Favorite characters' screw ups

[WillowFromBuffy]

The ONLY reason it was done was like so much of the rest of the terrible, terrible writing: to promote Spuffy, and give poor, martyred Buffy a chance to connect with Spike for the culmination of Spuffy. I'm not anywhere upset at the characters, be it Buffy or those who threw her out, as I am the writers. The ONLY way you can appreciate that scene is if you love Spuffy, because that's the ONLY purpose it serves, and the ONLY way you could possibly overlook the sloppy, character-violating writing and Buffy's infuriating double standards that have been going on for awhile now. (Okay, some people form a loyalty "right or wrong" to the person rather than a person's actions, but surely even they, if not desperate for Spuffy, can see just how absurd and character violating that scene was.)

Cry me a river.

 

[thetopher]

Faith: Blaming Finch's death on Buffy by tattling onher to Giles was pretty low, in a mean-girl 17 years old sense. Plus stealing Buffy's body and trying to seduce Riley was the worst.

Angel: I think how he treated Connor in Season 4 was probably his worst mistake; Angel in pretty sensitive when it comes to matters of love and romance so Jasdelia's sleeping with Connor was actually the perfect way to drive a wedge between father and son. I still think Angel should've wised up sooner though and tried harder with Connor, like he did in Season 3.

Wesley: Stealing Connor and not commuicating at all with the rest of the group. What the hell dude.

Buffy: 'Chloe was an idiot' (no, she was a scared child tormented by the worst evil) and all the 'General Buffy' behaviour nonsense in the final season. All of which led to Buffy alienating everyone who actually deeply cared about her in favour of her spineless yes-man. Urgh.

Giles: Leaving Buffy alone in Season 6; the timing of it more than anything, after just finding out where she had been. Also how he acted towards Buffy and Willow during his return in Season 7; he should've supported them both more.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Buffy: 'Chloe was an idiot' (no, she was a scared child tormented by the worst evil) and all the 'General Buffy' behaviour nonsense in the final season. All of which led to Buffy alienating everyone who actually deeply cared about her in favour of her spineless yes-man. Urgh.

It is harsh. It is hypo-critical, seeing that Buffy tried to kill herself in OMWF. Still, I like this scene. Buffy is shouldering a lot of responsibility. I do not think she is callous at all. She is angry and frustrated. Giles wanted her to become the cold-hearted general who kills Ben for the greater good. Buffy could never become that.

 

[thetopher]

It is harsh. It is hypo-critical, seeing that Buffy tried to kill herself in OMWF.

This is a common misconception actually. People are forced to sing and dance until they eventually burn up, they do not WANT to die, they just can't stop themselves from stopping. So no, Buffy didn't exactly try to commit suicide, she just wasn't 'strong' enough to stop herself, which is an important distinction.

But even if I agreed with this it makes Buffy so much worse; Buffy who has struggled with suicidal tenancies, who actually gave in to 'escaping through death' in 'Normal Again' to get away from her crappy existance shows ZERO empathy and lots of cruelty towards a child. For that's what she calls the Potentials later on; children.

I do not think she is callous at all. She is angry and frustrated.

I think it's entirely callous, since that's the point of the episode; 'Get It Done'. As in 'Stop whining and stop having me carry you and pull your goddam weight; do more magic, put on your murder-coat and get violent, just DO IT, I don't care about your feelings there is a war on.

It's Buffy doing the right thing completely the wrong way. She won't discover the right way until 'End Of Days' where she has to accept that sometimes people die and it isn't your fault, or anyone else's fault really, so she has to stop blaming everyone else for somebody dying on her watch.

Giles wanted her to become the cold-hearted general who kills Ben for the greater good. Buffy could never become that.

But wasn't that the point of 'Now you would let Dawn die' conversation between Buffy and Giles in 'Lies My Parents Told Me', so Buffy DID become cold-hearted to a degree.

But unfortunately she also became kinda tactically stupid; like the Zap Brannigan of Sunnydale. 'I will sends wave after wave of Potentials at Caleb until he gets pooped, then I shall strike...Y'all don't like my plan?'

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

This is a common misconception actually. People are forced to sing and dance until they eventually burn up, they do not WANT to die, they just can't stop themselves from stopping. So no, Buffy didn't exactly try to commit suicide, she just wasn't 'strong' enough to stop herself, which is an important distinction.

