Feminist Germaine Greer says most rape is just ‘bad sex’

[November]

Writer and philosopher Germaine Greer has never shied from controversy.

Greer is one of the godmothers of second-wave feminism. In her book “The Female Eunuch,” she said that motherhood represses women sexually and that they need to ditch monogamy and celibacy, embracing their full sensual selves.

At the Hay literary festival this week, Greer again stirred the pot in an address about sexual violence.

“I want to turn the discourse about rape upside down,” she said, according to the Guardian. “We are not getting anywhere approaching it down the tunnel of history.”

In the speech, she argued that a lot of heterosexual sex is nonconsensual. Most of what we describe as rape is much more mundane, she said, more like “bad sex ... where there is no communication, no tenderness, no mention of love.”

“Every time a man rolls over on his exhausted wife and insists on enjoying his conjugal rights, he is raping her,” she said. “It will never end up in a court of law.”

Rape, she said, should be understood not as a “spectacularly violent crime” but rather as something that is simply “lazy, careless and insensitive.”

[Weinstein, infamous face of the #MeToo movement, now faces the public]

Greer also said that the depictions of rape on television and in the movies do not accurately reflect the reality for many women.

“Most rapes don’t involve any injury whatsoever,” Greer said, according to the Guardian. “We are told that it is a sexually violent crime, an expert like Quentin Tarantino will tell us that when you use the word rape you’re talking about violence, a throwing them down ... it is one of the most violent crimes in the world. Bulls--t Tarantino.”

Greer said the culture's ideas about rape make the experience more traumatic for women than it needs to be. Society wants women to believe that rape will destroy them, she said. “We haven’t been destroyed, we’ve been bloody annoyed is what we’ve been,” she told the newspaper.

She cited a study that found that 70 percent of rape victims suffer post-traumatic stress disorder compared with 20 percent of conflict veterans. “What the hell are you saying? Something that leaves no sign, no injury, no nothing is more damaging to a woman than seeing your best friend blown up by an IED is to a veteran?” she asked.

Greer said that some rapes are violent. In those cases, she said, the perpetrators should be punished.

But in most cases, she said, it's hard for lawyers to prove that the perpetrators truly did not have consent. Instead of humiliating trials that devolve into long debates about what happened behind closed doors, Greer said, we should punish rape less harshly but make it easier for women to push claims through.

Rather than prison, Greer recommended that rapists be punished with 200 hours of community service and perhaps an “r” tattoo on the hand, arm or cheek.

The comments drew swift backlash from activists, who called Greer a “rape apologist.” Historian Tanja Bueltmann said on Twitter that Greer should “stop calling herself a feminist because she very clearly isn't.”

In her talk, it was clear that Greer had anticipated that reaction. “It is moments like these, I can hear the feminists screaming at me, ‘You're trivializing rape!’ ” she said. Greer is set to publish a book on this subject in September.

Feminist Germaine Greer says most rape is just ‘bad sex’


I love this woman, I hope she outlives me.

Do you think her comments are fair?

I am not sure about the tattoo idea but I wish I would have thought if forcing community service (cleaning) on to the ex for every unwanted poke in the night lol.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Germaine Greer is a bad ass. The title of that article, though, is clearly written to be misinterpreted. I really like what she is saying here.

She has said thing in the past about rape that I was less happy about. Something about how young women who get black out drunk with soldiers on leave should except to be interfered with.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

“Every time a man rolls over on his exhausted wife and insists on enjoying his conjugal rights, he is raping her,”

I wish I would have thought if forcing community service (cleaning) on to the ex for every unwanted poke in the night lol.

It seems from the above then women have raped me in a few occasions. I am a rape survivor then. It wasn't conjugal rights they were insisting on but "proof" and through the use of blackmail raped me.

 

[Bop]

I think she's gone off the deep end

 

[The Bronze]

I suspect she's just trolling for attention. There's probably a point buried in there somewhere but how could you take it seriously wrapped up in that nonsense?

