Feminism

I have been a feminist from a really younge age because of the sexism I have experenced. Even in first and secound grade I was trying to show that boys and girls are equall by wearing the boys uniform because I thought it was horrible that girls were forced to wear skirts and the boys could wear pants. Also when I wanted to play a "mans" sport (ice hockey) in the girls league no checking, or even physical contact was a pentalty when the boy who were WAY younger could do anything they wanted. In fourth grade I tried to cycle a petion around to over turn this rule but noting happened. Men and woman are equall so they should be treated equally, and not be jugded by what sexual organs they have.
 
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This Year's Girl
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Ms.Trick
YES! I agree
You didn't like this thread?

Should I answer what feminism is to me or if it's important to me? Possibly both I guess.

Feminism to me personally is about equality and not in the way of "everyone can do everything as well" as I mentioned in the thread linked.

Is it important for me? I'd love to say a huge yes but not like I do very much about it. Saying yes is easy, trying to do something about it something else. So I guess it's not important enough for me to fight about but it's what I want to happen.

When feminism goes too far and is represented as something else, woman are better than men, I don't agree with it. Even if I love woman way more than men. And not in the attraction kind of way. Even if that's true too. 😉
 
Professor Walsh
Professor Walsh
I'm blind. I didn
And if we all even have a clear definition of feminism.

Well, while it sure isn't the only attempt at a definition out there, I sure like the Tomato Nation post "Yes, You Are", citing the definition:
feminism n (1895) 1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes 2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests "” feminist n or adj "” feministic adj

Am I a feminist? Hell yes. Because I believe in political, economic and social equality of the sexes, something we do not have even if we've come a long way here in Scandinavia.

Oh. This makes me want to pull one of my very first banners out of the drawer:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/Thinkerbell/sigstuff/8mailite.jpg
 
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Abby27
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prophecygrrl
Love that banner!
I've found that feminism is becoming progressively more important to me the older I get. I've never self identified as a feminist and have actually been known to give a rant or two about it because the construct of feminism that I had experienced had not been positive. Lately that has changed, I made a post on my LJ the other day about how we need to retire the words slut, whore, slag, tart.. tramp...etc. I have used those words, and more, personally, but it seems that only now am I hearing them and I just don't want any part of what is essentially a vicious judgement on how a woman acts, what she wears and how many people she shares her body with.

I'm taking a class on Feminist perspectives on war this semester, it's taught by Swati Parashar. I don't know if anyone knows of her or has read some of her stuff? She is a student of Christine Sylvester? Anyway, she is absolutely wonderful...powerful even, to listen to. Especially for someone who hasn't always been completely sold on Feminism.

---------- Post added at 07:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:08 PM ----------

Scobro agrees: what about bitch?

All of them. I just didn't want to type every derogatory word used to describe a woman or her behaviour.
 
Skanky Vamp
Skanky Vamp
what about bitch?
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Ms.Trick
Oooh the class sounds awesome!
Wishing Oceans
Wishing Oceans
Completely agreed.
Professor Walsh
Professor Walsh
So was it solely the class that changed you? or age or both? was there one catalyst over the other? I have never known a recent convert before.
 
Feminism is sadly misconceived by so many people! If you go around the streets saying you're a feminist, people just assume "She wants woman domination".

Tough, on this board, I think we all agree to say we are for gender equality, not feminine domination. And that's what feminism is about in the first place, I believe. To get to gender equality, we must solve the problems women still have in the society, equality is still not granted.

No gender should be put on a pedestal. And in a way, I think men can also be affected by the inequality. Society expects too much from men to be, you know, the MAN, the dominator, the brave, the strong, the tough...
It's sad but I've seen it, it happens all the times that men are "lowered" to the woman-state if they are not man enough. You are not enough of a man, then you are such a girl.
I think, for example, about the notion of crying. I hear too many times, and I thought it too sometimes, things like "I was touched to see that guy cry, it is just so rare". Because crying is assimilated to those ladies who get teary for nothing. But it happens that men are actually bashed because they cry, because they are not strong, or tough enough...
I think this entraves men's freedom. I don't mean they can't do what they want, but there is always a risk that some morons call them woman or gay like it was an insult. It doesn't always get to bashing, but mocking is not rare or even remarks.
Same for girls who are a lil bit more manly, it happens that they are treated like freaks because they are not enough "how a girl should be like".

