Fan Hated vs. Fan Favorite Characters

[Himiko]

In no particular order.

Favourites:
Lorne
Cordelia
Lilah
Angel (on his own series- used to really hate him, but he's grown on me)
Jenny
Giles
Drusilla
Anya
Clem

Least favourite:

Season 7 Buffy is definitely up there. I like Buffy in earlier seasons- sometimes she acts selfishly or questionably, but she's human and fallible, it works. In Season 7, I wanted to reach through the TV and punch her every time she started one of her Big Dramatic Speeches.

Spike - I enjoy him in Season 2, and he actually used to be one of my favourite characters, since I've started rewatching Season 4 onwards, I have been surprised by how much I don't like him.

Warren- no surprises there

Wesley - never really warmed to him

 

[Lyri]

Favorites:

Connor
Lindsey
Buffy
Faith
Gwen
Xander
Dawn


Hates:

Spike
Willow
Harmony
Anya
Jasmine
Warren
Andrew

 

[itssmiletime]

[MENTION=8404]Blaze[/MENTION]: Buffy's racism can be traced with her utterly zero understanding of Jenny Calendar (hey, maybe she didn't tell you because gypsies are one of the most persecuted, stereotyped groups of the 20th century). She mocks Kendra's accent and way of life. In Restless, she makes some really stupid comments about Sineya's hair ('what type of impression am I trying to make in the workforce"). She can't stop herself making a "hood" reference to Robin Wood. Choa- An, a potential, is constantly degraded and belitted. I'm not saying Buffy is like a neo- nazi, but I do believe she has a lot of racism within her, and does nothing to try to overcome it.

Her ignorance is rampant throughout the series. She sincerely believes in Dead Man's Party and is truly surprised to witness her friends anger and resentment. She is ignorant in S4, particularly in The Yoko Factor, to think she can just order around her friends and tell them what to do when she hardly hanged out with them. In the Dark Willow arc, she does think she can talk down Willow, even though there is absolutely no way Willow is going to listen to Buffy. But in S7? Who has way too much unreasonable faith in the oh-so cliched tough love method? Who does absolutely nothing about Spike's trigger post Showtime? Her very dumb plan in Dirty Girls and Chosen? She loves the sound of her own voice, but really, it's not worth listening to.

 

[brooke2707]

I think the most confusing thing about this thread .. is the amount of people who hate buffy? I know she has flaws but i think they made her a very likable character.
She does have her ups and downs, but the reasons for Disliking her are just parts of the show that make us realise how hard buffy's life is

 

[Blaze]

[MENTION=8404]

Her ignorance is rampant throughout the series. She sincerely believes in Dead Man's Party and is truly surprised to witness her friends anger and resentment. She is ignorant in S4, particularly in The Yoko Factor, to think she can just order around her friends and tell them what to do when she hardly hanged out with them. In the Dark Willow arc, she does think she can talk down Willow, even though there is absolutely no way Willow is going to listen to Buffy. But in S7? Who has way too much unreasonable faith in the oh-so cliched tough love method? Who does absolutely nothing about Spike's trigger post Showtime? Her very dumb plan in Dirty Girls and Chosen? She loves the sound of her own voice, but really, it's not worth listening to.

I'm just starting with your second paragraph here because I misunderstood you're use of the term ignorant. I thought you were using it as a meaning of how uninformed she was about other cultures/race. My mistake, I just saw the term racist and associated ignorance to racism which isn't what you were trying to say. I still think that those events don't display Buffy's ignorance, it's not like she's trying to ignore the facts or is miss-informed about how things works. Her friends clearly placed her in the position of the leader so it was very clear that she had an alpha personality, I don't think that makes her ignorant. The examples you stated in the later seasons is more stupidity than ignorance to me, but that's just my personal opinion.

Buffy's racism can be traced with her utterly zero understanding of Jenny Calendar (hey, maybe she didn't tell you because gypsies are one of the most persecuted, stereotyped groups of the 20th century). She mocks Kendra's accent and way of life. In Restless, she makes some really stupid comments about Sineya's hair ('what type of impression am I trying to make in the workforce"). She can't stop herself making a "hood" reference to Robin Wood. Choa- An, a potential, is constantly degraded and belitted. I'm not saying Buffy is like a neo- nazi, but I do believe she has a lot of racism within her, and does nothing to try to overcome it.