 

[Nix]

Personally I think this is disgusting. She fails to mention that no means NO. I agree there is much more out there but at the end of the day rape is rape. It should not be downgraded into bad sex. PTSD does exist after rape. I don't know any woman after being raped that has no ill effects afterwards. Yes there are many many different "types" of rape but how can you make a sweeping statement like this? If no is disregarded then it is violent mentally or physically or both. I must have read this totally wrong... because at the moment I am really annoyed I'll confess to that and yer I'm probably typing while being a bit emotional but seriously??????? If a person, man or woman rapes when no has been said the why not brand them with "R" or something similar?
Yes she is probably trolling for attention. Disgusting IMO.

 

[Nix]

Spanky I think you might have read it wrong.
I seriously hope so. I think someone might need to explain this to me.

 

[brinkster130]

Eh, I'm not big on people having to rely on outrageous claims and logical fallacies in hope of getting attention for an argument. Like, why do you have to imply rape is no biggie to discuss the affect that parenthood can have on ones sexuality? Or to discuss pressure to have sex with a partner when not interested? Those are both very real thing (and interesting topics) that probably should be discussed more, but her other silly claims aren't going to lure people into those conversations....they're just going to upset people.

I don't know the stats or sentences for rape/sexual assault in Australia (where Greer's from) but tattooing a "R" on their face and community service wouldn't be a lesser punishment than in the US (or most of the world for that matter) it would be more as so few actually see jail time.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I think the reporter is the one trying to upset with the title "says most rape is just ‘bad sex’" which can easily be a- misconstrued and b- ignore the truth of what she was saying. That most rape is not violent and most rapists never get convicted. And sure, maybe another adjective than "bad" could have worked but... the points she was making were valid.

 

[Fool for Buffy]

I'm really not sure what feminism is anymore that's for sure.

Long story short she's going out of her way so far to make a point that she was disrespectful to the group she was trying to speak for.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

I suspect she's just trolling for attention. There's probably a point buried in there somewhere but how could you take it seriously wrapped up in that nonsense?

She's absolutely trying to piss everyone off. And as someone who frequently messes with people online, I applaud her. She's probably laughing herself silly...as I was, after reading her words. 😂

 

[November]

Greer is considered one of the most influential leaders of of second wave of feminism in Australia. She is a HUGE name here and doesn't need to say controversial things to get the spotlight. But it helps 😛 and she knows how reactive people are this century. Her work here is in response to the #metoo movement - which many women have issue with. She is regularly in the news media (being banned from speaking at unis etc lol) and her essays are brilliant. She is one of the most educated women in the country and that alone will make her a target. She mentions she knew she would be abused in saying it - and the outrage is because people have misinterpreted her meaning. It happens to me ALL THE TIME.

Germaine Greer is a bad ass. The title of that article, though, is clearly written to be misinterpreted. I really like what she is saying here.

She has said thing in the past about rape that I was less happy about. Something about how young women who get black out drunk with soldiers on leave should except to be interfered with.

YAY I someone understands haha.

So on the soldiers comment - that could be a product of her nation. When the US navy rolls in.... well ... the results of that speak for themselves. Especially where I grew up. Its a note of self-care for women - dont trust men who are cashed up and on leave. Its in their nature (and in history) to be looking for sex/release/no one to report to, and women here ARE aware of the dangers. The current climate encourages them to cry foul after, Instead of holding the men to the standard they would be held at in their own countries. I dont know which book or essay your are referencing so I could be misunderstanding and off on a pms rant lol. Our own experience in the world would impact how we swallow that - correct? I wonder if there are some controversial things she says that are basically her way of saying "Take responsibility for your own actions". Pass out drunk alone in an area crawling with deprived men, and no one is going to save you.

I feel way more isolated living here lately - so much that is just accepted here is cause for mass outrage elsewhere, and I am still trying to figure out how to be understood in a world that is SO different to my locality. Obviously I dont agree with all Greer says (cos I havent read all of her work so I cant possibly) but she is incredibly clever, and its interesting to observe her intelligence questioned when she brings up topics that are out of the reach of the minds of the masses.

“Every time a man rolls over on his exhausted wife and insists on enjoying his conjugal rights, he is raping her,”

It seems from the above then women have raped me in a few occasions. I am a rape survivor then. It wasn't conjugal rights they were insisting on but "proof" and through the use of blackmail raped me.

