Fat Grandchildren

[Kana]

I don't think I'm quite in the right frame of mind at moment to even post this thread but: What do you think Buffy meant by this quote:

And, no, I don't see fat grandchildren in the offing with Spike

Now of course it's a given that biological children are off limits when it comes to vampires (apart from that one time)
So what do you think that quote means?

I mean given that it's literally unlikely that she was going to have that kind of future with Spike, was she making a point that she doesn't see a realistic lasting relationship with Spike or any of her past lovers for that matter. If it's a given she's not being literal then she's talking about some sort of representation. So what does she mean?

Now admittedly I was talking to my Bangel biased friend and after a few glasses, ok bottles of wine she did come up with this convincing argument.

Now she said that Buffy said this off Angel's implication that a lasting relationship with Spike wouldn't go well.

Now we explored three main options:

She was lying to Angel:

Now this seems a little odd. Why admit he's in your heart? It almost seems to be that Buffy is being honest about how she feels. If everything she says is a lie then well Spike isn't even in her heart.

Now we could pick and choose the bits we like and the disregard the parts that we don't like. We could say she's lying to Angel and telling the truth to Spike but isn't that picking and choosing the parts we want to hear and disregarding the parts we don't. Surely the realism of Spuffy wouldn't allow that.

She changed her mind from then to the time she said she loved Spike:

It's a possibility but it could still fits into the frame of "I loved him but not romantically because let's face it, I don't see a positive future with him.

The third option, is that something that defies this logic and I welcome it. Personally I want Buffy and Angel to move on, so it's not in my interest to see them shipped. However I can't ignore quotes and this is a quote I've failed to see Spuffies address, and suprising I've rarely seen it with Bangelists. We have to address though because simply glossing over it with some fancy rhetoric about about trust and friendship and how that's the basis for a real relationship ain't going to cut it with a very canonical assertion about how she feels.

I'll probably look back at this and cringe in my sobriety but what do people think about this quote? Can we really ignore it? What is your interpretation?

 

[Kean]

Personally, I've always seen it as Buffy saying she a) she isn't quite sure what/who Spike is to her and b) what she is sure of is that their relationship will not culminate with a white picket fence. Basically, I think it is Buffy saying that she doesn't see Spike as her long haul guy, however, that doesn't mean she didn't feel something for him at that practicular time.

 

[Kean]

Kana agrees: Indeed which doesn't place Spike above Angel or Riley, unless she changed her mind at the end of ep

I don't really see it as Buffy changing her mind. She didn't view Spike as someone she had a future with, however, I don't think he telling him she loves him at the end of the episode means that she was lying. "I love you" doesn't equate to forever. In another thread you mentioned about Buffy being in love with Spike's bravery and heroism in Chosen (much like I think Angel was a little bit in love with Darla's bravery both as a human facing death (The Trial) and when she sacrificed herself for Connor), I think you are on to something there, and I also think she can love that about him, love him in that moment, without contradicting her words to Angel earlier in the episdoe.

 

[BuffyElevated]

I always took it to mean that she knew it wasn't a possibility because a) vampires aren't supposed to be able to have babies and b) she wasn't sure that a long-term thing would last with Spike.

 

[white avenger]

I think that everybody is putting the emphasis on the wrong word here. Buffy wasn't saying that she "didn't see fat GRANDCHILDREN" in her future with Spike, she was saying that she "didn't see FAT grandchildren" in her future with Spike, and really, why should she? Both Buffy and Spike are slender, so their grandchildren would also be slender. Also plentiful and happy.

I swear, you Bangels will just grab at any little crumb! We absolutely have to get Adopt-A-Bangel up and going. You people need help.

 

[Eleftheria]

Buffy was saying the truth when she talking with Angel.
Spike was significant to Buffy, and I find it very logical cause Spike has been the only one who supported her in the last episodes.The one who gave her that sweet speech about her being the one.

It is certain there are feelings there and Buffy is grateful to him, as he is grateful to her. She forgave him because Buffy IMO is the only person in the verse who can tell the difference between the soul and the demon so well. It started with Angel, and now she was helping Spike to find himself.

