Faith's Fighting Ability

[thetopher]

So in 'Revelations' Buffy and Faith have their first smack down.

Buffy's a veteran slayer of about three years who has had a Watcher to help train her, plus quite a few awesome vamp 'kills' under her belt. (The Master, Spike, Angelus etc.)
Faith has been a slayer for at best six months? (Since Belonging Part 1)

So how come Buffy doesn't wipe the floor with her?

 

[white avenger]

So in 'Revelations' Buffy and Faith have their first smack down.

So how come Buffy doesn't wipe the floor with her?

Because Faith was that good, but another factor, almost as important as how the level of Faith's fighting skill, is that, by that time, the girls had been training and patrolling together for quite a while. Faith knew most, if not all, of Buffy's favorite moves, just as Buffy knew hers. The two Slayers were so evenly matched that, ultimately, the fight could have gone either way.

(For those of you who read my original post here, I can only say, "oops, wrong episode." but the comparison of the two Slayers remains true. They were each so familiar with the other's fighting style, and both in the peak of physical condition. Buffy wasn't all that much better a fighter at that point. By Season 7, yes, but that was years later.)

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I posit that the demonic gift which brings the slayer the memories and abilities also passes on inherent slayer kills. Sort of a slayer DNA. So, as Buffy got the residual training from the slayers previous, when Faith received the boon she also received that of Buffy and Kendra, thus making her alittle bit better.

 

[white avenger]

I posit that the demonic gift which brings the slayer the memories and abilities also passes on inherent slayer kills. Sort of a slayer DNA. So, as Buffy got the residual training from the slayers previous, when Faith received the boon she also received that of Buffy and Kendra, thus making her alittle bit better.

That's as good an explanation as any, plus some sort of inherent fighting skill seems to likewise just just seem to come with the package with any and all supernatural figures in the Whedonverse, hense, even a total milquetoast like William, who almost certainly never struck anyone in anger in his life, became, on turning, a good enough fighter to take advantage of his "one good day" to kill his first Slayer in China. The Slayer, whose powers come from the Shadow Men's manipulations of the first girl, becomes part of the demonic trait of being born with an aptitude for martial arts/street fighting techniques.

 

[Aud]

Not to be overly cynical, but I think they just wanted to drag out what would inevitably be an awesome, albeit somewhat gratuitous, scene. I feel as though they do this quite a bit throughout both BTVS and ATS, conveniently strengthening or weakening certain characters in order to be able to do certain fight scenes or to keep certain characters alive. The reasoning could either be as some sort of fan service (see, e.g., JW was fully capable of doing this in The Avengers, where we get a bunch of really cool one-on-one fight scenes between the various heroes, even if the lengthy scenes don't really serve any broader narrative purpose except to play out fans' fantasies), or because the creators were willing to compromise the internal logic of the show to make a broader point (e.g., Buffy struggles to take out one Turok-Han, but the newly activated slayers take them on like regular old vamps. JW himself has acknowledged this inconsistency). Personally, I think the fight between Buffy and Faith was more of the former type rather than the latter. Just think how disappointed fans would be if Buffy had ended it really quickly? I really do think she was the more seasoned and skilled fighter between the two. I'm not saying she should've completely wiped the floor with Faith, but I do think she was the stronger of the two slayers at that point, and that scene asks us to lie to ourselves at least a little bit.

 

[thetopher]

Yeah, I'm more looking for an 'in-universe' explanation rather than a 'that's what the writers wanted' explanation, because that's more interesting to me. There's a fancy term for the difference that I can't remember.

I posit that the demonic gift which brings the slayer the memories and abilities also passes on inherent slayer kills. Sort of a slayer DNA. So, as Buffy got the residual training from the slayers previous, when Faith received the boon she also received that of Buffy and Kendra, thus making her alittle bit better.

That's a pretty good in-verse' explanation, but the problem being I don't remember Kendra being that good. She attacked Buffy by surprise, with a weapon, and barely scraped a draw.
Also Kendra was significatly not as a good a fighter as Spike in 'What's My Line pt 2' (she was losing during their tussle) and got killed by Drusilla pretty easily in Becoming.

I suppose we don't know if Faith was a Potential or not back in Boston. Maybe her Watcher had some time to train her before she was called. But then Kendra was trained from a very young age which would suggest that she should have excellent training in comparison to buffy.