Exactly. This is her point, so many of us ARE rape survivors without mental scars and #metoo movements from it. Rape IS a part of life and always has been. She never dismisses violence, but she is saying there are many, especially in marriage, who would rather take it than deal with a partner sulking cos they didn't get it. Rape is simply sex we didn't want, and we don't have to make victims out of the people who didn't want sex but still had it cos it was the easier option than fighting it off. She is in no way defending violent acts of abuse - but is pointing out that if we are serious about reducing rape, then the current system isnt doing the trick.

 

[Nix]

but is pointing out that if we are serious about reducing rape, then the current system isnt doing the trick.

No it's not doing the trick. And she is not effective in standing up for all that have been raped. Hence she is not the most amazing woman on the planet.

Rape is simply sex we didn't want, and we don't have to make victims out of the people who didn't want sex but still had it cos it was the easier option than fighting it off.

Ever been raped? Ever felt the fear? Ever heard of fight or flight? Been in every persons situation that has ever been raped and know how it feels? Ever faced death if you (person being raped) fought back? Ever had kids to protect? No one person is the same and no rape story is the same. No should mean NO. It should stop there but for example if a woman says NO and then the man proceeds to rape her at knife point - you are telling me she should fight him off? If a mother gets raped by her partner with her kids in the next room, you're saying she should fight him off after clearly saying NO and scream and shout, showing the kids whats happening rather than report him and leave the next day?

The current climate encourages them to cry foul after, Instead of holding the men to the standard they would be held at in their own countries

Seriously? Isn't crying foul after the fact, telling people what has happened and isn't that trying to get some justice for what has happened? What is this standard they should be held to by the way? If the woman has said NO that means NO. Any sex after that fact is surely rape. Or are you saying it's not?

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

So, I only read the little snippet that HoppyHippy provied, so I am going off of that. It seems that her point is that we focus too much on the spectacle of especially violent and disturbing sexual abuse. As a consequence, we ignore the less extreme, though more common forms of abuse. It is really hard to get someone convicted of less extreme forms of abuse because the jail time for rape is fairly high, though I do agree that it would often be ideal to have it be much higher. If we look at the news and popular entertainment, there seems to be a fascination for sexual abuse as spectacle that is really disturbing. We love to be shocked and disgusted. Though, few dare to point out that there may be elements of the heteronormative dynamic that is intrinsically problematic, especially today when wedding numbers are on the rise and conservatism is the new cool.

Her idea about the tattoo seems a little leftfield. Wouldn't that lead to vigilante justice? It reminds me of the shaving of women who slept with German soldiers after WW2.

Germaine Greer says a lot of stuff. I am glad she is not the Empress of Everything, but she has contributed to our culture in ways few have and her arguments are usually worth listening to. I don't like it when people just dismiss her off-hand.

What a lot of people don't appreciate is how funny she is. Check out her appearances on TV and radio shows.

I dont know which book or essay your are referencing so I could be misunderstanding and off on a pms rant lol.

It was an off-hand comment in some interview. Maybe it was unfair to bring it up, as I don't remember it clearly. I just wanted to make it clear that I am aware of some of the controversy around her, though I am hardly a Greer or even a feminist scholar. I just like the woman.

 

[Nix]

I guess what I'm trying to get across is just because she felt a certain way when it happened to her does not give her the right to judge every persons story and experience that has ever been raped in such a sweeping way. Everyone is different and should be treated as such. IMO what she has said itself is a stupid and derogatory thing to do

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

What Greer says has some good points. The title is click bait and will NOT serve the narrative. In fact, it is offensive. What Greer actually said was so totally NOT what I expected from the title. The main reason I bothered to read was that I knew of Germaine Greer from watching my mom read the female eunuch and talk about her and feminism in general...

Anyway, I do believe that forcible rape (the kind we commonly think of as rape ought to carry a high price, b/c the violation is like no other. No assault invades your body in quite the same way and there's a complete loss of power)

Partner rape and rape by intimates/semi-intimates such as exes may be better punished in the ways she says, though I doubt the tattoo idea is gonna get much traction. Scarlet letters went out whenever it was that they went out. I don't think they're coming back, though bar codes may show up eventually. Maybe I can scan my new man and get a sexual history popping up on my phone, including criminal and civil misconduct. TBH, it isn't that hard to do now... most of us simply don't have the resources to pursue a spouse or partner's indiscretions... too much like the brave new 'verse for my liking.