But Buffy doesn't love Spike that way. He is not the love she is searching for. The love that can complete her. There is a love which lasts so long and it is always alive and owns that heart for so many years. Angel.She proves that by what she tells him. She says that she needs time, she needs to grow up and that's logical cause she was facing now sth extremely dangerous, even if she won she couldn't know what she would like to do with her future.Settling down is not her Big Plan!

But if she had to choose someone one day, that would be Angel. She "doesn't see grandchildren" with Spike cause simply he is not the guy she would choose for the rest of her life. Angel has always been first in her heart. She tried that with Riley too. And you know why she failed? because there wasn't a deep connection. And although Riley didn't know much about her and Angel, he could tell that Buffy was opening herself up much more with Angel than him.

I will mention sth irrelevant here, but even the physical sign of Angel(the bite) was never gone from Buffy's skin.That is symbolical IMO. Buffy tried to find sth new in other guys. There was always sth missing. With Angel I never saw sth missing. If he had a soul and there was no curse, he wouldn't have left. The circumstances made that relationship doomed, but they never treated each other badly. They knew they were right for each other even though they were seemingly so different.

 

[white avenger]

I will mention sth irrelevant here, but even the physical sign of Angel(the bite) was never gone from Buffy's skin.That is symbolical IMO.

I have to agree with you here. He certainly scarred her for life. Luckily, Spike has been able to help her overcome all of that fear and pain. With his help, support, and love, she has finally been able to put all of that behind her and move on.

 

[Eleftheria]

You wanna tell me Spike didn't "scar" her for life??? I wouldn't say that after having watched s6. And my point was that Angel's love remained on her for ever...it was just sth I noticed

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Personally? I don't think Buffy was referring to anyone in particular with that statement. It was a figure of speech. Kind of like saying, "I don't see us walking down the aisle anytime soon", or something along those lines.

Although, I do think she WAS referring to Spike in that she didn't see him as the long-haul guy - but not necessarily because she didn't want that with Spike, but rather because of her "stellar history with guys" as she so eloquently put it. Dating vamps never seems to work out well for Buffy.

Could she imagine being with anyone that long, much less having kids to begin with? I doubt it. I think that was the last thing in her mind. I don't think she was trying to underplay her and Spike's relationship, I just think she was being honest with Angel. She really couldn't imagine a future with Spike because she had no idea if she was even going to make it past that final battle. I know the Bangels like to interpret that line as her giving Angel "hope" for their future, but I don't see it like that at all.

---------- Post added at 08:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:15 PM ----------

You wanna tell me Spike didn't "scar" her for life??? I wouldn't say that after having watched s6.

lol, WA was referring to her physical and emotional scarring.

Angel damaged Buffy in SO many ways. You just can't see it because you are Bangel-biased 😉 One one level, the pain and suffering the two had to go through with their ill-fated relationship caused B much emotional damage. It's my opinion that Buffy was afraid to love again after what happened with her and Angel. She had to drive a stake through his heart, for God's sake! And watch him try to kill all of her friends.Angel physically scarred her when she forced him to bite her in "Becoming."

Spike scarred her for life in S6? Hardly, lol. Buffy was a willing participant. Contrary to popular belief, casual sex - if it's between two consenting adults - does not normally scar one for life. 😉

 

[TheVoid68]

Yeah, and attempted rape doesn't bother people whatsoever. :/

 

[Kean]

Spike scarred her for life in S6? Hardly, lol. Buffy was a willing participant. Contrary to popular belief, casual sex - if it's between two consenting adults - does not normally scar one for life

Buffy: It's killing me.

If you think Buffy walked away from Spike and what they did during season 6 without emotional (and physical) scars, then while we may be Bangel-ised, you are equally Spuffy-ised.

 

[Eleftheria]

Oh no Joan...I am not referring to the sex scenes. I know Buffy consented if not sometimes forced Spike(like in Smashed she first started it...which is really painful for me to see). And of course Spike liked it cause he had feelings and having Buffy, even if it was her body(and not her heart) didn't bother him much.