So I think the guys who don't care about that and cry as they please, or don't mind doing "girl things" like, I don't know, say, ballet *thinking about Billy Elliot* contribute to feminism, because embracing your feminin side is a way to say "So what? It's just human in the end, it doesn't make me any better or any worse, it just makes me human". Woman have 'man' sides, man have 'woman' sides, and by that I mean sides that are stereotyped as from this or this gender. It's just complementar and makes us human (Yep, that's the word of the post, HUMAN)

I also think about the male stars, like Rugbymen in France, or some like Robbie Williams, who put themselves in the place of the object of desire, place that is way too often given to women. When I see that, I don't think "MEN ARE OBJECTS and women are not", I just think "It's okay for women to be portrayed as objects sometimes if men do it too, but it's not okay if women are the only one put in the object place". Thanks to the always-more-sexy-nowadays-culture, men are a lot exposed as objects of desire, but I feel like this position is still more a woman position. Like in some music videos, where the women have to play sexy while the men get to play with sexies.

What I really want is just some frigging balance.
We are all human.
There shouldn't be slut bashing, men lowering, women over-the-top putting, women lowering, men over-the-top-putting, no pedestals, objects-women and consumers-men...
No, there should be an equility, for the rights, for the sexuality, for the feelings, for the desires, the way we see each other.

When I say I'm a feminist, it doesn't mean I want to overrule men, it just means I want the humanity of each to be aknowledge, and I think we have to go through feminism to arrive to that.
None is superior. The only thing that distinguishes us is our respective anatomy. There is no stronger gender. There is no superior gender. There is no overpowering gender. There is no more-better gender. There is just us, the one human gender. Or that's the way things should be.


I think this is one of the best posts I've read in a very, very long time. So very well said, and so true. I completely agree with everything you said, especially about how it can put so much pressure on men to be so masculine and ignore their emotions. I ♥ you!
 
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This Year's Girl
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Ms.Trick
Thanks :D My feminism was on fire that night :D
So was it solely the class that changed you? or age or both? was there one catalyst over the other? I have never known a recent convert before.

The class had nothing to do with it, today was our first day. It has just been a gradual progression, natural even. I certainly didn't seek it out. And this is hardly my first feminist class either, I think I took 2 or 3 separate classes on feminist theory throughout my undergrad.

I think I am just slowly determining what kind of person I want to be and feminist thinking and perspectives have factored, unintentionally, in that a lot.

I suppose there has been other things too, like realising that only 13% of the Irish government is female, or how prevalent sexual assaults and rape have become and how little is being done about it.
 
I've found that feminism is becoming progressively more important to me the older I get. I've never self identified as a feminist and have actually been known to give a rant or two about it because the construct of feminism that I had experienced had not been positive. Lately that has changed, I made a post on my LJ the other day about how we need to retire the words slut, whore, slag, tart.. tramp...etc. I have used those words, and more, personally, but it seems that only now am I hearing them and I just don't want any part of what is essentially a vicious judgement on how a woman acts, what she wears and how many people she shares her body with.

Do you believe in reclaiming slurs or not using them altogether?

I'm totally agreed on not using those words as slurs anymore. But at the same time, I really like the idea of reclamation. And what's more subversive of patriarchy than taking away the negative power of a sexist slur? 😀
 
Do you believe in reclaiming slurs or not using them altogether?

I'm totally agreed on not using those words as slurs anymore. But at the same time, I really like the idea of reclamation. And what's more subversive of patriarchy than taking away the negative power of a sexist slur? 😀

I think reclamation of words is very important for marginalised groups. This issue came up on my LJ too. Take the N word for example, this word was not only a slur but it held very real power, much more so than any other derogatory term for a group I can think of. It was used by white people, very effectively, to keep black people in a state of subordination. Now the power and shame of that word has been turned on the white race to the point where any white person with a shred of decency and humility would not think it, much less say it.

In my opinion this is a key moment for the group. However, I do think that once a word has been reclaimed it should be put to rest by that group. The more it is used the more its newly reclaimed power is diminished and suddenly it appears to be acceptable for the originators of the word to say it again.
 