The funny thing is that I would actually more so use the term ignorance in this paragraph instead of racism. I think nowadays racism is a tricky thing because you make one comment and a bunch of people jump to your throat saying it was racist (while the people blaming you are not even of such race). I'm obviously not making any excuses, racism is never acceptable, and I know all about this because I'm a minority and am faced with a lot of prejudices in my daily life. Problem here is that half of those examples were not Buffy being racist. In the case of Jenny, I don't think Buffy once judged her on her beliefs, her hatred came from the fact that she knew about Angel and didn't stop it. It never had to do about her being a gipsy, or else Buffy would not have been okay with Willow being a witch. Her mocking Kendra was very judgemental, but again I think it steams more from Buffy being ignorant of other ways of living. She becomes friends with Kendra later on, or at least respect her, so I don't think she's hating her race, but is just misinformed of her way of living. About Sineya, I'll give you that, it was a jerk move, but come on Buffy would have said at about anyone, no matter the race. I don't remember the hood reference with Robin, so I can't really comment, but again I view that as ignorance not racism. I know a lot of people who are racist and simply hate people of a certain race. Than I have friends who make stupid comments about my background because they think it's funny but it really isn't. I get a lot of borderline homophobic or racist jokes but never will I consider it racism or homophobia unless it is something that apply on an everyday basis. Buffy made a few comments over the span of 7 years, I truly don't think she is racist in any way, she simply made some mean comments that weren't well thought. Again with the potential, Buffy treated pretty much all of them like shit, it's not as if Choa-An was an exception.

 

[The Bronze]

@itssmiletime

I love Anya, Willow, Wesley, Darla, Jenny Calendar, Xander, Tara, Fred, Lorne, Joyce (she's grown on me), Lindsey, Doyle, etc.

I hate Buffy (ignorant, entitled, self righteous, arrogant, stupid, racist... hey she's like that guy on my way to uni each day who screams about the apocalypse, something about refugees, dunno, I try not to listen)

Just about all of those descriptions would fit your loved characters a lot better than Buffy. Ignorant (Joyce), arrogant (Willow) etc. The guy screaming about the apocalypse and refugees probably hasn't prevented various end of the world scenarios and taken in refugees.

Buffy's racism can be traced with her utterly zero understanding of Jenny Calendar (hey, maybe she didn't tell you because gypsies are one of the most persecuted, stereotyped groups of the 20th century)

That's a joke right? Buffy is a racist for being a bit agitated about Jenny withholding information that led to Angel being lost and Angelus being restored? Angel being someone she loved and Angelus being a genuine threat to the entire planet.

She mocks Kendra's accent and way of life. In Restless, she makes some really stupid comments about Sineya's hair ('what type of impression am I trying to make in the workforce")

Again this is nothing close to racist. People comment about hair and voices all the time. Not particularly called for but absolutely not racist.

She can't stop herself making a "hood" reference to Robin Wood.

Yeah this sucks. Stupid thing to say but again it doesn't make her a racist. Making a daft remark doesn't make you a racist.

I'm not saying Buffy is like a neo- nazi, but I do believe she has a lot of racism within her, and does nothing to try to overcome it.

She has no racism within her at all. She might have a few stereotypes in her head, which the vast majority of society also has. This in no way makes her a racist. She fights to save the entire planet, all races included. She shows initial interest in a relationship with Robin and later becomes friends with him. She has a relationship with Satsu. She puts up girls from around the world in her house free of charge.

I have no clue how you can have a hatred for Buffy off the back of a few mistakes and comments and a great love for Anya after thousands of years of massacring innocent people. Buffy is such a monster for meddling in the worlds affairs, she should just stand aside and watch it burn.

 

[Robb Stark]

I love Anya, Willow, Wesley, Darla, Jenny Calendar, Xander, Tara, Fred, Lorne, Joyce (she's grown on me), Lindsey, Doyle, etc.

