I was referring to the bathroom scene and in one of the many threads about that, you can see my reasoning for why it was not "attempted rape." Attempted rape REQUIRES intent (you cannot attempt something without intent, by definition). Spike's intentions were never to rape Buffy.
That's a large topic in itself, and I'd love to talk to you about it in a more appropriate thread, but I'll try to stick to the theme of this thread here.
And Buffy didn't know the Spike that killed hundreds of people. From what I can tell, he didn't really kill more than he had to in Sunnydale...
This is the point I was trying to make, Zobo : that fans of vampire characters seem to forget the main aspect of their nature "“ they're vampires.
I think most devotees of vampire lore accept that a vampire feeds every night. But let's say Spike is ultra rare and only feeds (kills a human) once a month. That's 30 times less than most people would put his kill rate at. Let's also say, for ease of calculation, that Spike is only 100 years old. That's 1,200 months, therefore 1,200 people he's murdered. And again, that's probably 30 times smaller than the actual total. And one more point, that's only people he killed to feed off...
So are you saying Buffy didn't know Spike was a vampire? (again, teasing.)
By your reasoning, every did who actually DOES go to detention at my sister's school proves they feel bad about whatever they did
No, I'm not saying that at all. I am saying that by accepting her punishment FAITH felt bad about what she'd done. Did you miss her whole breaking down in Angel's arms in the fight in the rain soaked alley, begging him to kill her? She wanted to die because she didn't think she could live with the guilt. He talked her round, showed her that it is better to try to atone, even if that is not really possible, than to take the quick way out. Spending those years incarcerated is Faith's way of trying to pay for her crimes. (I'm not saying she was right to do it this way, only that it is what she believed was the right thing at the time)
yes, Faith had a tough childhood. But lots of people do. Not all of them turn out to be psycho killers
Of course they don't. Thank God. It's amazing how people can endure such bestiality and not just overcome it, but rise above it. We're not trying to comment about people in general though, we are talking about Faith and why she does what she does. Her childhood and experiences are obviously a large factor in that. They're not an excuse, they are a reason.
Abuse victims do not have the right to do whatever the hell we want just because we were abused.
Totally agree. If only this were a perfect world. The sad fact is that for every survivor of abuse then there are others who are destroyed by it, who either dwell forever in that shame and torment, or worse, repeat it. (a heartbreaking statistical fact.)
Thankfully, you, like me, seem to have managed to cope with your past of physical abuse. Some people are not so lucky.
Thatt's Spike saying he doesn't want to destroy the world. Faith knew that the Mayor's ultimate plan was to take over the world. Yet she willingly went along with it. Spike makes it clear in Becoming part 2, he wouldn't. I don't have a blind spot for Spike. I know he's a good person
I'm a Spike fan too, so I'm not personally attacking him, just using him as illustration because you know him better. Could have as easily used Angel, or Anya, or Willow, etc.
You say "I know he's a good person." Er, no. That is one of the points (and reason for its title) of the "becoming" storyline. In these episodes he "becomes" one. At last he has to draw a line in the sand and finally finds out that beneath the monster there is a desire to be a good person. He reaches a pivotal moment and then has to make a choice. He makes the right choice.
Faith doesn't reach her own pivotal moment until that encounter with Angel and then Buffy. Once she does, she too makes the right choice.
And Spike's reason for not wanting to destroy the world in that quote from him is that he likes it as it is, with "Billions of people walking around like Happy Meals on legs." That is not a good man speaking. That's someone who's evil saying they like things to go on the way they are, where he can kill and feed off whoever he wants. He doesn't want true demons back because he'd lose his place at the top of the food chain...
I didn't have any real indication that Faith wasn't just a dumb bitch by the end of season 3.
Each to their own, Zobo. I accept that your opinion of Faith is the opposite of mine, and actually approve of you passionately putting your case. However, I think your choice of phrase here demeans you, though. Thought you were better than that.
Do you think you use it because Faith is so BA, awesome, and hot that you wan to like her?
Hmm. A good question. Made me sit back and think for quite a while.
Did I want to like Faith? The answer is no. I simply did. Didn't make a conscious choice about it. Did you have to actively decide to like Spike? No. I guess I like Faith because I can identify with many elements of her character, some of them obvious ones and some of them personal ones that this really isn't the place to discuss them publicly.
And the whole "I was abused, feel my hard shell" thing proves how weak she is.
Yes, it is what defines her character.
If I had to pick something that would make Faith be harder to forgive than everyone else is that she's a slayer. The slayer is supposed to be the leader... the slayer is supposed to fight on the side of good... an Faith spat on that idea. The whole show is built around that idea so people find it difficult to forgive Faith. She turned against everything being a slayer means.
The very reason the character of Faith was written in the first place is to provide counterpoint to Buffy. Faith was intended to be the example of what could happen if there was no inner strength in a Slayer, if they weren't so well adjusted or loved. Look at almost any aspect of Buffy and Faith has the opposite. That is by design. It was meant to provoke this kind of debate, this introspection into what makes some people "good" and other people "bad."
I haven't forgiven Faith because I quite honestly don't think she's all that sorry. I think she'd do it all the same way if she had a choice.
While I can perfectly understand you not liking her I simply can't understand this statement. Either you only took in the show on its most superficial level or you are letting your hatred do the talking.
---------- Post added at 08:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:23 PM ----------
No, he wasn't innocent at all. Sure, Giles didn't know that but it's shown to the viewers that Ben called the Queller demon in Listening to Fear and later decided to help Glory perform the ritual and doom our world in the process.
True.
That however opens a debate about levels of complicity, and of whether it is justifiable to do whatever is necessary for personal survival.