All her songs in OMWF are super depressive. In Something to Sing About, she is clearly saying, 'Give me a reason to live or I will kill myself.' The scene would lose its impact if it was all down to the spell.

Otherwise, you make a lot of good points that I won't try to argue with. Still, I love season 7 Buffy. I would have put on my leather-murder duster and followed her out of the house without thinking twice about it. I'm not putting my chips on Faith, that is for sure.

 

[Priceless]

It is harsh. It is hypo-critical, seeing that Buffy tried to kill herself in OMWF. Still, I like this scene. Buffy is shouldering a lot of responsibility. I do not think she is callous at all. She is angry and frustrated. Giles wanted her to become the cold-hearted general who kills Ben for the greater good. Buffy could never become that.

You are right, she's angry and frustrated. They know what the First can do and she needs the girls to be stronger and resist it, or she's going to end up burying more little girls. She has to be this cold, or burying children is going to destroy her and she can't allow that, she is General Buffy, she has to be strong for them all.

But even if I agreed with this it makes Buffy so much worse; Buffy who has struggled with suicidal tenancies, who actually gave in to 'escaping through death' in 'Normal Again' to get away from her crappy existance shows ZERO empathy and lots of cruelty towards a child. For that's what she calls the Potentials later on; children.

She calls the potentials children to distinguish herself from them. She was a child, now she is an adult and she has to take adult decisions that will affect them, perhaps negatively. For me, Season 7 shows Buffy is fully grown, the adult she was always destined to be.

When you're a grown up, fighting a war, you don't have tantrums, you don't self harm, you put all your effort into the war, put personal issues to one side until you've won. That's the difference between The Slayer and The Potentials, they're still children. Empathy doesn't win a war. You can't afford to empathise, to feel deeply, when you know you are probably leading these children to their deaths.

Buffy buried Chloe, she took that horrible responsibility, she didn't pass it on to anyone else. She's the grown up, the leader, and doing that must have destroyed her, but she had to switch her emotions off to 'get it done'.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

When you're a grown up, fighting a war, you don't have tantrums, you don't self harm, you put all your effort into the war, put personal issues to one side until you've won.

Weeeeeeeell... 😛

Empathy doesn't win a war. You can't afford to empathise, to feel deeply, when you know you are probably leading these children to their deaths.

I think the show preaches that empathy is important. In Fool for Love, Spike argues that the slayers he killed had become jaded and tired of fighting. Buffy survives by not letting the horrible things she must endure change her. That is why her transformation from the end of series 5 onwards is so scary. Callousness and hard choices may be effective in the short run, but belief is what will carry you through the campaign.

 

[Priceless]

Weeeeeeeell... 😛

I think the show preaches that empathy is important. In Fool for Love, Spike argues that the slayers he killed had become jaded and tired of fighting. Buffy survives by not letting the horrible things she must endure change her. That is why her transformation from the end of series 5 onwards is so scary. Callousness and hard choices may be effective in the short run, but belief is what will carry you through the campaign.

Agreed, empathy is important, and it's something Buffy has, but I feel that in this situation it's useless. She has to be mature enough to realise that she must put away her finer feelings, and that right now they will only make her weak when she has to face her strongest opponent yet, and she has the lives of all those potentials on her shoulders.

When she walks away from Xander in the hospital after he loses an eye, it's so moving, but I understand she can't let herself weep for him, or for any of them, or she may never stop weeping. It's the same with Chloe, she honours Chloe by burying her and fighting on, not by weeping and wailling and feeling the loss.

 

[Stoney]

The most obvious choice is the AR scene with Spike. It just doesn't make sense. The writers had his character come exceedingly close to the moral event horizon (the point when a character become irredeemable for the audience) yet the very next season they expect the audience to feel great sympathy for Spike and almost act as if the AR scene never happened. JM's talent is the only thing that made it work, because if it had been in the hands of a lesser actor, Spike's arc would've crashed and burned in season 7.

