Feminism vs Anti-Feminism

[Kana]

I'm sure many of you saw Emma Watson's speech at the UN about gender equality. This was in response to what appears to be a recent wave of anti-feminism that has swept across our media.

Now I wanted to know people's opinion on these two seemingly opposing view points. For example for every tumblr feminist, you may happen across a "womanagainstfeminism".

So what's the truth? Do feminists exaggerate figures or rely on emotive rhetoric fuel their personal agenda or is sexism a real issue that needs addressing.

Some of the things I 'd like to look at are: are there essential differences between men and women? Is there a place for transgender in feminism? What are mens' role in feminism?

I'm pretty new to the concept of feminism. I mean, it has always been something of which I've been vaguely aware and certainly in the last year or so gender differences (and similarities) have always interested me.

I suppose, if someone were to ask me, "Are you a feminist?" I'd most likely respond, "Well, I believe in gender inquality". Now many feminists may well respond that I'm essentially calling myself a feminist, but the reason I've resisted the label this long, is well, I dislike labels! I fully aware that if one were to look at feminism in the dictionary, there are few, certainly in the western world who wouldn't identify as feminists, but as per my conversation with BEG, I agree at least with some anti-feminists, that being feminists does (and indeed should) go beyond the dictionary definition. Defining it in what I would describe as "real life" terms, is actually not as easy as I would have thought. I see it actually as a broad movement with many ideologies and agendas associated with it and while I agree with general fairness of treatment amongst all genders (yes, all genders) I don't think any movement that has such strong political and personal influences, should be without it's critics.

For me, the ideal is that groups such as the MRA's and feminists can reconcile with the joint venture of attempting to bring about a fairer world for everyone, but it seems they cannot agree on the methods one would employe to bring about such a world, nor can the agree on the status quo of how fair or unfair the world treats the respective genders.

So, to put you in the picture, I'm still on the fence. I suppose I lack the relevant facts and stats come up with a strong position. So what are your views? Is there still a need for feminism and if so, what should this movement look like?

 

[EVIL UU]

Why does it have to be feminism vs anti-feminism? Can't it just be mostly-don't-care-about-feminism? See, this is the problem with modern feminism - it's too much like religion. Us vs them mentality, dogmatism, mythology, anti-intellectualism and neo-puritanism on the top of it. Like religion, it's more about beliefs than actually doing stuff.

I'll give you an example. Rape vs pornography. I don't want to say that feminists are against rape because everybody is against rape but feminists are rather vocal about this issue - teach men not to rape, yes means yes and so on. Most feminists, with the exception of the sex-positive minority, are also against pornography. Meanwhile the availability of pornography is directly correlated with the prevalence of rape - increased availability and higher consumption of pornography leads to a lower rape rate. Well researched issue at this point, lots of data. Basically, you want to combat sexual violence? Support pornography because hey, it works. Yeah, well, tell that to feminists.

You know what I can't personally deal with when it comes to feminism? The notion that, at the same time, women are better than men ( female moral superiority ) and weaker ( victim complex ) than men. That women need to be protected and treated differently. You heard about this whole shirt nonsense, right? Matt Taylor, Rosetta and whatnot. Biggest outburst of sexism against women in recent memory and of course, coming from feminists. The idea that a mere shirt ( made by a woman by the way ) with sexy women can stop women from pursuing carriers in STEM. Seriously?

Some of the things I 'd like to look at are: are there essential differences between men and women?

Yeah, sure but we shouldn't give a **** where it matters. Especially when it comes to law - the bias towards women in family courts and in criminal justice system is just not acceptable to me. I understand why it happens, at the end of the day justice system is about fear but it's still not OK.

MRA's and feminists

I want both of those groups to shut the **** up. They're not fixing any issues, just perpetuate this stupid gender war. MRAs and feminists, just look at them, usually they're both fat and dress like it's the 50s, can't they just hook up already and go away? I'm kidding here but you get my point, right? I mean, boys vs girls, what is this, kindergarten? We need something new.

Is there a place for transgender in feminism?

