Feminism

[Abby27]

So I took a class last semester, Psychology of Women, and am currently Full Frontal Feminism by Jessica Valenti and both have really had an impact on me. Honestly, I always really hated when women took 1 women's study class and now were a staunch feminist but after taking that class and seeing just how women are still treated as secondary to men, it really upsets me. I mean, I am totally not a man-basher, I love guys, my boyfriend is a self-proclaimed feminist! Just wondering how many other people here are too? And if we all even have a clear definition of feminism.

 

[Ms.Trick]

Feminism!Feminism!Feminism!

(Count me in!)

 

[Christopher]

I don't support feminism as it has become more then it originally set out to be, and in many cases has women becoming prejudiced (against men) themselves. What I do support however is equal rights. I hate seeing women being treated as less then men, particularly when it comes to their opinions being dismissed as worthless or unimportant. The sooner we are all on an equal footing the better!

 

[Blondie Bear]

I consider myself an equality feminist, or an individualist feminist (ifeminist)--essentially a libertarian who's concerned about women's rights. I'm emphatically not a "gender feminist," or someone who believes that it's women's turn to run the show because men did it for so long and hence want women to be in charge of everything.

 

[Abby27]

@ApricotAngel: Definitely! I think the worst thing for everyone involved is saying one gender is better than the other. Women who call themselves a feminist and then proceed to put men down are just as wrong as men who put women down. People shouldn't put people down.

To me, the definition of feminism is pushing for women's issues to be examined in order to get us to a more egalitarian society - not to put men down.

But I would consider myself a feminist as there is still a long way to go for it to be equal. I mean, even with the way that people think about men and women. A good example of what I mean is how women are treated when they get birth control. Some women can't get their prescriptions filled because some states have a law where the pharmacist can deny giving out a prescription if it is against their morals or religious beliefs so these people are telling unmarried women, "Sorry, I don't think you should be having premarital sex so I'm not gonna fill this for you." Without even going into the religious aspects of this, it would be bad enough, but how many time have you heard of a man being denied condoms because he is unmarried? Probably never. So, it's not so much that these pharmacists think people shouldn't be having premarital sex, but that women shouldn't be having premarital sex. And I know we have to take into accountability that condoms don't require prescription but I think it's obvious that while it's gotten better, there is still this idea out there.

 

[Bexieh]

I agree with the whole 'equal rights for both genders' thing. And I also agree with you guys that feminists that take it too far are just as bad as the problems they're tackling.

The only thought I've really put in to feminism though is when we've been doing Feminist Theory in my Film Theory class. A lot of it is focused on Laura Mulvey's work and the idea of the 'Male Gaze' that objectifies women in cinema and forces the viewer into the view point of a hetrosexual male when watching the text. That's definatley something I agree with when thinking about some films where women are portayed like that. And I think that's something that needs to change too, but then again I don't know if it would be possible to work it from a completley neutral viewpoint without going too far in the opposite direction. I thought it was an interesting thing to study anyway, even if we've only done one lecture on it so far!

 

[WakingNightmare]

It depends on how you define the word feminist. I've researched it a few times and I've found that some people who claim to support "equal rights for all" will freely hate on men and appear going for the exact opposite of what feminism was originally about: equality. They're just the exact same as what they're trying to stop.

I belive all human beings should have the same rights. Be it woman or anyone else that society would consider to be "lesser" than the average white male.

To each his (or her) own I guess. Dick Masterson is insane though. He believes woman are above men? Fine, I don't like or agree with it but we're all entitled to our own opinion. He believes every woman is a cheating whore that would vote for Hitler (his words, not mine) is when I start to fear him.

Definitely a topic that interests me though. Picked up a book on the suffragettes in the school library, was inspired by it. And kinda sqicked. Should've skipped the parts on force feeding...

 

[Ms.Trick]

Feminism is sadly misconceived by so many people! If you go around the streets saying you're a feminist, people just assume "She wants woman domination".

Tough, on this board, I think we all agree to say we are for gender equality, not feminin domination. And that's what feminism is about in the first place, I believe. To get to gender equality, we must solve the problems women still have in the society, equality is still not granted.

No gender should be put on a pedestal. And in a way, I think men can also be affected by the inequality. Society expects too much from men to be, you know, the MAN, the dominator, the brave, the strong, the tough...
It's sad but I've seen it, it happens all the times that men are "lowered" to the woman-state if they are not man enough. You are not enough of a man, then you are such a girl.
I think, for example, about the notion of crying. I hear too many times, and I thought it too sometimes, things like "I was touched to see that guy cry, it is just so rare". Because crying is assimilated to those ladies who get teary for nothing. But it happens that men are actually bashed because they cry, because they are not strong, or tough enough...
I think this entraves men's freedom. I don't mean they can't do what they want, but there is always a risk that some morons call them woman or gay like it was an insult. It doesn't always get to bashing, but mocking is not rare or even remarks.
Same for girls who are a lil bit more manly, it happens that they are treated like freaks because they are not enough "how a girl should be like".