Although I did feel that 'Oh no' when Spike tried to rape Buffy it was an important moment for the character's overall arc and in making it clear to the audience that he wasn't a special snowflake, drawing blunt attention to the limit on his capacities when unsouled. As @WillowFromBuffy says, his perceptions of what was acceptable in relationships was flawed whilst soulless so it didn't feel out of character for him to fail like this and I think keeping the overall verse distinction between souled/unsouled intact was important/needed.

Spike thought that he could walk the line and be what Buffy needed and he could promise her that he wouldn't hurt her. Then we have the attempted rape which taught him that he couldn't be reliable like that. We see why in how confused he is in the crypt afterwards, about why he even cares, why he didn't do it. He doesn't have the moral boundaries to be good for Buffy at that point. The struggle between monster and man had to be something that he couldn't manage without the soul. His story falls in line with the verse if he can't just choose to be good as a souled person can. Like with Angel, his soulless actions, all the murders/rapes etc that he had already done, had to be things he didn't really care about, didn't have the capacity for a moral choice over to feasibly give him any true distinction and separation from his evil past. So for me there wasn't anything to make him more irredeemable than all the awful things we've already seen him do, that we've heard about, or that we've seen in the flashbacks, just the same as it has been for Angel. Granted, it was more difficult for the audience to forgive him for something they've witnessed. Especially something acted against a main character, and the lead after all. But it isn't actually 'worse' than things we know he/Angel have both done in their pasts unsouled.

Season seven dealt with the onward story for Spike, the attempted rape didn't get explored perhaps as much as some would have liked, but drawing that stark line between souled/unsouled is supported in the series and Spike was shown to struggle with his soul/guilt and that was raised between him and Buffy several times earlier in the season. But S7 was about that onward movement, about strengthening and supporting, about overcoming your weaknesses and being strong, being a hero. Empowering each other. I agree JM is very talented and that is definitely one of the main reasons Spike is so great.

Jonathan joining the trio. It was disappointing to me, I felt he owed Buffy more than that and should have known better. Actually, let me rephrase. It wasn't joining the trio that bothered me, cause that makes sense for him as a character. What upset me was Jonathan going along with kid napping and attempted rape of Katrina. I don't see how he didn't realize what he was doing was rape and I'm very disappointed that he didn't do more to stop Warren. I feel like that was exceptionally dark for his character and to me it didn't make sense.

Jonathan is one of my favourite characters, I love the coherency of his arc through the series and I was really disappointed too when he didn't step away from the Trio earlier. I agree it was in character for him joining them and there was certainly the earlier indication in Superstar that he was capable of distancing himself from his actions somewhat. Including even that his spell coerced the twins to being with him, because although it was their choice he knew it was under false pretences and the spell manipulated people's opinions/thinking. But what was happening with Katrina was far more stark, it was tough to see him having gone that far and not step away sooner.

Angel is one of my favourite characters, I love the complexity and struggles he has. He often falls to repeated hubris in his stories but none of them frustrated me like the ending to AtS 5. It works if looked at in quite a dark way that is still about Angel's struggle and disconnection from his path. But that sense of 'glory' in the final fight I found pretty awful. I agree with @flow about the disappointment in him killing Drogyn to keep up the pretense of being evil. It was just compounded for me ten fold in him then leading people to make a futile grand gesture rather than continuing the more difficult fight on the ground level that he had started with. The fact that he lied to the group that he was going to be taking out Sebassis when he knew that he had already set him up to be poisoned by feeding from his slave and he was actually going to try and take out Marcus really frustrated me on the back of him having altered everyone's memories and lied about his reasons for joining W&H in the first place. It just didn't feel that he had learned anything in the season and I really couldn't see it as a positive ending. I don't think that it is as problematic within his overall path, it wasn't out of character, but it felt a very negative moment for the character on its own to me.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

I was REALLY annoyed with Fred during the whole Professor Seidel situation. Yes, she has a right to be mad. And I can understand why she wants him dead. But when Gunn prevents her from committing murder (by killing the Professor himself) she changes towards him. Which REALLY pissed me off. He did it out of love for her, and the little cow backs away after that. Stupid.

Wesley stealing Connor. Just moronic. For an intelligent guy, he really screwed up here. (And good on Angel for the attempted smothering!)

 

[thetopher]

All her songs in OMWF are super depressive. In Something to Sing About, she is clearly saying, 'Give me a reason to live or I will kill myself.' The scene would lose its impact if it was all down to the spell.