I guess the only tangible character thing I can point to is that Faith loves to fight, to scrap, and to slay. She enjoys it on some level even if she's fighting an ally like Buffy. She draws on her emotions during a fight (her anger, slayer instincts) more than Buffy (who's a much more restrianed slayer) which means that she's maybe less conflicted?
Also explains why she was a fraction slower than Buffy in realising that Finch wasn't a bad guy...

 

[Blaze]

Two reasons for me,

1-as WA said, they were very familiar with each other's fighting style. They trained, patrolled, hung out together. Faith knew Buffy's weakness and Buffy knew Faith's. See how Faith has a much harder time going again Spike or Angel, whom she doesn't really know. I think that slayer connections increases that even more.

2-They were holding back. Maybe not in the sense of holding back every punch or every move, but neither wanted to kill the other. There was too much hesitation in the fight.

 

[white avenger]

Not to be overly cynical, but I think they just wanted to drag out what would inevitably be an awesome, albeit somewhat gratuitous, scene.

Certainly, the entire fight was all about dramatic effect. Buffy could have just set up an ambush and nailed Faith at 25 yards with a crossbow, but then we would have missed what was probably one of the best half dozen fights of the whole series.

2-They were holding back. Maybe not in the sense of holding back every punch or every move, but neither wanted to kill the other. There was too much hesitation in the fight.

This is a good point, and something that obviously enforced the reasoning for a Fuffy romantic relationship. I think that, basically, Buffy and Faith liked and respected each other, and always would, even when Faith was bad. I personally suspect that Buffy has been making a conscious effort to NOT like or trust Faith ever since Season 3.

 

[Aud]

Yeah, I'm more looking for an 'in-universe' explanation rather than a 'that's what the writers wanted' explanation, because that's more interesting to me. There's a fancy term for the difference that I can't remember.

Haha ok ok my less trollish answer is similar to what's been mentioned earlier in this thread, about the inherited abilities of slayers. I also agree that Faith has a much more raw, visceral, fighting style, which may match up well against Buffy's style, which is more on the scrappy/improvisational side.

 

[Blaze]

I personally suspect that Buffy has been making a conscious effort to NOT like or trust Faith ever since Season 3.

Especially since Buffy is usually so forgiving... I mean come on, half of her friends are murderers, the other half have almost destroyed the world. What about Faith makes her so different that Buffy goes to such an extent not to forgive her. Definitely seems like a conscious effort to me, which is easily explained by Buffy actually caring way more for Faith than she leads on. To care about what a person does to you, you first need to care about the person.

 

[white avenger]

Especially since Buffy is usually so forgiving... I mean come on, half of her friends are murderers, the other half have almost destroyed the world. What about Faith makes her so different that Buffy goes to such an extent not to forgive her. Definitely seems like a conscious effort to me, which is easily explained by Buffy actually caring way more for Faith than she leads on. To care about what a person does to you, you first need to care about the person.

It would make a great story, if Joss ever wanted to write it, to have Buffy and Faith stuck together somewhere, anything from a desert island to a parallel dimension, where they had no way to survive without depending on and trusting each other completely.

Maybe they could bury the hatchet and go back to the friendship that they were beginning to have before the Assistant Mayor got in the way of Faith's stake (or was it an arrow?)

 

[The Bronze]

Especially since Buffy is usually so forgiving... I mean come on, half of her friends are murderers, the other half have almost destroyed the world. What about Faith makes her so different that Buffy goes to such an extent not to forgive her. Definitely seems like a conscious effort to me, which is easily explained by Buffy actually caring way more for Faith than she leads on. To care about what a person does to you, you first need to care about the person.

Buffy answers this over on Angel in Sanctuary:

"I gave you every chance! I tried so hard to help you, and you spat on me. My life was just something for you to play with. Angel - Riley - anything that you could take from me - you took. I've lost battles before - but nobody else has -ever- made me a victim."

And Faiths charming response was to explain how hard it is to be the one making Buffy a victim:

"And you can't stand that. You're all about control. You have no idea what it's like on the other side! Where nothing's in control, nothing makes sense! There is just pain and hate and nothing you do means anything. You can't even.."

Or as a quick translation - I assaulted, raped, kidnapped or attempted to kill your mum, best friends and partners but stop whining and think how hard it was for me.