Trans-exclusionary radical feminists made sure that there's not.

What are mens' role in feminism?

If you're a man and not a feminist you're an asshole. If you're a man and a feminist you're still an asshole. It ties to Marxism-derived concept of privilege and so on. Basically, if you're a guy, steer clear, the only winning move is not to play. Pick another movement - human rights, egalitarianism or whatever.

Is there still a need for feminism

I think that women's rights activism is still needed, especially outside of the western civilization, but feminism...I don't know, the way I see it modern mainstream 3rd wave feminists aren't particularly interested in these issues. They just whine about bullshit.

 

[thetopher]

I don't have any problem with the concept of feminism or feminists- believe in equality of the sexes? Great, 'cause there really shouldn't be any inequality like that in modern western society- no excuses.
And I think there's still tons to do in the developing world when it comes to womens rights. In Africa, the Middle East, Asia- there are HUGE issues for feminists still to tackle.

But a lot of feminist 'writers' prefer to waffle on about rubbish things in this society that literaly mean jack s***. I mean, I've read plenty of articles from these seemingly intelligent, well-educated people who just seeing every little thing through this distorted prism that makes them 'angry' and 'incensed' about non-issues. Like whether the latest Disney movie or Taylor Swift is empowering to women? Is there a 'war on women' in US politics because some blogger criticised Michelle Obama or Hilary Clinton?

Seriously? In a world where female circumcision is still something that actually exists, this is what they choose to write about?
What about trying to highlight the reforms for sexual assault laws for the benefit of female victims?
What about highlighting calls for Sharia law to be established as an alternative to British family law for Muslim families? (Yes, this has actually been suggested)
What about the injustices that happen to fathers in family court every single day?

There are plenty of real issues affecting women, but usually it's just anybody else that draws attention to these things. Which, I guess illustrates that their not really needed in the first place.
I've never seen a feminist writer draw attention to anything that was relevant to the real world, they'd rather just pick soft targets. If they can depict men as a**holes in the process that's just a bonus.

 

[Kana]

First of all, thank you for the reply. As I said, I'm still rather new to all this, even though the subject matter has been floating around in my head for a while.

Why does it have to be feminism vs anti-feminism? Can't it just be mostly-don't-care-about-feminism? See, this is the problem with modern feminism - it's too much like religion. Us vs them mentality, dogmatism, mythology, anti-intellectualism and neo-puritanism on the top of it. Like religion, it's more about beliefs than actually doing stuff.

From what I've seen many anti-feminists aren't actually against gender equality, they are simply those who may disagree with some of what they would describe as feminist rhetoric. They end up being labelled "sexist" because they dare to disagree with a particular feminist's ideology.

However, I've seen unfair labels being placed at both sides. Anti or non feminists are supporting patriarchy and modern feminists are whiny militants, who find everything sexist. However, I agree that you may have people who deny the labels who may even agree with certain viewpoints from both sides.

I'll give you an example. Rape vs pornography. I don't want to say that feminists are against rape because everybody is against rape but feminists are rather vocal about this issue - teach men not to rape, yes means yes and so on. Most feminists, with the exception of the sex-positive minority, are also against pornography. Meanwhile the availability of pornography is directly correlated with the prevalence of rape - increased availability and higher consumption of pornography leads to a lower rape rate. Well researched issue at this point, lots of data. Basically, you want to combat sexual violence? Support pornography because hey, it works. Yeah, well, tell that to feminists

I'm not all that clear on the stats although, I sometimes become wary of any stats without context. That is to say the age of exposure, the type of pornography and other societal issues that play into it. For example, I've heard some feminists argue that the so called "cathartic" consumption of pornography masks a culture where men see women as objects, which is something they perhaps may consider pervasive in pornography. However, you could argue that the harm pornography does is more speculative than evident, but then again, other variables may factor into it I guess.

You know what I can't personally deal with when it comes to feminism? The notion that, at the same time, women are better than men ( female moral superiority ) and weaker ( victim complex ) than men.

To be fair, I don't think everyone who identifies as a feminist would necessarily subscribe to this.