I hate Buffy (ignorant, entitled, self righteous, arrogant, stupid, racist... hey she's like that guy on my way to uni each day who screams about the apocalypse, something about refugees, dunno, I try not to listen), Cordelia (an apathetic bully), Spike in S7 (really, for someone who yaps on about his glory murder days, the 'demon' within, he really is pathetic with all the puppy dog eyes and suck up tactics). I like him, however, when he is sarcastic, punk rock, sadist, insane self, like in School Hard, Lie To Me and Halloween. He was fun and liked the Sex Pistols and drank whiskey. What's not to like?

I don't know if it's fair to characterize Cordelia as an apathetic bully. She was in S1, but more than almost anyone else on the show, and certainly more some of the characters you listed, she shows a capacity to grow. Cordy doesn't start off as a very good person, but by her swan song in S5 of AtS, she's incredibly layered and matured. That's a positive trait. Characters do develop and evolve. Judging her entire character arc because of how she acts in the tenth grade seems a little unfair.

Also, in regards to Buffy's supposed "racism" with Jenny Calender...that seems to be more than a stretch. It's unfair to ignore the totality of circumstances involved. Jenny's decision not to inform Buffy of Angel's curse and everything it entailed had nothing to do with her culture or religious practices. And because of that, the world almost ended. That's not, in any way, shape or form, Buffy being a "racist".

 

[slayer6]

Favorites are: Buffy, Spike, Angel, Willow, Xander, Cordelia, Drusilla

Hated: Dawn, Kennedy, Riley,

---------- Post added at 10:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 PM ----------

Ok favs from angel are: Angel, Spike, Fred, Wesley, Cordy, Gunn, Lorne

Hates from Angel: Lindz, Kate, conner

 

[itssmiletime]

Okay... the whole Jenny Calendar situation is incredibly racist. For those who do not know, gypsies are one of the most persecuted, marginalised and stereotyped groups of people to ever exist. She is never allowed to explain her actions. She is never allowed to have her side heard. She is cut completely off from the scoobies. Of course she isn't going to tell anyone from the school who thinks it's so appropriate to have a dance where the students dress up from other cultures. Of course she isn't gonna tell the scoobies who mock videos from India for fun. The whole arc is utterly racist. And a 'bit agitated'? Really? She offers no protection whatsoever to Jenny even though it is quite clear that Angelus is hunting down anyone who is a threat to restoring his soul back. She goes into a classroom, in front of a students, and slams her head against a desk. (Really, she should have been expelled on the spot). She gives her the cold shoulder. And most of all, when she finds out that Jenny is feeling really, really bad about it? She says 'good' and later, after she dies, has the nerve to call her a friend. **** you Buffy, **** you.

And how did Jenny 'nearly let the world end?' The judge was already risen in Surprise. And by that logic, so is Buffy for not killing Angel in Innocence, as he tried to end the world in Becoming.

Seriously? By mocking Sinenya's hair, is incredibly racist and I can not believe people are denying it. It is such a dumb comment, how it got greenlighted I have no idea. Mocking a persons accent, lifestyle, upbringing which they have utterly no control over whatsoever? Yeah, that's racist. I do not care if Buffy would mock Willow or someone elses. That is irrelevant. If you see a POC and make very dumb comments and you are an adult, you either, can't think before you talk (or uncapable of thinking all together) or are very racist. It is gross to talk about that.

Yes, she treated the potentials like crap. But seriously- smiling and mocking and making snide remarks at Choa- An's struggles to make sense of situations and language? Really, Buffy? Instead of not being a piece of crap human being, why don't you actually help?

And really, people- stop excusing Buffy's actions with the whole 'weight of the world'. Seriously- if you treat people the way Buffy treated the potentials- yeah, no sympathy is going your way. She isn't the only Buffyverse character to have a tough life. She is never called out on her ignorance, racism, and treatment of other characters. She is never forced to grow as an individual. She is self- centered, and the show and the fanbase tries too hard to make her sympathetic. Rotten human being who calls suicide victims weak (seriously, there is no justification for that, try me), tells domestic violence victims 'don't get hit', responds with violence in every situation, can't empthaise without making it all about her and her pain.