So I think the guys who don't care about that and cry as they please, or don't mind doing "girl things" like, I don't know, say, ballet *thinking about Billy Elliot* contribute to feminism, because embracing your feminin side is a way to say "So what? It's just human in the end, it doesn't make me any better or any worse, it just makes me human". Woman have 'man' sides, man have 'woman' sides, and by that I mean sides that are stereotyped as from this or this gender. It's just complementar and makes us human (Yep, that's the word of the post, HUMAN)

I also think about the male stars, like Rugbymen in France, or some like Robbie Williams, who put themselves in the place of the object of desire, place that is way too often given to women. When I see that, I don't think "MEN ARE OBJECTS and women are not", I just think "It's okay for women to be portrayed as objects sometimes if men do it too, but it's not okay if women are the only one put in the object place". Thanks to the always-more-sexy-nowadays-culture, men are a lot exposed as objects of desire, but I feel like this position is still more a woman position. Like in some music videos, where the women have to play sexy while the men get to play with sexies.

What I really want is just some frigging balance.
We are all human.
There shouldn't be slut bashing, men lowering, women over-the-top putting, women lowering, men over-the-top-putting, no pedestals, objects-women and consumers-men...
No, there should be an equility, for the rights, for the sexuality, for the feelings, for the desires, the way we see each other.

When I say I'm a feminist, it doesn't mean I want to overrule men, it just means I want the humanity of each to be aknowledge, and I think we have to go through feminism to arrive to that.
None is superior. The only thing that distinguishes us is our respective anatomy. There is no stronger gender. There is no superior gender. There is no overpowering gender. There is no more-better gender. There is just us, the one human gender. Or that's the way things should be.

 

[This Year's Girl]

Well, defining feminism can be tricky considering that there's a lot of different approaches to it. There's queerfeminism, socialist feminist, liberal feminism and so on and so on. One common umbrella term that is often used to try to get some coherence and sums it up pretty well though is:

1. Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
2. The movement organized around this belief.

I am, of course, a feminist. I really don't think it's fair when people say that feminism has gone "to far". Like in every other movement there's going to be fundamentalists, just like there is in for example religions. That doesn't mean that you can judge an intire movement based on those people. Feminism really isn't about one sex having more power than the other. And honestly, I am getting sick of always having to say things like "I like men" when I say I'm a feminist. If people took the time to find out the true meaning of the word they wouldn't question it.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

I'd say I'm a feminist because I do believe in the equality between all genders/sexes. The problem for me, as is the same with racism, is that a lot of the academic jargon doesn't fit in my day-to-day life and I find that when I disagree with these things many activists take it as me being ignorant, or assume I'm a man (or white) and therefore privileged. It just isn't the case for me at all.

An example would be something, let's pick something that fits both racial and feminist issues. My hair. From an academic racial perspective (For some academics) I straighten my hair because I'm trying to be "white". From a feminist perspective (for some), I do my hair or try to make it look pretty to basically appease a patriarchal society because it's what's expected of women, to look pretty.

For some people this is the case. They straighten their hair to be "White" or to appease to men/society. I really just straighten my hair because its more advantageous for me to do so. As a child I broke combs, brushes, curling irons, hair barrettes, clips, whatever because my hair was so thick. I do not want to cry every morning just trying to put my hair into a pony tail, which I have done once or twice before. I love my heritage and its nothing to be ashamed of and I refuse to believe that society has some how forced me into this view when its really the more hands on experience that has led me to straightening my hair. As for men, typically I wear a hat even when my hair is done and if a man doesn't like me when my hair is sticking in odd directions from time to time then he's not the man for me. Same thing if a lady experience were to happen.

Then there is a lot of "we don't have to educate you" type of speaking towards people trying to learn more about racism or sexism. The thing though is that it's typically assumed your White or male, making the assumption that a minority or a female would inherently know these academic issues and if we don't we're poorly educated. I understand the feeling of not wanting to answer the same question 5,000 times over to someone who is just going to ignore you in the end, but it does tend to block out a lot of people they claim to try to help. You really can't just tell the person to check out a book or google for information because of the massive amounts of mis-education there is out there sometimes.

This is getting long but I'll just say I'm a feminist and a racial equalist but I would like to not be lambasted every time I do not agree with an academic ruling on what our lives really are like.