That women need to be protected and treated differently. You heard about this whole shirt nonsense, right? Matt Taylor, Rosetta and whatnot. Biggest outburst of sexism against women in recent memory and of course, coming from feminists. The idea that a mere shirt ( made by a woman by the way ) with sexy women can stop women from pursuing carriers in STEM. Seriously?

Yes, I did see that. I actually thought that if the achievement of making someone cry is worthwhile goal of feminism that, then some need to rethink their ideology. I agree that such behaviour can, as it's been said "belittle" feminism.

Yeah, sure but we shouldn't give a **** where it matters. Especially when it comes to law - the bias towards women in family courts and in criminal justice system is just not acceptable to me. I understand why it happens, at the end of the day justice system is about fear but it's still not OK.

I think if we are to care about gender equality, these things do matter. It seems that there is dissent about what issues we are suppose to care about.

I want both of those groups to shut the **** up. They're not fixing any issues, just perpetuate this stupid gender war. MRAs and feminists, just look at them, usually they're both fat and dress like it's the 50s, can't they just hook up already and go away? I'm kidding here but you get my point, right? I mean, boys vs girls, what is this, kindergarten? We need something new.

I think it is this problem of "which is the camp with which you will align?" I do think that someone can be a feminist without holding the belief that they should prioritize the need of women over other genders, but then again some think the very idea of being a feminist implies just that. However your idea of both sides "hooking up" may not be such a bad idea (😉). If both sides are about gender equality, is it possible to find a common goal rather attempting to undermine the other.

Trans-exclusionary radical feminists made sure that there's not

The story about a male to female transsexual who was ousted from an abused women's shelter was heartbreaking to say the least.

If you're a man and not a feminist you're an asshole. If you're a man and a feminist you're still an asshole. It ties to Marxism-derived concept of privilege and so on. Basically, if you're a guy, steer clear, the only winning move is not to play. Pick another movement - human rights, egalitarianism or whatever.

I think it depends on the (female) feminist. Many do encourage men to be feminists and applaud those who identify as such, but yes, others can simply blame you for having a penis. I suppose we can all fall into the trap of generalizing, but I've seen feminists take different stances on that.

I think that women's rights activism is still needed, especially outside of the western civilization, but feminism...I don't know, the way I see it modern mainstream 3rd wave feminists aren't particularly interested in these issues. They just whine about bullshit.

I suppose there is even dissent amongst modern feminism about what they or indeed we should care about. I'm still pretty much on the fence, but thank for you contribution and I'm eager to see other posters' view on this...

 

[Doppelgang]

Some strong views on this subject being put forward. The way I see it, between 10-20 years ago there was a wave of over the top political correctness that allowed many people to exploit this, as anyone who went against the trend was straight away labelled as sexist, racist, etc. Feminism in the West certainly got caught up in this, and there has since been a reactionary backlash that has built up against it. Nevertheless I think there remain many serious areas, even in Western countries, where feminist issues could be properly raised. And I think there will continue to be. As gender roles are being renegotiated and fought over all the time, and at an increasing pace now that there is more awareness, and less fear of speaking out.

Pornography as a means of reducing rape... you could probably find stats to show that women being paid for sex reduces rape. Still doesn't make either of these things right. And I don't think many would want any of these things to increase in an ideal world, either rape, pornography, or prostitution. But its a case of making a stand on certain issues.

What should be the main issues right now? I would say it could be to do with things such as women being treated as objects in the media, in many jobs, and women being stereotyped and defined by others, rather than being allowed to define themselves. It is inevitable there is going to be more change in gender roles, as the population of the world is reaching its limit, and there is just no place or need anymore for a woman to be stuck at home raising a load of kids. Does feminism want to be on the front line of these renegotiations in gender roles in a realistic way, or it does it want to hold on to outdated battles, or fight over purely idealistic and polarising issues? If the latter, the reaction to feminism will get stronger and stronger, including by women, if the former, maybe feminism still has an important place in political and social reform in Western and developed countries.

