Faith More Mature Than Buffy?

white avenger

white avenger

white avenger
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At an award ceremony at Harvard, joss made the statement that, "Faith was supposed to be a more mature version of Buffy, and Spike was supposed to be a more mature version of Angel. Do you agree with that? I can see where it might be said that Faith is more WORLDLY than Buffy is, at least during Season 3, when they interacted the most, but not more mature. As for Spike and Angel, the two men were certainly different, especially as Angelus and pre-chip Spike, but I can't see either as being noticeably more mature than the other.


Day 3. 27 more days to go.
 
Ok, I'm going to look at this from the stand point where Faith is on her road to redemption and Spike is gotten his soul. If you look at it that way I think they are more aware of their flaws. More accepting of who they are and what their callings mean to them. I don't think they are as bogged down by their pasts, at least not outwordly so.

If that makes them mature, then I can see it.
 
MinwaraYana
MinwaraYana
[No message]
Nix
Nix
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In my opinion, Faith is more worldly, but Buffy is more mature. Buffy can handle things more maturely, but Faith has experienced the dark side of the world more.

About Spike and Angel, I really can't tell too.
 
I wouldn't say so, not as far as Faith's concerned, and not in the early seasons. Faith is more confident of her place in the world, she's more aware of her image and the image she portrays to the world. But I don't think that makes her anymore mature than Buffy. Buffy is more aware of her responsibilities than Faith ever was, and probably ever will be. She knows what's expected of her, and she uses her position and strength to help those she holds dear. Faith uses hers to have fun, and it almost cost her her life.
 
With regard to Faith and Buffy, I think that come season seven, Faith is more mature than Buffy. At least for a short time. I watched Empty Places a couple of days ago and some of the comments Buffy made in THAT scene were certainly pathetic and immature, the ones directed at or about Faith, in particular. So with that in mind I agree. Not sure how I feel about the other seasons though.

However, a couple episodes later I'd say they are back on an even keel. I just wish Buffy had said something suggesting this herself, at least on camera. But I can live without that.

With regard to the earlier seasons, and Angel and Spike, um, I'll be back 😉
 
MinwaraYana
MinwaraYana
Yeah, immature Buffy's comments.
S
Spike Angelus
Forgot all about the comments.
Kean said:
Ok, I'm going to look at this from the stand point where Faith is on her road to redemption and Spike is gotten his soul. If you look at it that way I think they are more aware of their flaws. More accepting of who they are and what their callings mean to them. I don't think they are as bogged down by their pasts, at least not outwordly so.

If that makes them mature, then I can see it.
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I see what you mean. Angel didn't want his soul, Spike did, and that's a mature decision. Faith knew that she had done wrong, and needed to redeem herself. Also a mature decision. I'm not sure if Buffy or Angel would have made those choices if they were in Spike's and Faith's shoes.
 
M
Megalita
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Ok, I think that at the time when Faith was first introduced, her character was more mature than Buffy's. She'd been around, lived on her own and seen more of the world and that definitely makes a person grow up. As far as when she returned as a reformed rogue Slayer in Season 7, I think Buffy was more mature. Buffy'd been through so much, and even though Faith had spent time in prison (which will definitely harden a person), Buffy had learned a lot more about what it meant to take care of others and so I think she was more mature.

As far as Spike and Angel, I do think Spike was more mature. Angel was broody and pouty, like a teenager or someone in their early 20's can sometimes be. Spike was the type to shrug things off a little easier, which makes him seem more mature in my eyes.
 
S
Spike Angelus
[No message]
Yeah I've always thought that Buffy was more mature than Faith, weirdly enough, even though Faith has had more experience/bad/good.
Buffy always more or less acted like a grown up, Faith was always wanting fun.
 
Faith never became mature person. She was complicated, very very, but she was never ready for responsobility, like we see in the season 7, she is not all that happy that she has to be the boss of the potentials until Buffy says to her she has to be and leaves - then she has no other choice. Faith wanted to live a full life, she liked being a slayer, that was the one thing that made her more special. And Spike mature then Angel, I disagree. Spike was mature, he becamed more mature in season 5,6 and 7, but I think Angel was matured.
 
PrincessBuffy16 said:
Faith never became mature person. She was complicated, very very, but she was never ready for responsobility, like we see in the season 7, she is not all that happy that she has to be the boss of the potentials until Buffy says to her she has to be and leaves - then she has no other choice. Faith wanted to live a full life, she liked being a slayer, that was the one thing that made her more special. And Spike mature then Angel, I disagree. Spike was mature, he becamed more mature in season 5,6 and 7, but I think Angel was matured.
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I think Faith had to have matured in order to have wanted to redeem herself. If she had never matured she never would have wanted to be a good person. She would have stayed as Faith from season three, and she was a totally different person in season seven.

I don't think her not wanting to lead makes her any less mature either. And I'm not even entirely sure that she didn't want to lead them. What she didn't want was for people, mainly Buffy, to think that was her intention in the first place.

And sometimes I think she embraced her role as the Slayer much more than Buffy did. Despite what happened afterwards, I think that Faith's attitude and Buffy's experience of it, stuck with Buffy.