 

[Abby27]

No gender should be put on a pedestal. And in a way, I think men can also be affected by the inequality. Society expects too much from men to be, you know, the MAN, the dominator, the brave, the strong, the tough...
It's sad but I've seen it, it happens all the times that men are "lowered" to the woman-state if they are not man enough. You are not enough of a man, then you are such a girl.
I think, for example, about the notion of crying. I hear too many times, and I thought it too sometimes, things like "I was touched to see that guy cry, it is just so rare". Because crying is assimilated to those ladies who get teary for nothing. But it happens that men are actually bashed because they cry, because they are not strong, or tough enough...
I think this entraves men's freedom. I don't mean they can't do what they want, but there is always a risk that some morons call them woman or gay like it was an insult. It doesn't always get to bashing, but mocking is not rare or even remarks.
Same for girls who are a lil bit more manly, it happens that they are treated like freaks because they are not enough "how a girl should be like".

Definitely. In America, we value agentic traits: being goal-oriented, monetarily successful, and cut-throat. We don't value relational traits as highly: being empathetic, focusing on relationships, nurturing. But we assign agentic traits as being ideal for male and relational traits as being ideal for female. So if a man is super competitive: awesome. If a women is good at expressing her emotions and thrives with relational issues: awesome. So, even though as a whole, society values agentic traits more highly than relational traits, as long as people are fitting within their assigned gender roles, all is fine. But it creates this male > female mentality.

Now, what's interesting is when men and women swap these traits. In general because agentic traits are better, if a women expressive more of these traits (like a women CEO) it's OK. She still might be ridiculed (being called a "dike") but overall it's OK. Men who express more relational traits are crucified. Not only are they expressing these less valued traits, they are also breaking gender roles and those 2 together equal cultural suicide. Men are labeled as "wimp" and "fag" and other words I won't write on here. And it's not fair. They have to mask their emotions and put up this "tough guise" (get it?).

All in all, people should be who they are. If a woman wants to be a full time mom and homemaker, awesome. If a man wants to be a boxer, great. But if the roles are reversed, they shouldn't have to feel like they are wrong.

This is an interesting video about gender stereotyping ads for children:

http://www.youtube.com/user/feministfrequency#p/u/0/rZn_lJoN6PI

 

[Willow My Love]

My thought on crazy feminists that think that women are so above men is this: You've never been a man, presumably. You don't know what that's like. How can you say you're better?

I'm all for women being treated equally. That does mean the end of chivalry completely. Men shouldn't have to pay for every date, hold doors, or any of that! I can open a door. I can pay for a date. That being said, I don't get offended when men do those things. Generally, I ask to pay for half of the date. If that doesn't go over well, I tell them next time it's on me.

I'm all for women being empowered, and it does bother me that we're not equal, but at least I can have a job, own land, drive a car, and live on my own. Go back a few hundred years, we couldn't. In some countries, women still can't. I can be thankful I live where I do, and I have the opportunities I do.

 

[fly on the wall]

I am a feminist, of course. I believe in the movement the way it started out: to gain equal rights, and to make the social structures better for BOTH genders. Meaning, the way society works is largely unfair to men, too. While women may have been expected to stay at home and tend to the children, men were expected to earn the money, support their families, and above all else, be "manly." This puts an incredible amount of pressure on men to be breadwinners, overtly masculine, unemotional, and physically/mentally strong. Of course, this makes life very difficult to more effeminate men, or anybody (man or woman) who doesn't fit into these traditional gender roles. And that's what feminism means to me...giving everyone a choice to be the person they want to be, without gross gender stereotypes or expectations. It has nothing to do with wanting women to be in positions of power, wanting men to be subordinate, etc...it's all about choice.

 

[NY State of Mind]

Well i'm all about equal rights!!!! SO YAY 😀

 

[prophecygrrl]

I'm a feminist. I believe in taking down kyriarchy. I believe that all oppression is interconnected- race, gender, sexuality, class, everything. When I say I'm a feminist, it means a lot to me.

I also think understanding the concept of privilege is vital to tackling oppression, and denying it is the worst thing we can do. Most of all, I think being willing to learn is essential to activism. Whether that means learning from your own mistakes, taking criticism when someone points out problematic things you've done/are doing, whatever. It matters.

Well, defining feminism can be tricky considering that there's a lot of different approaches to it. There's queerfeminism, socialist feminist, liberal feminism and so on and so on. One common umbrella term that is often used to try to get some coherence and sums it up pretty well though is:

1. Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
2. The movement organized around this belief.