That's why Buffy takes a lot longer to even think about forgiving or trusting Faith and it's perfectly understandable. I think she's pretty much there at the start of this Season.

For the actual topic I suspect a combination of things. Training and familiarity as mention above would almost certainly play a part. I'd also guess that Buffy had no real interest in hurting Faith but that Faith's sadistic side might have been showing early and giving her an edge where she was enjoying hurting Buffy.

 

[thetopher]

Or as a quick translation - I assaulted, raped, kidnapped or attempted to kill your mum, best friends and partners but stop whining and think how hard it was for me.

Interesting interpretation, although you seem to have deliberatly miss out a few things.

Firstly, as of the end of 'Who Are You' Buffy is fully aware of Faith's self-hatred for what she's done/let herself become (beating 'herself' and screaming that she was a 'stupid, murderous, bitch').
Also see Buffy's reaction when Riley says 'She's had her fun.' 'Yeah, fun.'
So that should inform Buffy's reaction, but it doesn't. She knows that Faith feel sorry for what she did but she just wants payback- she has little interest in genuine apologies.

Secondly, and more importantly, you deliberately missed off the end of Faith's speech 'Tell me how to make it better.' She knows that she hurt Buffy and is sorry.

Also there's the fact that Angel wants Faith to face her demons and get better and Buffy just wants Faith to go to jail. So what does Faith do? She goes to jail, she turns herself in and remains there because that's what Buffy wants. She only busts out when Angel is at risk.

Thirdly- you miss the inference in Faith's speech that Buffy has been a victim once and that Faith has been a victim her entire life- she comes from poverty, a broken home, no family, no friends, no watcher, physical abuse.
She knows full well what its like to be Buffy at that moment (angry at the injustice of it all- and wanting to punish somebody for it), but Buffy doesn't know what its like to be her (lost, truly alone, out of control, self-hating, wanting to punish yourself)
But Buffy will in later seasons. and despite the support of her friends she doesn't handle it well at all.

But y'know, never let the truth get in the way of an opinion. 😉

That's why Buffy takes a lot longer to even think about forgiving or trusting Faith and it's perfectly understandable. I think she's pretty much there at the start of this Season.

Nope, I don't buy it. After helping out during the apocalpyse in S7 Buffy still doesn't think that Faith has changed.
In 'No Future For You' she just assumes that Faith has betrayed her again, and attacks her. Then when Giles leaves Faith almost all his possessions Buffy feels betrayed.

In S9 Buffy still thinks that Faith is selfish and self-absorbed (after she rings her and Faith doesn't remember/know who Dawn is) even though at that moment she's rather selflessly taking care of Buffy's ex. But whatever.

I see no new reasoning for Buffy to suddenly revise her long-held opinion of Faith at the start of S10. She's just grateful for the assist during the fight and that she got Giles back. I never thought for a moment that Buffy's offer to Faith was genuine- or reflected some fundamental change of heart- maybe that's why Faith turned it down.

Frankly, compared to everybody else that Buffy has forgiven quickly and without question- it isn't understandable at all.

 

[Blaze]

Good explanation thetopher. There has to be a deeper root to the problem than "Faith made me a victim".

 

[The Bronze]

Good explanation thetopher. There has to be a deeper root to the problem than "Faith made me a victim".

It's the level of victimisation and the source of that victimisation that's the root of the problem. They're up on the roof and under fire during this brief conversation so Buffy doesn't really get to elaborate. I'll take a stab at it though. Firstly Faith is the only other slayer on the planet and it's fairly reasonable of Buffy to assume that she might be on her side, or at the very least not in her way. Instead Faith sides with a demon in an attempt to kill everyone in Buffy's school and mostly likely town. That's a massive betrayal and would grate on anyone. That's not the end of it though. Not only is Faith helping the enemy, she takes up a personal crusade to inflict as much damage as possible on Buffy. There's no limits with Faith either. It's not a case of a quick kill or a beating, no it's full on abuse. Would she torture Buffy? Certainly looked like it when she thought Angelus was with her. Had all the equipment in place and was having a ball talking about it. Target her friends? No problem, Willow held hostage and assaulted, Xander assaulted and who knows what was going to happen next. Target her family? Yeah again no problem for Faith. Check for holding Joyce as prisoner. Target her partners? Absolutely and with relish. Try to destroy Angel and replace with Angelus, yep. Try to simply destroy Angel a second time, check. Use deception to "enjoy" Riley, again no problem. Finally to actually rip Buffy's consciousness from her body, so that she can take her body for a joy ride, again no problem.