I think opinions will differ widely on this because people have different ideas of what it is to be 'mature', which makes it all the more interesting 🙂
 
PrincessBuffy16 said:
Faith never became mature person. She was complicated, very very, but she was never ready for responsobility, like we see in the season 7, she is not all that happy that she has to be the boss of the potentials until Buffy says to her she has to be and leaves - then she has no other choice.
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I think that you might be selling Faith short. She might have been a reluctant leader, but, when the need arose, as in Season 4 of Angel and Season 7 of Buffy, she not only led, she did it quite well. When Buffy was thrown out in "Empty Places," Faith followed her outside to be sure that Buffy understood that, even though she had just questioned her strategy, it was not out of any desire to usurp her role as leader. Faith took charge when Buffy left because someone had to do it and she was the most qualified person left. Being reluctant to accept the role of leader in no way equates as being unable to handle the role.
 
miromurr said:
When was this? After both series had ended, or sometime before?
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I comes from a speech that Joss gave when accepting an award for his lifetime achievements in humanism, 2009. The speech is long but well worth watching. I think, if I remember correctly, the part where Joss talks about Faith and Spike comes in response to a audience question in the second half.

Joss Whedon - Joss Whedon: Cultural Humanist | Free Lecture | Forum Network from PBS and NPR

I do think that Faith and Spike are the more mature. If you think back to season 3 Faith had an understanding of her power and calling that Buffy just didn't get at that point. I'm not saying that Faith expressed this understanding in a rational manner, but she did understand it better than Buffy. It took till season seven for Buffy to get to the understaning and acceptance of her calling that Faith had in season three. I think it's Faith's maturaty that allows herself to go to prison and stay there, it's Faith's maturity that allows her to bond with the Potentials, It's Faith's maturity that allows her to join forces with Giles and go and help other new slayers that are having difficulties in season 8.

Spike - do I even have to argue that one? Spike, gets to the point where he goes to fight for his soul because it is the right thing to do, because he doesn't want to be a monster anymore. He also learns from his mistakes. I think it's important to note that Spike was incredibly lucky to get the Chip and to have Buffy in his life and that these two things have given him a huge advantage and allowed him to mature at an excellerated pace.
 
white avenger
white avenger
Thanks for the reference. I have it recorded, but I don't have the source.
I definitely feel like Buffy was more mature than Faith just in terms of accepting responsibility and making the tough decisions. She had her moments in regards to trying to find the fun but she typically balanced those needs with the responsibilities she had. Faith was always about just having a good time and not accepting responsibility. I do feel that this changed somewhat for Faith later on but Buffy is more levelheaded. As for Angel and Spike, I feel like they are both remarkably immature, especially in how they interact with each other. This one is tougher for me. I feel like because of the way Spike was raised he was very child like and kind of retained that even as a vamp. I dont know. Hard to say.
 
I agree with Flannen that there was a very noticable change in Faith's maturity through the years.

In Season Three of Buffy, Faith stabbed that guy and just let it go. Buffy was more mature in the sense that she knew what Faith had done was wrong, but she still said nothing about it.

In Season Seven, Faith took charge over Buffy, and Buffy reacted badly because she was so used to being the leader. When someone else, especially someone she is often compared to by her friends, takes over, she gets mad, understandably. But what she did - completely abondon everyone - was a little melodramatic.
 
Willow-Tree said:
In Season Seven, Faith took charge over Buffy, and Buffy reacted badly because she was so used to being the leader. When someone else, especially someone she is often compared to by her friends, takes over, she gets mad, understandably. But what she did - completely abondon everyone - was a little melodramatic.
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I'm not sure exactly what you mean here, or if it's just that we interpreted the same episode differently. Buffy was heart broken that her friends had betrayed her in this fashion, not angry. And she didn't abandon the group, they threw her out. If she had actually abandoned them, she would never have returned. She never said "I told you so," to the group in general or to Faith specifically, because she was right about there actually being something valuable at the vineyard. She didn't even return, I don't think, with as much the desire to reclaim the role of leader, but rather because she knew that, even with Spike's help and the scythe, she couldn't beat the First Evil alone. When she did return, Faith was in no condition to lead, and several of the Potentials were badly injured so she had no choice but to re-assume command.

As far as actually being a leader, I seriously doubt that Buffy ever wanted it. That was exactly why Giles had left Sunnydale in Season 6. He felt that Buffy wasn't accepting the full load as leader or parent, and never would as long as he was there to do it for her. (the irony in that is that he didn't defend her right to lead when it really counted. The only one to do that was the monster that Giles had tried to have murdered)
 
I
InsaneMystic
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Faith is certainly less mature than Buffy. She has definitely seen more of the world, experienced dark side...but this doesn't make you mature. We saw what it did to Faith. She was too young to know this world the way she did.Anyway, season 4("Angel") Faith truly amazed me cause i like persons who never forget someone who did them a favor once.And Angel did more than a favor. He saved her soul.

Buffy has shown she is mature many times. Especially during the first three years where she goes from 16 to 18 years old and she faces dangers and problems that she had never dreamed of.I don't know about the rest of the seasons because i haven't watched them yet.

And Angel less mature than Spike??? Wrong,Joss, definitely wrong.
Angel was very mature when we meet him.But he has a hard time dealing with people, curse and stuff, and yeah sometimes we see him acting like a little kid...but all men are boys deep inside 🙂 and we like that!!!
 
yea gotta go w/the whole faith being more wordly.

But definently NOT more mature as (at least in 'buffy') she simply CAN'T accept critisisms about herself. and lashes out in anger/violence when someone points out that she is wrong (this is a simplification but you guys get what i mean right?).

as for spike/angel. it all depends at what point in the series but yea overall i'd say i dont see one being more mature than the other.
 
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