And here is the thing. Anya, yes, she did kill people for 1000 years. Yet she isn't ignorant. She's never called a suicide victim weak. She's never called herself 'the law'. She's never told a domestic violence victim 'don't get hit'. She gets called out on her behaviour. She tries her hardest to be a better person, which is way more than I can say for Buffy. Did she take part in evil? Yes. But I can't say she is ignorant. I can't call her apathetic. Cynical, yes? But she does give a shit, and by the end of S7, she is fighting on the side of good, as is Faith.

Willow and Joyce get called out on their problems. Buffy doesn't. By the time Joyce dies, she is fully engaged with the situations in her problems. She knows about Dawn's image problems with self harm and identity. She knows how Buffy is struggling with her relationships and her slayings. Willow, yes, was arrogant in S6. Yet it never bugged me as much as Buffy's arrogance- she thinks she is 'the law' (which is really stupid that means she has blood on her hands as she let Angelus live for months). She clearly thinks that being the slayer makes her better than anyone, and often uses the Slayer Card to give her opinions more weight. Just coz you won the genetic lottery, doesn't make you better.

My problems with Cordelia are pretty much BTVS. Yes, she gets better, but bullying someone is actually one of the worst things you can do. Mocking and embarrasing Xander in amends about his alcoholic family? Making constant fun of Willow and severly damaging her self image? This isn't about her being 'honest'. She is a straight out bully, and her actions have severly damaged lives- and I am sick to death of how the fanbase romantises her 'honesty' and 'lack of tact'. Bullying is not cool, full stop. I like her on ATS, but on BTVS? No way.

 

[Robb Stark]

It seems like you're holding Buffy to a much, much higher standard than the other characters on the show. I really fail to understand how you can detest Buffy so much for making a few catty comments about hair styles and yet so admire Anya, a character whose central arc progression consists of discovering that maiming and killing for vengeance might be a bad thing. All of the death, horror and misery Anya causes is wiped clean by her participating in the battle against Glory or in the Hellmouth, while Buffy is demonized as a racist and worse in charges which are greatly ballooned (I'm sorry, but Buffy being mad at Jenny Calender had NOTHING to do with the fact that Jenny was a gypsy. There was no correlation there whatsoever. Buffy was angry because Jenny unbelievably failed to mention that perfect happiness would remove Angel's soul. There's no excuse for that, and considering that the guy she loved just went nuts and murdered people in a situation that could have been avoided had Jenny used her head for, literally, a second, it's hardly fair to label Buffy as a "racist" because of that context. Hell, Jenny herself calls her uncle crazy. Is she a racist? I just do not get that perspective. Religion had nothing to do with Buffy's anger. If Jenny was non-secular would that have her racist against people who aren't religious? Okay, sorry, rant over😱)? Maybe I'm just missing something, and please, forgive me if I am, but I don't see the rationale behind the double standard.

Why is Anya seen as this beacon of light and growth while Buffy is seen as the worst person ever in light of everything both characters do and go through? Why are Anya's battlefield achievements heralded as these tremendous examples of courage and bravery while Buffy's don't count in the same context of moral fiber?

 

[The Bronze]

@itssmiletime

I would have loved to see your version of the show if you'd have been on the writing team.

Buffy: "Hi Jenny. My boyfriend just turned evil, did you know anything about this?"

Jenny: "Well yes I did actually. I didn't think it was worth mentioning though."

Buffy: "Oh really? You know he could have eaten me in my sleep and might go on to destroy the planet? Could you not have given me a little notice? Do you have a really great reason for not telling me anything at all?"

Jenny: "Absolutely. I'm a minority."

Buffy: "Wow that's amazing. Of course you couldn't warn me about this. Risking my life and everyone elses is cool. Please let's sit down and discuss your culture at great length and forget all about my lost boyfriend and the monster that's unleashed in Sunnydale, educate me right away."

Seriously? By mocking Sinenya's hair, is incredibly racist and I can not believe people are denying it.

Insensitive? yep. Not nice? yep. Racist? Absolutely not. You can dislike someones hair-do without disliking their entire race. Or are all non white people completely exempt from people having opinions about their appearance?

Instead of not being a piece of crap human being, why don't you actually help?

Seriously- if you treat people the way Buffy treated the potentials- yeah, no sympathy is going your way.