 

[Taake]

But a lot of feminist 'writers' prefer to waffle on about rubbish things in this society that literaly mean jack s***. I mean, I've read plenty of articles from these seemingly intelligent, well-educated people who just seeing every little thing through this distorted prism that makes them 'angry' and 'incensed' about non-issues. Like whether the latest Disney movie or Taylor Swift is empowering to women? Is there a 'war on women' in US politics because some blogger criticised Michelle Obama or Hilary Clinton?

Seriously? In a world where female circumcision is still something that actually exists, this is what they choose to write about?
What about trying to highlight the reforms for sexual assault laws for the benefit of female victims?
What about highlighting calls for Sharia law to be established as an alternative to British family law for Muslim families? (Yes, this has actually been suggested)
What about the injustices that happen to fathers in family court every single day?

I've never seen a feminist writer draw attention to anything that was relevant to the real world, they'd rather just pick soft targets. If they can depict men as a**holes in the process that's just a bonus.

Disagree, the reason why these more shallow topics reaches peoples radars is because they fit into the mainstream packaged and are turned out by various media outlets whereas the more hardhitting pieces are in magazines or online sources that still struggle to survive because people don't want to read that stuff. Or because people bad mouth feminist (omitting your offensive quotation marks) writers so the things that aren't easy to sell just won't be sold because who wants to read another depiction of men as a**holes right? There are plenty of reports on female circumcision, at least where I'm at, same goes for fathers in court. However, these topics are more vague and once read people don't want to read them over and over - because you get numb to it - so that distorted prism you're talking about has more to do with the audience and the marketing than it does with the writers. I'm not saying all feminist writers have depth or write accordingly but to bundle them all up and say that no one does is a bit rich. You might have to look for it, but it's there, so if you've never seen it then I'd say it's because you haven't been bothered to look.

Also the soft tragets that are Disney or Taylor Swift are not less important. They have an effect on people's daily lives. Obviously no sane woman would support female circumcision, and we do care about it, but for those of us whom it doesn't happen to it becomes rather far removed and it doesn't have a greater impact on our daily lives. What does have affect is the Disney movie my niece watches - how will it affect her? What message is it sending? What is culture telling girls/women about how to be? Etc etc for Taylor Swift. No, it might not changes lives but it is undeniably in our lives, it's the background noise to it, so don't pressume to suggest that just because it's shallow or 'soft' it's not important.

But to quote a famous feminist writer
"It also means they can accept you, because we don't see what we can't accept, we blot it out, we jam it hastily in one stereotypic box or another. We don't want to look at something that might shake up the mental order we've so carefully erected." 

Most feminists, with the exception of the sex-positive minority, are also against pornography.

You know what I can't personally deal with when it comes to feminism? The notion that, at the same time, women are better than men ( female moral superiority ) and weaker ( victim complex ) than men. That women need to be protected and treated differently.

Trans-exclusionary radical feminists made sure that there's not.

Whenever I read your posts on feminism I feel like I've been tossed into a time machine and have traveled back in time. Everything is just dated or unreal.

I think that women's rights activism is still needed, especially outside of the western civilization, but feminism...I don't know, the way I see it modern mainstream 3rd wave feminists aren't particularly interested in these issues. They just whine about bullshit.

So what exactly do you think feminism is if not women's right activism? Or how do you picture women's right activism to be rather?

You heard about this whole shirt nonsense, right? Matt Taylor, Rosetta and whatnot. Biggest outburst of sexism against women in recent memory and of course, coming from feminists. The idea that a mere shirt ( made by a woman by the way ) with sexy women can stop women from pursuing carriers in STEM. Seriously?

Actually I have not, if you care to inform me then I wouldn't mind listening.

I mean, boys vs girls, what is this, kindergarten? We need something new.

Then why don't you try to think of something instead of flinging as much mud as the groups you're accusing of this childish behaviour.

If you're a man and not a feminist you're an asshole. If you're a man and a feminist you're still an asshole. It ties to Marxism-derived concept of privilege and so on. Basically, if you're a guy, steer clear, the only winning move is not to play. Pick another movement - human rights, egalitarianism or whatever.