It's as deep and personal as you can possibly get.

@thetopher It's a case of once bitten twice shy. When Faith wakes from her coma in Season 4 Buffy's first reaction is that she wants to help Faith, despite what the others are saying. She's got a pretty big back catalogue of reasons not to at this point but that's her reaction anyway. Unfortunately this attitude is stomped on by Faith taking her body and again terrorising the people Buffy cares for.

It's not fair to try to break down why logically Buffy should be forgiving Faith and at what stage based on other people and different circumstances. Faith terrorising Buffy is a sustained and personal attack which most people would never even contemplate forgiving and forgetting.

Personally I think Buffy has largely moved on by Season 10, with a few inevitable niggling doubts left over. I think the offer was genuine and that it might have done Faith some good to have accepted and tried out a life with the Scoobies for a bit.

 

[VisionBoy]

I also think Faith had more rage to tap into.
I finished reading Angel ATF recently and at one point Angel says to Gunn something like "You could have killed me Gunn, even when you were human; you just had to be angry enough."

I think someone with slayer strength, plus the level of feral aggression that Faith built up, would be hard for anyone to take in hand to hand combat.

When you think that slayer power has demonic origins, I guess it kind of makes sense that Faith would be so hard to beat despite being less experienced.
Kinda like Dark Willow. Sure her magic is usually used for good, but when she took it to such a dark place, she seemed stronger, almost unstoppable... though it came with a lot of self-hatred and a major lack of self-preservation instinct, which could also be said of Faith.

 

[thetopher]

It's not fair to try to break down why logically Buffy should be forgiving Faith and at what stage based on other people and different circumstances. Faith terrorising Buffy is a sustained and personal attack which most people would never even contemplate forgiving and forgetting.

Yeah, you want to talk about fairness. All of what you're describing really did happen years before Buffy and Faith meet up again. Buffy knows that Faith has been in prison all that time (which is exactly what Buffy wanted) but Buffy still seems to think its all some elaborate trick on Faith's part.

Compare that to Buffy trusting Spike and Willow mere months after they've tried to hurt her and really you have to wonder about Buffy's double standard.

But y'know what, I accept that in S7 Buffy is understandably wary and suspicious of Faith and tries her best to work alongside her, with some mixed results. In the end they seem to come to some sort of acceptance/understanding.

Eighteen months later, (that's getting into 5 years after Faith has done any actual harm to Buffy) and after fighting side by side in the literal mouth of hell we see that those feelings didn't stick at all.
We're not even talking friendship here or friendliness or even just being cordial. We're talking about not jumping to the 'so, you're evil again' conclusion straight away.

And afterwards Buffy isn't even the least bit sorry when she finds out that Faith was actually telling the truth and was in fact working with Giles, she just feels victimised and 'tricked' somehow.
Utterly self-absorbed.
I came to the conclusion, after that, that there probably will never be any chance of reconciliation between them, at least not from Buffy's end. It's pretty sad.

Personally I think Buffy has largely moved on by Season 10, with a few inevitable niggling doubts left over. I think the offer was genuine and that it might have done Faith some good to have accepted and tried out a life with the Scoobies for a bit.

To be honest I don't know where Buffy's mind is when it comes to forgiving past wrongs in S10 so far. Soulless Spike wasn't that bad? At least he was better than her Dad?
I mean there are abandonment issues and then there's just being a nut-job.
At the moment Faith is better off being away from all the crap going on with the Scoobys and getting on with her own life. I'm glad that unlike some other people who are on the 'repentant' path Faith doesn't need validation by hanging out with Buffy all the damn time. 😉


Anyway, back on topic. Faith is kinda handy in a fight, huh? 🙂

Maybe she does have anger issues and lots of natural agression that make her pretty fearsome. Maybe she is a sadistic sociopath who gets off on inflicting pain (even to her allies) and deep down and all that 'going good' stuff really is a really, really long con.