I was referring to the emotional part. Buffy hated herself and she hated Spike. She was dark, and she started taking advantage of someone to feel sth, lying to her friends. That took her into even darker places. And Spike instead of helping her, kept pulling her back to darkness. I blame the demon Spike here, not the soul. Spike belonged to the darkness at that moment, and thought that Buffy was part of the darkness too. But he was wrong.

And unfortunately no matter if people believe it, I just express my opinion...it wasn't "casual sex"...it wasn't a carefree Buffy just asking Spike to have new experiences...unfortunately it was darker than that and I can feel that everytime I see a scene from s6

 

[Kana]

A lot my thoughts were summarised in the 'Trust' thread, but I don't think she'd place Angel or Spike above one another. She stated that her own relationship with Angel wasn't anything to write home about and yes, she's not ready for a relationship, but as I say see my post in the other thread for more detail.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

If you think Buffy walked away from Spike and what they did during season 6 without emotional (and physical) scars, then while we may be Bangel-ised, you are equally Spuffy-ised.

I just believe that Buffy is stronger than that. She was able to get past what happened with Spike. To say she was "scarred for life" discounts her strength, in my opinion. Physical and emotional. I guess I just have an issue with the expression "scarred for life." Sure, she was betrayed and emotionally damaged - but only temporarily.

Alright, I'm "Spuffy-ised", I'll admit to some extent. BUT I'm not some biased fangirl who justifies everything Spike does.

I refuse to believe that what Spike did to her had lasting damage on her. Many awful things have happened to Buffy - and she's managed to get past them and move on, relatively unscathed. I don't see how the AR is any different.

 

[Kean]

I just believe that Buffy is stronger than that. She was able to get past what happened with Spike. To say she was "scarred for life" discounts her strength, in my opinion. Physical and emotional. I guess I just have an issue with the expression "scarred for life." Sure, she was betrayed and emotionally damaged - but only temporarily.

There is no such thing as "temporary betrayal", it's like the half a hole analogy. Betrayal is betrayal, it can't be diluted. However, you deal with it, move past it. You probably won't ever forget but the feeling doesn't remain a festering, raw wound if the pain can be worked through.

I don't see how Buffy being emotionally broken discounts her strenght at all, in fact I see it as quite the opposite. Scars are widely regarded as a sign of strenght rather than a sign of weakness. They are testament to a victory in battle (physical or emotional). Scars are the mark of a warrior.

Alright, I'm "Spuffy-ised", I'll admit to some extent. BUT I refuse to admit that what Spike did to her has lasting damage on her. Maybe awful things have happened to Buffy - and she's managed to get past them and move on, relatively unscathed. I don't see how the AR is any different.

I think the fact that Buffy visibly flinched away from Spike's touch upon his return in Season 7 is testament that the AR did have a lasting affect on her. The fact that she didn't engage in any type of sexual activity for years afterwards (we don't know how the time difference between season 7 and 8) and that when she did it was with a female, who perhaps she viewed as a non-threat, physically. It been shown a couple of times before she slept with Satsu that Buffy could take her out without so much as breaking a sweat.

Buffy got up and carried on with her life because that is just what she does. Just because outwardly she appeared to be fine does not show that she was unscathed by theexperience. I think it is is a gross understatement to say the events of SR had no effect on her, because to me that lessons the severity and reality of that bathroom scene, which is several kinds of wrong as far as I am concerned.

 

[Flannen]

I just believe that Buffy is stronger than that. She was able to get past what happened with Spike. To say she was "scarred for life" discounts her strength, in my opinion. Physical and emotional. I guess I just have an issue with the expression "scarred for life." Sure, she was betrayed and emotionally damaged - but only temporarily.

Alright, I'm "Spuffy-ised", I'll admit to some extent. BUT I'm not some biased fangirl who justifies everything Spike does.

I refuse to believe that what Spike did to her had lasting damage on her. Many awful things have happened to Buffy - and she's managed to get past them and move on, relatively unscathed. I don't see how the AR is any different.