Disagree, I know plenty of men who openly claim to be feminists and I've never seen or heard anything but admiration for them.

 

[thetopher]

Disagree, the reason why these more shallow topics reaches peoples radars is because they fit into the mainstream packaged and are turned out by various media outlets whereas the more hardhitting pieces are in magazines or online sources that still struggle to survive because people don't want to read that stuff. Or because people bad mouth feminist (omitting your offensive quotation marks) writers so the things that aren't easy to sell just won't be sold because who wants to read another depiction of men as a**holes right? There are plenty of reports on female circumcision, at least where I'm at, same goes for fathers in court. However, these topics are more vague and once read people don't want to read them over and over - because you get numb to it - so that distorted prism you're talking about has more to do with the audience and the marketing than it does with the writers. I'm not saying all feminist writers have depth or write accordingly but to bundle them all up and say that no one does is a bit rich. You might have to look for it, but it's there, so if you've never seen it then I'd say it's because you haven't been bothered to look.

The feminist writers I have read have almost exclusively been published online not in any glossy magazines, and I have never seen anything of substance discussed. They just like getting outraged and angry at 'social injustices' which are actually their own POV that nobody else really cares about.
That's the thing about blogs- you don't have to target mass audiences, just the slice of people that are going to agree with you no matter what you say, so why bother with a coherant, thought-provoking argument.

Also the soft tragets that are Disney or Taylor Swift are not less important.

Completely disagree. I mean, we're talking about degrees here. Man's inhumanity to women vs. shallow, societal commentary. One of them matters, the other just wastes trees.

The fact that more people read the former shouldn't matter to a writer who considers themselves as principaled. But that's the thing- a lot of feminist writers simply co-opt that term just so they can writer about the things they want to draw attention to, and endlessly play to helpless victim card. Their not actually feminists concerned with changing things that really matter. If I want to read articles of substance by any intelligent writer, male or female, they don't tend to define themselves as feminists, just journalists/freelance.

And yes, the tone of a lot of these articles really do indicate that men, in general, can do nothing right. Women are either victimized by them, protected and patronised by them, or ignored by them. They are needlessly bile-ridden pieces of writing. And just like I won't read a lot of misogynist crap I won't read that stuff either.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Do feminists exaggerate figures or rely on emotive rhetoric fuel their personal agenda or is sexism a real issue that needs addressing.

I will not say much on this topic, for as a man, I feel I cannot. I have my viewpoints but to say I 'understand' the topic would be a fallacy. I cannot speak on the female condition and the oppression they endure any more than I could that of a black man. I will comment on the 'is sexism a real issue that needs addressing' with simply: Gamergate. That was, in my opinion, all and only about sexism. So, judging from recent events and not allegorical evidence, yes, it is a real issue.

 

[Taake]

Sorry I realized I didn't answer your questions.

For me, the ideal is that groups such as the MRA's and feminists can reconcile with the joint venture of attempting to bring about a fairer world for everyone, but it seems they cannot agree on the methods one would employe to bring about such a world, nor can the agree on the status quo of how fair or unfair the world treats the respective genders.

That would be the ideal, sadly there's very little agreement. Feminism is often a bit chaotic of a field because there are so many viewpoints and no clear 'company line' except for gender equality. Though that means something different to everyone... I've waded through a lot of lesser feminist literature to find pov's that I actually like or agree with. I think that's the case for most, there is just so much output of information these days that it's hard to sift through it and get a clear idea of the bottom line.

Personally I think the hashtag "womenagainstfeminism" is something for those who either haven't thought about it or are just privliged enough not to have to think about it. My hope would be for them to grow some insight and maybe learn to redefine whatever troubles them about the way they currently view feminism.

For me, yes there is still a need for feminism, and there might always be. Especially considering the bad rep feminism has always toted around. It probably always will too because it's a movement reliant on discussions. However - this doesn't mean feminism ought to be dismissed as a myopic man-hating movement. I read about that shirt matter now and yes, I too thought that was ridiculous, just like I can find plenty of feminist writers to be of poor quality, but that doesn't mean that all of feminism or feminists are. I think you have to define the term for yourself and then work for the matters that's closest to your heart - whether that's female circumcision, media portrayal of women, or equal pay.