I think free accomodation, food and protection was helpful. In fact I would say she treats the potentials better than anyone else on the entire planet. Didn't see anyone else taking them in and taking nightly beatings on their behalf.

Your sense of perspective when it comes to Anya and Buffy is absolutely mind blowing. Buffy says a few mean things and saves the world and you'd have her executed for being a racist and interferring. Anya takes well over a thousand years to achieve the basic level of human decency of not killing people for entertainment and your applauding her wonderful growth.

Just coz you won the genetic lottery, doesn't make you better.

Being better makes her better. If your answer to a bit of heartbreak is a massacre with your target set on an entire gender then most people are better than you, particularly one who fights to save the people you're killing.

As a side note it's a good job Olaf was from the same race as Anya otherwise I'd bet she'd be killing off that race as well. Makes as much sense as killing all men because you're upset with one of them.

 

[itssmiletime]

[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]:

Yet Anya owns up to her crimes, does acceptance and is on the path of redemption. The show never portrays her as some 'icon' or 'symbol'- like they do for Buffy. And I'll say it again. Buffy is ignorant. She says awful things regarding domestic violence and suicide. I can't respect anyone at all who calls suicide victims weak or says to domestic violence victims 'don't get hit'. I think ignorance is a far worse crime than murder. Anya isn't ignorant. Buffy is. She maintains a lot of negative and warped views regarding society.

And a 'few catty comments'? Really? Because calling a suicide victim weak, mocking someone's accent (which is very offensive), assuming that an African American male must be from 'the hood' yeah that is soooo catty....

The Jenny Calendar arc is incredibly racist- as is Buffy's reaction. And really- Jenny only found out about Angel's curse hours before everyone else. Buffy gives zero understanding, zero empathy or sympathy whatsoever- yet she gives it to other completely white people who are economically sound such as Angel, Willow, Giles, Spike, etc. Jenny's sentences are constantly cut off. She has the right to explain herself and her actions and she is denied that. Her crimes are not rape or torture. She did not curse Angel. The logic that somehow Jenny is all responsible is really, false.

Buffy bores me. She kills Angel and I feel nothing. Maybe it's coz Sarah Michelle Gellar is a terrible actress and can't do a convincing speech or crying scene at all. Maybe because the show tries way too hard to make her sympathetic by her 'flaws'. Maybe its because the character has zero subtetly whatsoever. Maybe its because shes never given an interesting, seasons long arc. Maybe its cause all her relationships are dull or boring. Maybe its because she is a character that is a series of cliches.

Anya never bores me. She entertains me. She is honest. She is funny. She calls other characters out on their sh*t. Emma Caulfield is a great actress. She can make me cry.

 

[The Bronze]

@itssmiletime

I think ignorance is a far worse crime than murder.

I've got to ask. Is this your real life view or just for the show? Take Kendra for example. Buffy mocks her accent, Dru slits her throat. You'd haul Buffy off to jail and give Dru a warning?

 

[itssmiletime]

[MENTION=12470]The Bronze[/MENTION]:

The situation regarding Jenny is that it is so clear why she wouldn't have told the Scoobies that. At risk of being interrogated, she had every reason to think that she'd face ostracism. Would it have been helpful if she told them? Yes, of course. But she isn't some "evil gypsy bitch" (actual comment that I've read). By the time she found out true happiness = soul lost in Innocence, it was too late. The only information (judging from the scene in Surprise) she was working on was a predication of a dark power. That is it.

And providing accomodation to the potentials is not enough. She let someone who had a freakin' trigger in his head walk around for weeks. She called a suicide victim weak. Her very dumb plan in Dirty girls lead to the deaths of two girls that could have easily been avoided. She violated the genetic codes of thousands of woman in Chosen.

And racism isn't just flat out hateful statements. It also includes misconceptions of appropriate behaviour, stereotypical behaviour. If it's 'insensitive' its probably racist too.

And how is Buffy 'better'? Who came up with the idea to use a rocket launcher, seek Buffy out in the caves, use workforce tools against Glory, gave a self esteem boost to two friends, the combined Scooby force in Primeval? Xander. Who didn't actually make dumb statements in the Gift such as 'I'll kill anyone who goes near Dawn' and actually, you know, suggested weapons? Who was actually useful against Dark willow, not Buffy's pathetic begging? Anya.