Same as she was with Angel then? She was absolutely strong enough to get past what happened with Angel/us in the same way that she was with Spike. But if you're saying that what happened with Angel meant she couldn't love again then I'd shudder to think what the AR did to her.

As for the connotations of that quote? I don't see how she can't be referring to someone in particular when she specifically says Spike. But then she's said similar things in the past in Angel - 'Bad Eggs' I think it was.

For me I think it sorts of says even though she can't that in the future with Spike, she's not sure if that bothers her. By that I mean, it's almost an admission that she's not even sure that's what she wants. Many things stand in the way of her having that future and I think it's a realisation of that.

 

[TheVoid68]

Joan the Vampire Slayer agrees: Well...sans that, obviously. I don't think it scarred her for life, though. That's a bit melodramatic, if you ask me. After all, she was able to get past it.

Just because she managed to cope with it, doesn't mean it didn't scar her. Attepted rape isn't just a hitch that you can just brush off. Also, see Kean's post.

 

[white avenger]

I think the fact that Buffy visibly flinched away from Spike's touch upon his return in Season 7 is testament that the AR did have a lasting affect on her.

I think it is is a gross understatement to say the events of SR had no effect on her, because to me that lessons the severity and reality of that bathroom scene, which is several kinds of wrong as far as I am concerned.

Buffy flinched away from who she believed to be a soulless vampire, the monster who had attacked her the year before. From the moment that she realized what he had done since she had last seen him, there was no more flinching. She defended Spike, believed in him, encouraged him, took his side even against her best friends, and praised him for what he had done. She was, in fact, the only one of the whole group who could do for Spike exactly what had been done for Angel: separate the soulless monster from the man who had regained his soul.

Buffy told Robin Wood that he was trying to exact vengeance on a man who didn't exist anymore, because that was the truth, and she walked it just like she talked it. The man who killed Nikki Wood and tried to rape her didn't exist anymore.

(...though I'm not really sure what this has to do with fat grandchildren)

 

[Eleftheria]

I didn't even refer to the AR in s6...cause he had already scarred her in other ways too. AR is definitely sth that will scar her for life. She was wounded, she was emotionally vulnerable and in the begining of the scene she is not the Slayer, she is a normal girl under attack. Given the fact that both actors played that scene vrey realistically, I think that Buffy was scarred emotionally since she couldn't bear Spike's touch until "touched". Even in that episode she didn't wanna be the "one" and avoided the touch. It was only in the end that she realised Spike had genuine feelings that she allowed touching again.

 

[white avenger]

I think that Buffy was scarred emotionally since she couldn't bear Spike's touch until "touched". Even in that episode she didn't wanna be the "one" and avoided the touch. It was only in the end that she realised Spike had genuine feelings that she allowed touching again.[/QUOTE

I seem to remember Buffy touching Spike several times before "Touched" without going into a shivering fit. After he, thanks to Giles' little magical brain probe, had decked Dawn, Buffy was the one who came back into the basement to wipe the blood off of his face. At the end of "Showtime," she not only touched him, she helped support his weight as they walked out of the cave. And let's not forget Rona's little observation in the next episode, when Buffy wasn't only touching Spike, she was sitting on him and holding his hand.

And Buffy knew that Spike had genuine feelings for her back in Season 5. "The robot was gross, What you did for me and for Dawn, that was real. I won't forget it." Maybe she didn't feel anything but gratitude for him at that point, and maybe, as Miss K says, the attempted rape in Season 6 traumatized her severely, possibly permanently. But no more so than what Angelus did to her and her friends, and she managed, in both instances, to separate the monster who attacked her from the man with a soul who was her friend, ally, and someone who she genuinely loved, whether you want to qualify that with an "in" in front of it or not. She gave Spike the exact same "Get OUT Of Jail Free" pass that she gave Angel when both men were in possession of their souls. No more, but certainly no less.

(And I STILL don't have any idea what this has to do with "fat grandchildren,")