I didn't say that it was 'all down to the spell', only that Buffy didn't try and off herself The singing and dancing was about something that was DONE to them, its not something Bufyf chose, so its misleading to say 'oh, she tried to commit suicide' since the spell was affecting her and she wasn't strong enough to resist.
Buffy came closer to commiting suicide in 'Normal Again', there at least she made a clear cut choice to disappear into her illusion and almost destroy herself.

I'm not putting my chips on Faith, that is for sure.

I would. At least she would listen to what I had to say and- as a team- people would succeed or fail together.

She calls the potentials children to distinguish herself from them.

It's still patronizing and wrong; you don't treat children like soldiers or vice versa. Like Faith says, you trust in and believe in soldiers who you're fighting a war beside. Buffy tries to have it both ways.

When you're a grown up, fighting a war, you don't have tantrums

Buffy has tantrums when it suits her.

put personal issues to one side until you've won.

Buffy also puts personal issues above sound strategy.

Empathy doesn't win a war.

No, empathy wins the day, as Buffy has often done in the past. Her viewing this as a war was a mistake, seeing herself as a general was a mistake, the whole point of Buffy's arc is that she finds another way that doesn't involve barking orders and pissing people off with her questionable choices.

 

[sosa lola]

Xander is my favorite and there are three episodes where I can't side with him:

Dead Man's Party: He was way out of line during the discussion, especially considering that he lied to Buffy in Becoming.
Revelations: He was very cruel to Buffy, egging Faith to kill Angel and later framing Angel for hurting Giles. This must be his worst episode ever.
Entropy: The way he reacted to the Spike/Anya sex was inexcusable. Trying to kill someone who couldn't fight back was the lowest of lows as well as slutshaming Anya.

 

[Priceless]

It's still patronizing and wrong; you don't treat children like soldiers or vice versa. Like Faith says, you trust in and believe in soldiers who you're fighting a war beside. Buffy tries to have it both ways.

Maybe it's a little patronizing, but she's trying to rile them up, to get them to fight and not be scared. She's saying to them 'prove to me you aren't children'. It's not a subtle or a clever tactic, but I don't think she knows what else to do to motivate them. Remember how she struggled with teen-Dawn, Buffy is not a natural at motivating or mothering teenage girls.

Buffy has tantrums when it suits her.

I don't remember a lot of tantrums in S7, she gives a lot of speeches and tries to motivate the troops but I don't remember tantrums.

Buffy also puts personal issues above sound strategy.

You could be right here, but doesn't this prove the lie that she's cold and unsympathtic? You can't lack empathy, be cold and machine-like and still have personal issues to put before everything else, persoanl issues mean you care. Admittedly strategy is not her greatest talent.

No, empathy wins the day, as Buffy has often done in the past. Her viewing this as a war was a mistake, seeing herself as a general was a mistake, the whole point of Buffy's arc is that she finds another way that doesn't involve barking orders and pissing people off with her questionable choices.

I don't see this. After being totally intergrated and accepting her dark side in S6, I see that this as a continuation of that story. This what The Slayer can be, the highest pinnacle. The leader of armies. It'a about who's got the Power 🙂

Buffy does empathise when necessary, she feels for all her friends and the potentials, but she just doesn't show it, because she doesn't want to undermine the war effort. To me it is a war, as yes The First is lame, but in-show it's meant to be her greatest enemy and I just go with that, so maybe that's why I see things differently.

 

[sosa lola]

I love it when Buffy has to stand on her own and find her strength.

Not at the expense of every single character on the show. I prefer teamwork more. I love The Gift where every single character, even Tara, had a role to play to save the world. That's more interesting to me than Buffy working solo.
 

The ONLY reason it was done was like so much of the rest of the terrible, terrible writing: to promote Spuffy, and give poor, martyred Buffy a chance to connect with Spike for the culmination of Spuffy. I'm not anywhere upset at the characters, be it Buffy or those who threw her out, as I am the writers. The ONLY way you can appreciate that scene is if you love Spuffy, because that's the ONLY purpose it serves, and the ONLY way you could possibly overlook the sloppy, character-violating writing and Buffy's infuriating double standards that have been going on for awhile now.