Take away the powers from buffy, and there isn't much there. Nothing special. Anya, on the other hand, actually tries hard from The Prom onwards to be the best possible person. She doesn't do anything coz she 'has to' she does it because she wants to. The Anya at the end of S7 has hardly any misandry. If Anya never underwent her arc in S5-7, that she'd remain purely evil, I'd still probs like her, but in a way like I like Lilah Morgan. The thrust to make herself the best of her as possible (that's also present in Faith) makes me like her.

---------- Post added at 07:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:05 PM ----------

@itssmiletime



I've got to ask. Is this your real life view or just for the show? Take Kendra for example. Buffy mocks her accent, Dru slits her throat. You'd haul Buffy off to jail and give Dru a warning?

For the show, pretty much, but if I had it my way, both of them would be in jail. Both are incredibly evil. I've already explained how Anya is more than a 'murderer' in my books. She battles against the evil within her. Buffy does not.

 

[Robb Stark]

You still haven't outlined how the Buffy and Jenny Calender conflict is racist. If the circumstances remained the same, if Jenny's knowledge of the matter wasn't altered one bit, but Jenny was Christian, or black, or Jewish (that's another thing. Buffy's best friend is Jewish, and that never seems to have any impact whatsoever on Buffy. If she is so religiously intolerant, why isn't that ever raised), would that have altered Buffy's reaction? Not at all. Buffy snaps because of Angel, not because of Jenny's religion. I think you're adding two and two and getting five here. Buffy never shows the slightest indication that her anger towards Jenny is based on religion. Like, at all. That's like saying any argument Buffy ever had with Willow was because Willow was Jewish, and that's clearly not true. Please show me one line or action that supports the theory that Buffy was angry towards Jenny based on race or religion. Just one.

And while you're right to an extent, Anya does grow in S5-7, it's a little rich to say that she's fighting the evil within her. She takes over 1000 years to discover the "will" to fight that evil, and it not-so-coincidentally seems to happen as soon as she starts sleeping with Xander. I mean, why does it take her so long? Anya freely commits genocide for centuries, literal genocide, while Buffy insults a suicide victim (admittedly, not a nice thing to do), one time. If you can honestly say that Buffy's action is worse, worse than genocide (and willingly going back to that after getting dumped) well, I don't know what to tell you. That's just a major, major difference of opinion.

It's perfectly fine to dislike Buffy or not find her interesting, but the hatred you appear to have for the character seems to have strayed from perfectly reasonable claims (like Buffy's plan in "Dirty Girls") to things which are just stretching the boundaries of credibility. From what you've written, Buffy is being held to a completely different standard than anyone else, and I'm not really sure why.

---------- Post added at 02:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:41 AM ----------

Here's a question. You cited earlier that Willow is one of your favorite characters. Why is Willow given a pass for the way she acts in "Grave", and yet Buffy is not for her anger after Angel loses his soul? The magnitude of Willow's actions dwarf Buffy's. She was trying to murder six billion people. Why is that worse than Buffy raging at Jenny?

 

[itssmiletime]

Okay first onto Willow... I don't hold her accountable for trying to end the world, because first off, Giles power that was within her, she had no idea whatsoever. She was literally feeling all of the pain of 6 billion people. Can anyone with that much pain ingested into their system act rationally? By the way, liking a character doesn't mean I give them a pass for absolutely everything. I don't give a pass for the fact Willow flayed a man. Or the fact that Anya murdered men for 1000+ years. Yet I like them, their characteristics, etc. I don't like Buffy, and I've already listed it above. Her narrative never involves self improvement, being called out on her behaviour. It's just a long, dull celebration of how great Buffy is, and that bores me because a) her flaws aren't 'cute' or 'relatable' b) she's not interesting.

My problem stems out with Jenny / Buffy is how it compares to other 'secrets'- She forgives pretty much Giles the episode later in Helpless. Gile's 'evil backstory' which lead to the personal and violation of many people's bodies and the death of people is pretty much dumbed down into MOTW. Who cursed Angel? The Romani people which Jenny is related to. And because of a very, very, very vague dream, she is automatically made responsible for things she had utterly zero control over.