Actually, doesn't somebody say that the slayer 'forges strength from pain' (is that the vision quest bit from 'Intervention'?).
So in that case pain is what makes a slayer such a good fighter. Like when Buffy gets angst-y she can draw on those painful emotions to kick ass.

I imagine that Faith has boatloads of pain to share and that explains her strength.

 

[The Bronze]

I've not got anything off the top of my head to back this up but I get the feeling that Faiths emotions / instabilities work as a double edge sword in fighting terms. I think it gives her an edge to begin with. She starts at full throttle and that can take better fighters by surprise. After a certain stage it works against her though, she either expends too much energy or loses focus on her environment and what she's doing.

 

[Mr Trick]

Yeah, you want to talk about fairness. All of what you're describing really did happen years before Buffy and Faith meet up again. Buffy knows that Faith has been in prison all that time (which is exactly what Buffy wanted) but Buffy still seems to think its all some elaborate trick on Faith's part.

Compare that to Buffy trusting Spike and Willow mere months after they've tried to hurt her and really you have to wonder about Buffy's double standard.

But y'know what, I accept that in S7 Buffy is understandably wary and suspicious of Faith and tries her best to work alongside her, with some mixed results. In the end they seem to come to some sort of acceptance/understanding.

Eighteen months later, (that's getting into 5 years after Faith has done any actual harm to Buffy) and after fighting side by side in the literal mouth of hell we see that those feelings didn't stick at all.
We're not even talking friendship here or friendliness or even just being cordial. We're talking about not jumping to the 'so, you're evil again' conclusion straight away.

And afterwards Buffy isn't even the least bit sorry when she finds out that Faith was actually telling the truth and was in fact working with Giles, she just feels victimised and 'tricked' somehow.
Utterly self-absorbed.
I came to the conclusion, after that, that there probably will never be any chance of reconciliation between them, at least not from Buffy's end. It's pretty sad.



To be honest I don't know where Buffy's mind is when it comes to forgiving past wrongs in S10 so far. Soulless Spike wasn't that bad? At least he was better than her Dad?
I mean there are abandonment issues and then there's just being a nut-job.
At the moment Faith is better off being away from all the crap going on with the Scoobys and getting on with her own life. I'm glad that unlike some other people who are on the 'repentant' path Faith doesn't need validation by hanging out with Buffy all the damn time. 😉


Anyway, back on topic. Faith is kinda handy in a fight, huh? 🙂

Maybe she does have anger issues and lots of natural agression that make her pretty fearsome. Maybe she is a sadistic sociopath who gets off on inflicting pain (even to her allies) and deep down and all that 'going good' stuff really is a really, really long con.

Actually, doesn't somebody say that the slayer 'forges strength from pain' (is that the vision quest bit from 'Intervention'?).
So in that case pain is what makes a slayer such a good fighter. Like when Buffy gets angst-y she can draw on those painful emotions to kick ass.

I imagine that Faith has boatloads of pain to share and that explains her strength.

Can't campare her friendship with Willow to whatever she might have withFaith. Willow made one screw up, was clearly sorry and had gone through the steps with Giles to redeeming herself. And with Spike, Buffy at least knows that he will fight the good fight even if she might struggle to trust him personally. She only had ever had mostly bad experiences with Faith in the past.

 

[Halfrek]

I actually think Faith is marginally better than Buffy with regards to her fighting ability. I always remember watching Angel and Faith's fight scene in Five by Five when he rescues Wes and thought she was electrifying. Faith's lifestyle has always meant she is fighting for survival in a way Buffy wouldn't understand. Buffy has friends and a Watcher to help and guide her, she has some form of comfort and security at home with her mum. Faith has no security, no help, no safe haven...all she has is herself and her powers to keep her afloat. So she's honed her fighting style probably more so than Buffy. Life is one constant battle for her whereas Buffy is able to section of her slayer duties and keep her fighting relatively separate from other aspects of her life.

Buffy's line when she is talking to Kendra in season 2 comes to mind here: 'My emotions give me power. They're total assets'. I think Buffy fights her best when she has a personal incentive or connection to what's she's fighting for, she is a different Slayer when she's fighting for the lives of her friends or fighting to protect Angel. Maybe that's why Faith is such a threat, she has so much passion and anger in her she just is explosive. Fighting is her release of emotion and considering Faith's inner battles and pent up anger..I think she is just as powerful if not more so than Buffy at least in a fight.