100% true!

The mutiny was one of the many character bashing fanfiction I've read on the internet. Not needed at all.

 

[Carrie Hopewell]

For Wes:

- I also have to mention Wesley kidnapping Connor. What a dumb move man.
- His involvement with Fred, when he kissed her and she was still with Gunn. Bad Wes.
- Wes stabbing Gunn. Come on, Wes. He didn't deserve that.
- Wes not trusting Angel and breaking that cube with the fake memories. Really screwed things up for himself and everyone else. I'm glad for all the Connor/Angel moments though.

Angel:

- Sleeping with Darla... That entire scene is so disturbing. The way Angel man handles her and throws her around. I know she's evil but still... Angel sank low.
- Deciding to date Cordelia without thinking of the consequences. What happened to your brain?
- Again, everything about Cordelia and Connor in season 4.

 

[Cordeliagirl]

My favorite Character is Cordelia. I am mad that Williow cheating with Xander on Cordelia and become buffys best friend, not Cordelia.

 

[flow]

Wes stabbing Gunn. Come on, Wes. He didn't deserve that.

Of course he deserved it. He thought himself he deserved it. Considering that Wes shot his own father six times only because he threatened to kill Fred, Gunn actually got off quite well with just being stabbed for concealing information that might actaually have saved Fred.

Wes not trusting Angel and breaking that cube with the fake memories

I am wondering, if Wes was the only one who got back his real memory or if everyone remembered Connor after that. And if so, did they know Angel had faked their memory ? It was never adressed, or did I just miss it ?

flow

 

[Bop]

Of course he deserved it. He thought himself he deserved it. Considering that Wes shot his own father six times only because he threatened to kill Fred, Gunn actually got off quite well with just being stabbed for concealing information that might actaually have saved Fred.

Still it's not Wesley's decision whether Gunn deserves to be stabbed for concealing information. Wesley's love for Fred doesn't entitle him to be a vigilante and go after anyone who remotely hurts her. IMO Gunn didn't deserve to be stabbed, and of course he'd agree that he deserved to be stabbed because he's full of guilt for his actions.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Of course he deserved it. He thought himself he deserved it. Considering that Wes shot his own father six times only because he threatened to kill Fred, Gunn actually got off quite well with just being stabbed for concealing information that might actaually have saved Fred.

Did he really? I did not know knife in chest was an appropriate form of punishment. What does Wes deserve for his mistakes? I quite like bad Wes, but he can be a little full of himself, stabbing friends and shooting subordinates in the kneecaps.

Gunn is a good guy. He had much better chemistry with Fred than Wes, and he accepted the Prometheus punishment for his mistake.

After surviving having his throat slit, Wes seems to believe everybody can survive almost anything. "I am just going to give you this near mortal wound as a punishment, Gunn. I am sure you'll survive. It is for your own good."

 

[GraceK]

@Carrie Hopewell i think Gunn did deserve it to be honest. He cared more about staying a genius than who might get hurt as a result. I felt like Gunns transformation that season was extremely disappointing, he gave up his soul almost immediately at Woflram and Hart, and to me it seemed OoC. Fred's death was a direct result of a action he took, and then he concealed it when he found out. I understand completely Wes stabbing him, just as I understand Angel trying to suffocate Wes.
 

What does Wes deserve for his mistakes? I quite like bad Wes, but he can be a little full of himself, stabbing friends and shooting subordinates in the kneecaps.

Wes paid many a price for his mistakes. He certainly didn't get off scot free from anything he did. The love of his life literally suffered and died in his arms , and Gunn is partially to blame. I don't see why so many people condemn Wesley for what he did. Many other characters have done worse for less of a reason.
 

Still it's not Wesley's decision whether Gunn deserves to be stabbed for concealing information. Wesley's love for Fred doesn't entitle him to be a vigilante and go after anyone who remotely hurts her. IMO Gunn didn't deserve to be stabbed, and of course he'd agree that he deserved to be stabbed because he's full of guilt for his actions.

The same can be said that Willows love for Tara doesn't entitle her to kill Warren, or Angels love for Connor doesn't entitle him to attempt to kill Wes, or Bufffys love for Angel doesn't entitle her to kill Faith. Everyone on these shows are guilty.