At the end all I can say is that while I define myself as a feminist that certainly doesn't mean that I agree with all feminists or the battles they chose to take.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

At the end all I can say is that while I define myself as a feminist that certainly doesn't mean that I agree with all feminists or the battles they chose to take.

That reminds me of a quote from Bad Feminist:

“When feminism falls short of our expectations, we decide the problem is with feminism rather than with the flawed people who act in the name of the movement.”

 

[thetopher]

I think I should clarify- feminism, like any movement has those in its ranks that don't do the the term feminist any favors, which is a real shame. Those are the only people I have a problem with.

Most people can (and should) distinguish between important, vital issues facing equality and women in general and the occasional fake-outrage that engulfs some topic or other.
Learn who esposes what views, who's judgement is sound and arguments are grounded and well-thought out- which is something anybody can do. By ignoring the fringe elements everybody (men included) can make feminism what it always should be- important and relevant.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I suppose I lack the relevant facts and stats come up with a strong position.

Here are some relevant facts on gender pay gap:

• Women in every state experience the pay gap, but some states are worse than others.
  The best place in the United States for pay equity is Washington, D.C., where women were paid 91 percent of what men were paid in 2013. At the other end of the spectrum is Louisiana, the worst state in the country for pay equity, where women were paid just 66 percent of what men were paid.

• Women face a pay gap in nearly every occupation.
  From elementary and middle school teachers to computer programmers, women are paid less than men in female-dominated, gender-balanced, and male-dominated occupations.

• The pay gap grows with age.
  Women typically earn about 90 percent of what men are paid until they hit 35. After that median earnings for women are typically 75–80 percent of what men are paid.

• While more education is an effective tool for increasing earnings, it is not an effective tool against the gender pay gap.
  At every level of academic achievement, women’s median earnings are less than men’s earnings, and in some cases, the gender pay gap is larger at higher levels of education.

• The pay gap also exists among women without children.
  AAUW’s Graduating to a Pay Gap found that among full-time workers one year after college graduation — nearly all of whom were childless — women were paid just 82 percent of what their male counterparts were paid.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

 

[Blaze]

@Ethan Reigns, whoever made that poster is completely missing the point. As a woman, society has made us believe that we need justification from man to feel attractive, this was cause because of misogyny. Hence why feminism is needed in pic A, so that we don't feel like we need that justification, ever. Pic B depicts a goal where the society no longer puts those pressures on women, and therefore there is no harassment, and no need to justify our beauty. No harassment=no unrealistic expectations put on women from society=happy women. Pic A and pic B do not contradict each other. Hopefully I explained that well.

I didn't want to partake in this debate because I have very strong opinions and sometimes those are not appreciated. Anyhow, I'll keep things simple. As long as there is a gender bias, feminism has it's place. I consider myself a feminist because I want gender equality. Just to answer a few of the questions...

sexism a real issue that needs addressing.

Anyone that doesn't think gender bias still exist today lives in a hole. As to how those problems should be addressed is debatable, but they should definitely be addressed.

are there essential differences between men and women?

I think there is. The same way you wouldn't hire a blind man to fly a plane. But more often than not, people don't distinguish what is a real difference and what isn't. Like a employer might try to defend their sexism by saying that they hired the man because the job involved lifting big loads. But some women would be perfectly capable of doing that job, for example if they are athletic. A better answer from the employer would be: I did not give job to person A because they did not pass the physical portion of the examination. No need to mention gender. Imagine if the roles were reversed and men were not hired as surgeons because their hands are too big. Men might have bigger hands as a trend, like women might be weaker, but this does not mean a specific person is not suitable for a job. Those are gender bias, not real differences.

Is there a place for transgender in feminism?

I think there is. There is a place for ALL gender in feminism, sexism also does not only apply to one gender.

What are mens' role in feminism?

The same as women's. If all did their part, sexism would not exist.