I am, of course, a feminist. I really don't think it's fair when people say that feminism has gone "to far". Like in every other movement there's going to be fundamentalists, just like there is in for example religions. That doesn't mean that you can judge an intire movement based on those people. Feminism really isn't about one sex having more power than the other. And honestly, I am getting sick of always having to say things like "I like men" when I say I'm a feminist. If people took the time to find out the true meaning of the word they wouldn't question it.

^ I agree with this post times a million! 😀 Hating men and putting down women for their personal choices is NOT what feminism is about. Maybe a long time ago in the first wave or second wave of feminism, and (unfortunately) maybe still in a *few* of the fringe movements, but again, this is not what Feminism is about. It will never be what feminism is about, not anymore and not ever again. And time after time after time, feminists have said this. The majority of us have made it clear that having male allies in this fight is essential to taking down patriarchy/kyriarchy and that what a woman chooses to wear on her face or her body is her own choice. I've certainly said it enough times, and now I'm tired of it. I refuse to identify myself by stating all the things I am not. That's not fair to anybody. So yeah. Feminism represent! 😀

 

[Washburne]

Am I a feminist? Sure am. In theory at least. So many great things have been said already (and I'll read it all at some point...) so I'll just say this.

What bugs me most about equal rights is when people think it means that everyone should be able to do the same things and for equal pay. To me it's not what it's about. You can't put someone in a position based on their sex. Instead it's that everyone should be able to prove that they're the person for a specific task. Not to be discriminated for being of a certain sex. Some men are better than other men in doing certain things, they can also be better than some women. At the same time women can be better at certain things than most men, or maybe even all men. You won't know until you've tested their abilities. To say that someone can or can't do certain things because of their sex, be they women or men is incredibly silly in my mind. In general it might work but never when it comes down to individuals. Maybe men in general suits better to be firemen for example. But there's no way you can convince me that every man would make a better firemen than any woman.

Sadly women too often don't get that chance and that's what bugs me a lot.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I have never considered myself as an active feminist, but I do think people should judge and look to both women and man equally. We're all equally important for this world, and we all have something to give.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Definitely. In America, we value agentic traits: being goal-oriented, monetarily successful, and cut-throat. We don't value relational traits as highly: being empathetic, focusing on relationships, nurturing. But we assign agentic traits as being ideal for male and relational traits as being ideal for female. So if a man is super competitive: awesome. If a women is good at expressing her emotions and thrives with relational issues: awesome. So, even though as a whole, society values agentic traits more highly than relational traits, as long as people are fitting within their assigned gender roles, all is fine. But it creates this male > female mentality.

Now, what's interesting is when men and women swap these traits. In general because agentic traits are better, if a women expressive more of these traits (like a women CEO) it's OK. She still might be ridiculed (being called a "dike") but overall it's OK. Men who express more relational traits are crucified. Not only are they expressing these less valued traits, they are also breaking gender roles and those 2 together equal cultural suicide. Men are labeled as "wimp" and "fag" and other words I won't write on here. And it's not fair. They have to mask their emotions and put up this "tough guise" (get it?).

All in all, people should be who they are. If a woman wants to be a full time mom and homemaker, awesome. If a man wants to be a boxer, great. But if the roles are reversed, they shouldn't have to feel like they are wrong.

This is an interesting video about gender stereotyping ads for children:

http://www.youtube.com/user/feministfrequency#p/u/0/rZn_lJoN6PI

Even the prejudice against men who stray outside of their normative gender roles is predicated on the idea that femininity (and by extension, women) is bad. There's another really excellent video (I've posted it before on another feminist thread on the BB, actually lol) that talks about how patriarchy hurts men and how that ultimately relates to women:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=td1PbsV6B80[/ame]

It is excellent. Adding a trigger warning though for a description of sexual assault.

 

[This Year's Girl]

I just watched that vid a couple of days ago, Pg! Love it! A tip to everyone though: don't read the comment if you're watching it on youtubes site, it's really depressing...

 

[Ianigsy]

This is a difficult one in the Western world - ultimately whatever theory you stand for, men and women have to share the planet and interact with each other at home, work and socially, and to my mind any theory which makes that more difficult is a bad one because it'll eventually end up counterproductive. In terms of rights under the law, I would guess that most of us live in countries where women have the same rights to education, employment and property as men, so perhaps the next battleground is to ensure that that becomes worldwide and you don't have situations like in some Islamic countries where a man's evidence in court outweighs a woman's, or (and this isn't just under Islam) girls aren't allowed an education because they have to be married off or take care of the house.

For most of my life I've worked for female managers and it never once occurred to me that they shouldn't have been in charge of me because their reproductive bits were on the inside.