Oh yeah, to any women reading this thread: go and clean the bathroom like you're expected to. Then make me a damn sandwhich. NOW!
 
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This Year's Girl
That's not funny even if you may mean it as a joke.
brinkster130
brinkster130
I'll give you a knuckle sandwich :p
Seeing Red
Seeing Red
Not funny! At all, that is a very darogatory saying. Shame on you.
Wishing Oceans
Wishing Oceans
Rude and sexist "humor" isn't appreciated.
I know it's a joke but since I don't find it funny at the moment I'll take that as a sign of me having lost my sense of humour for the day. So night, night. Tomorrow we can kiss and make up or out to celebrate the greatness that's feminism.
 
Oh yeah, to any women reading this thread: go and clean the bathroom like you're expected to. Then make me a damn sandwhich. NOW!

...really? On a thread about feminism?

Someone sent me a really enlightening article about sexist humor the other day. It's a few years old, but the results are pretty relevant, wouldn't you say? 😛

http://www.livescience.com/health/071105-sexist-humor.html

Jokes about female drivers and dumb blondes may be told in good fun, but they can promote discrimination against women, researchers say.

Psychologist Thomas Ford of Western Carolina University and several of his graduate students conducted two experiments to test how sexist jokes affected the attitudes of male participants toward women.

In the first experiment, the participants were asked to imagine they were members of a work group in an organization. They then either read sexist jokes, comparable non-humorous sexist statements or neutral (non-sexist) jokes. They were then asked to say how much money they would be willing to donate to help a women's organization.

"We found that men with a high level of sexism were less likely to donate to the women's organization after reading sexist jokes, but not after reading either sexist statements or neutral jokes," Ford said.

In the second experiment, men were shown video clips of sexist or non-sexist comedy skits and were then asked to participate in a project designed to determine how funding cuts should be allocated amongst select student organizations.

"We found that, upon exposure to sexist humor, men higher in sexism discriminated against women by allocating larger funding cuts to a women's organization than they did to other organizations," Ford said.

"We also found that, in the presence of sexist humor, participants believed the other participants would approve of the funding cuts to women's organizations," he said. "We believe this shows that humorous disparagement creates the perception of a shared standard of tolerance of discrimination that may guide behavior when people believe others feel the same way."

The results of the study will appear in the February 2008 issue of the journal Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin.

bolded emphasis is mine. 🙂

---------- Post added at 05:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:09 PM ----------

ApricotAngel agrees: It was a joke Read post 3 and you may realise it wasn't serious

Please don't say something deliberately inflammatory and then imply that I (and others) have no sense of humor. I have no doubt in my mind most people recognize it as a joke. But the point is that it's a sexist joke, made at the expense of an entire group of people. And while you may feel comfortable saying things like this, the attitudes reflected in your 'joke' have very real consequences.

I did read your previous post. I can't help but think that if you were truly concerned about gender inequality, you'd show it. Cheap sexist humor is kind of counterintuitive, dude.
 
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Christopher
It was a joke :) Read post 3 and you may realise it wasn't serious :) :) :(
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This Year's Girl
I agree very very much!
Have you guys heard of the domination techniques (also called master surpression techniques)? There's a famous sociology professor by the name of Berit à…s (who I've had the pleasure of meeting a few times in my work) who recognized them and put them down on paper.

Basically, as you may know, many strategies are used consciously and unconsciously to maintain power and privilege. One strategy is the use of domination techniques. When one becomes aware of the techniques they’ll loose or decrease their power and help the person being subjected to them to:

1. to realise that it is not actually she/he who is boring, stupid and ridiculous – even though it feels like it,
2. to understand that the techniques of domination can and should be combated, and
3. to get discussion going – in the workplace, in the family, at school and so on.

To identify techniques of domination and to give them a name is one of the ways of rendering them harmless. Therefore it is important to learn to expose them, but it is also important that one avoid using them.

Today, there's 7 domination techniques. 5 original ones and 2 added later on. The two added later on are objectification and violence or threats of violence. I think those two are pretty self explanatory, so I'll just recap the 5 original ones:

1. Making invisable -To silence or otherwise marginalize persons a person by ignoring them. For example: not answering when they speak to you, to pretend not to hear them or start talking to another person when they talk.