Willow is a Jewish person, yes, but she is more assimilated into the Sunnydale culture than say, Jenny is. Also? Romani is different to Jewish people. That's not a sound comparison, at all. I know people who I consider to be quite racist who are say, very stereotypical when it comes to Australian Aboriginals, yet are completely non-racist when it comes to those of Asian descent. It's possible, and it does exist.

Anyanka is evil, but Anya Jenkins is not. They are actually kinda seperate (yet not in an Angel / Angelus) way. In The Wish, she takes on the persona of a 17 year old female student. So when Giles breaks her necklace, she literally, becomes a 17 year old woman, with the maturity and natural intellect of a 17 year old. A lot of Anyanka is present within her, and I'm not at all, trying to give her a free pass, but what I am trying to say that Anya Jenkins isn't at all evil. She did alot of good when she didn't have to, or just to 'sleep with Xander'. She isn't Cordelia. She helped out the Scoobies in S7, even though she wasn't together with Xander.

And the fact that Buffy called a suicide victim weak isn't just 'not a nice thing'. It's a f*cking awful thing to do. It is a slap in the face to anyone who has experienced suicidal thoughts, attempts at suicide, killed themselves, anyone who works in health, etc. It is ignorant. I have a rule. I can't respect anyone, fictional or not, who thinks suicide victims are stupid, cowardly or idiots. You can't be friend, you can't even get an ounce of respect. I'm not gonna be kind, at all. Buffy is ignorant, and I don't like that, at all.

 

[Robb Stark]

I can understand your perspective on Anya and Willow. I may not agree with them, but I do get where you're coming from.

I still fail to see the racist angle with Buffy however. I used Willow as an example because Buffy frequently and consistently gets along with people of other races. There's nothing whatsoever to indicate that her anger with Jenny was correlated at all to Jenny's religious practices. And let's be real, Jenny was hardly a newcomer to a strange land. She had clearly lived in the United States for the bulk of her life, if not all of it. She was a teacher before coming to Sunnydale and was hardly a naive foreigner struggling to make it in America. She had no accent whatsoever, was much more in place in the U.S. than Giles was never even revealed to be a member of a minority until late in the second season. Buffy never says a thing about Jenny being a gypsy, and neither does anyone else. Not one thing. Xander assumed Empada couldn't speak English in a far more insensitive moment. Is he a racist? Is Giles a racist for making frequent criticisms on America and Americans? Buffy, Faith and Willow make a number of derogatory comments about men. Are they bigoted?

And no, insulting suicide victims is never a positive thing (I'm not trying to minimize it), but it is hardly on the same scale as genocide. You may very well believe that people should be imprisoned for ignorance of suicide or other things, and that's fine, but you should know that the vast majority of the Western would would disagree with you. I may hate what people say at times (hell, quite a bit of the time), but I do not believe that they should be sent to prison for it when I happen to disagree. I'll bet you there are people out there with personal ties to suicide who really, truly do view those who commit suicide as weak. And I'll bet you that it comes from a place within themselves, and that's how they deal (I know this doesn't apply to Buffy). I'm certainly not saying I agree with them, but they are perfectly allowed to voice their opinions. Personally, I find the fact that people view "their" god as as the ultimate moral justifier in the universe to be deeply offensive, and at times it makes me so frustrated that I want to shake them. I have a disdain for organized religion that I'm willing to bet would piss off a great many people. But that does not mean I don't respect people who do manage to find something in religion. I don't understand that aspect of them at all, but I know that they believe in what they're saying or doing, and I know they don't mean it from a place of malice or hate, and I know, in much of the world at least, that that different view on life and our place in it doesn't mean I can't live with them.

 

[The Bronze]

Gotta say I'm fairly speechless here. I'm just relieved that most societies see genocide as a bigger crime than making a few bad remarks. Can you imagine the problems with overcrowded prisons if everyone who has insulted a hair cut were locked away for a few years? Although I guess this would even itself out if you allowed a handful of genocidal maniacs to go about their business un opposed.

As far as Anya is concerned I don't see why her growth should be celebrated more than Buffys.

Over lets say roughly a decade Buffy matures from a Cordelia-lite style cheerleader to a hero who dedicates her life to saving the world.

Over 1000 years Anya goes from a human with no qualms about becoming a demon and murdering the inncoent. To a demon who kills the innocent. Back to a human who wishes she had the power to kill again. To a demon who kills the innocent. Before finally realising that killing people for your own entertainment is wrong and becoming a regular human.

I suspect given another 990 years Buffy might achieve a little more than that realisation that most of us are born with. Hey she might even find the time to research every culture in the world and ensure she never slips up with any thing that she says ever again.

 

[itssmiletime]

Um... where is everyone getting the strange impression that i think ignorance is worse than genocide? I don't think they can be compared. Both are incredibly evil, yet different. Just because I prefer Anya over Buffy, doesn't mean that I think one is less evil.

I had no idea so many people are bothered by the idea of me disliking Buffy Summers. Seriously, there are people on tumblr, who are 'I can't be friends with you if you dislike Buffy Summers' 'how can anyone hate her' 'why do you even like the show'.
[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]: Well, the thing is that it isn't about Buffy's anger per say that ticks me off. When I talk about racism, I'm not talking about Nazism type of racism which is utterly direct, more so the racism that is shown through stereotypes, cultural presumptions. She presumes that Robin Wood must be from 'the hood'. She presumes that Sineya's life would improve if Buffy would give her some advice- nevermind the possibility that hey, perhaps Sineya is perfectly content with her lifestyle. With Jenny, she offers her zero understanding whatsoever of her upbringing, which is akin to her lack of understanding for Kendra and Sineya. Even if she remains an American Citizen for most of her life, she is still a Woman Of Colour. Although alot of Buffy's- and the Scoobies- cold shoulder could be attibuted to their desire to place blame on someone- and the whole arc is so so so racist what with the whole 'jenny calendar appears' 'omnious music plays' cringe worthy scene in surprise-
it often feels as if Jenny is being punished for the curses' existence. Is her ostracism because of the curses existence or because of the minor secret she had that she had little to no control over? Buffy- and the narrative- is perfectly fine with her excusing the man who poisioned her and violated her body, the man whose 'dark past' lead to the possession of many- yet she gives Jenny the cold shoulder over something quite minor?

I really have said everything I can about Jenny Calendar. But the fact that people do not see anything at all racist with the treatment of Choa- An, Sineya, Robin Wood, Kendra- is baffling. Like I said, Buffy isn't a member of the KKK, but to mock someone's accent is so racist and cruel. People have no control over how they talk. And even if they did- it's still a mean spirited thing to do.

I do not think making ignorant comments about suicide is worse than genocide. I just don't think they can be compared. By the way, I do understand why some people, who have been personally affected by suicide may have a contempt or hatred to this particular group of people- as do victims of racially motivated crime, etc. Yet as long as they don't voice or publish their opinions, or openly discriminate, really, I don't mind. Fact is, that the attitude that suicide victims are weak has made the situation far, far , far worse. As does opinions that they go to hell, are selfish or self centered, etc.
[MENTION=12470]The Bronze[/MENTION]: Really, it's simple. Think before you act. And btw, really, if you do that, you won't say dumb things such as 'hood'. You won't sound like a bully.

I've already explained my reasons for liking Anya. She's funny and spirited. She's refreshing. Can't say the same for Buffy. Anya makes me think about her- how she parallels to the working class, her frustrations with the lack of equality and representations in the universe, her dealings with loss and reality. I love Anya. I'll say it again: Buffy bores me, as does her narrative. I'm not going to simplify her arc like you did for Anya's, but it fails to maintain my attention and pales in comparison to far more superior arcs.

 

[kittenpoker]

Favorites:
-Buffy!!!!!
-angel (on his show)
- spike
-willow
- Xander
- Cordy
- giles
- Jenny
- Gwen
- wes (on angel)
- gunn
- fred
- illyria
- harmony
- dawn
- Connor
- faith (on angel)
- Lorne
- Kennedy

Indifferent to
- faith (on buffy)
- wood
- Wes (on Buffy)
- Kendra
- Joyce

Hate:
- Parker!!!!
- geo
- ethan
- Angelus (on Buffy)



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