2. Ridicule - In a manipulative manner portray a person as ridiculous. For example: point out physical features, make jokes at anothers expense or when someone has something important to say make jokes or say that the person looks or sounds cute when they are talking.

3. Withhold information - To exclude a person from the decision making process, or knowingly not forwarding information so as to make the person less able to make an informed choice. For example: not telling a person about a meeting or to decide things behind the persons back and then not inform them of the decision.

4.Double bind (also called damned if you do, damned if you don't) - To punish or otherwise belittle the actions of a person, regardless of how they act. For example: If a man does domestic work he's unmanly, if he doesn't he is being bashed for not helping.

5. - Heap blame/put to shame - To embarrass someone, or to insinuate that they are themselves to blame for their position. For example: "if a woman feels uncomfortable by men hitting on her she shouldn't wear short skirts".


Imo, what you were doing when you made that comment and then passed it of as a joke (insinuating that the people who didn't got it had no sense of humour) ApricotAngel, was to use the domination technique ridiculing. Ridicule is a very effective technique of domination. Anyone using the technique has laughter on his/her side while the person on the receiving end usually feels embarrassed and ashamed, or else deadly dull and without the slightest sense of humour. These feelings can in their turn create a feeling of insecurity, which makes the individual flat and passive - "she or he can't take a joke".

As I said, these techniques can be used both consciously and unconsciously, so you may not have meant anything by it, but still, it had consequenses. I think you should think that over before doing a joke like that again. Especially after reading the great article PG recommended.
 
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prophecygrrl
I've never heard of domination techniques before! Thanks for sharing! :D
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Christopher
Don't forget that I always like cheese in my sandwich ;)
Slag is a byproduct of mining. A tart is a dessert. And a tramp is a vagrant (in fact it probably still means that to most English people). I don't think I've ever used any of those words in any other context.

I think my own family history has given me an uneasy relationship with feminism, though. My grandmother essentially raised two generations single-handed, after her father died in the First World War and her husband in the 1950s, but she had very fixed ideas about how my cousin Claire should behave, dress and so on. I was brought up in a household with two strong personalities (Mum and Grandma) and my dad, who tends to withdraw into himself or go into the back room and read one of his railway magazines if there's nothing happening to interest him. The end result has been that I find it difficult to believe that other people live differently and I've never had a role model for a husband/male partner as an equal in a relationship because my dad spent 25 years doing what suited the women. There are a lot of strong and professionally successful women in my family (whenever anybody goes on about single mothers, I tend to mention that my cousin Anne grew up in a one-parent household, became a head teacher and is now a self-employed businesswoman) and I think it's made my own interactions with women difficult over time because when I'm getting to know somebody, they tend to expect me to take the lead whereas I'm more used to being told!
 
I think it's made my own interactions with women difficult over time because when I'm getting to know somebody, they tend to expect me to take the lead whereas I'm more used to being told!

It's crazy how big of an impact our family life and how we are raised impacts us. We construct most of our view of the world from the social relationships around us. And honestly, as we've stated. Feminism is really just about saying that while men and women can be quite different at times, they are equal, and have a choice to do whatever they want and shouldn't be limited by their gender.
 
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prophecygrrl
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In Dutch class, we talked about the conflicts between Flemish and Wallon. In the past, Wallon were the more powerful industrially and Flemish were really poor and then the situation reversed. Since, in the country, there is a never-ceasing langage and community rivarly. Each want to have the power, like it was about "This is for us now."
It reminded me of feminism and how it is perceived. In Belgium, everybody should respect the other community, and we should forget about the past to start again, better. But each keeps on putting himself in the victim position.
And I thought "This is exactly like feminism. It's not because women were victims that now they deserve to dominate men like men dominated them. It's not about that. It's about respecting the other community (in this case, gender community) and take a new start, admitting we are worth the same thing and no one is superior to the other".

It's kind of redundant to say that, but I needed to say it because I had never made a link between the situation in Belgium and feminism!
 
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prophecygrrl
I love your banner! :D
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