Still, I agree that punishing rape between people who know each other is very difficult and as long as we don't have an alexa making a recording and broadwaving it to the authorities to demonstrate our non-consent (not something I'm asking for btw). There may be -- there must be other strategies we need for situations where men force their girl friends to 'get on their knees' - a power play that happens to a lot of teenagers and which they don't even acknowlege to themselves is rape, because NO ONE GAVE IT THAT NAME -- but they spend a life time paying for it emotionally and psychologically. Because our bodies know. When we sprain our tongues and hurt our throats and end up with necks muscles that are badly traumatized, our bodies don't forget that.
When we can feel the imprint of hands on our heads as we're used as a receptacle, our bodies do not forget.

 

[Professor Walsh]

Now, a lot of people are traumatised by rape. That is a fact. I've seen a clip from an interview with Greer (don't know if it was from the festival), where I was partially getting the feeling that because she herself was able to brush off an experience of rape without being broken, everybody should be. Now that's bullshit. Different people have different reactions, the people struggling after a rape does NOT need to be seen as weak on top of the pain they are suffering.

On the other hand, though, there is something interesting here. Are we setting ourselves up for a massive dose of pain by trying to sanctify (women's) sex, culturally speaking? Sometimes I get the feeling from things I read/hear/see people stating that the intimate nature of sex makes rape almost as bad as murder, I can't help thinking that if we were a little more matter-of-fact about copulation, we would save ourselves a lot of worries.

 

[thrasherpix]

I don't disagree with everything she says, but some of that was a bit non sequitur. As someone who attended a PTSD group which had many there over rape and sexual abuse, I can't think of a single one there for "bad sex" as Greer describes. Furthermore, not every combat soldier is going to be mutilated by explosives, and on top of that, it's both harder for men to reach out for help, and to get it when they do (I expect the military is even more "man up and stiffen your lip" than the rest of society), which is to say PTSD is going to be vastly unreported in the statistics.

(While I'm at it, I can point out that ignoring the problems of men, from PTSD to how they can be abused as children, contributes to a lot of violence against women, and helping men is thus helping women, just as helping to find a cure breast cancer would very likely also create a cure for prostate cancer. By "help" I mean genuine help, not some misguided attempt to make them "feminine" as some feminists have promoted, and certainly not punishing them for being male. That's why 2-way bridges are important rather than walls around one's identity group, because like it or not we're all in this together.)

I might say more later, but I have to think about whether it's worth sorting through, and I'm also discouraged by the fact that whatever I post on it will be forever part of BB (and that makes me nervous about speaking of others as well as myself).

What Greer says has some good points. The title is click bait and will NOT serve the narrative. In fact, it is offensive. What Greer actually said was so totally NOT what I expected from the title. The main reason I bothered to read was that I knew of Germaine Greer from watching my mom read the female eunuch and talk about her and feminism in general....

This is actually true of me as well. HH does come at things from an unusual angle (which is interesting) so there is that, but for the most part I usually skip threads with title like this, yet I was also familiar with Germaine Greer and realized how what she says could be construed as that, and it might not even be the fault of a reporter just desperate for a clickbait news line.

 

[Evil Seal]

There's a sex scene in the movie Dude (2018) that perfectly illustrates what she says imo. It's not violent and the viewer doesn't get that sense of helplessness and powerlessness one gets from watching Seeing Red for example (though you definitely want to kick the guy in the groin after that scene). It is technically a rape and the character is definitely shaken up but it's not the type of rape one expects to see in a movie.
And it is balanced with a loving, caring sex scene earlier in the movie to emphasize on the fact that it's "the wrong way" to have sex.

 

[DeadlyDuo]

Just commenting on the snippet @HoppyHippy posted.

Greer is one of the godmothers of second-wave feminism. In her book “The Female Eunuch,” she said that motherhood represses women sexually and that they need to ditch monogamy and celibacy, embracing their full sensual selves.

I disagree. Motherhood doesn't repress women sexually, if anything having kids makes BOTH parents too exhausted to have sex, particularly if it's a baby that constantly wakes up at night which means neither parent gets much sleep. The human body will always prioritise certain tasks above others in order to continue functioning eg it would prioritise sleep above sex because sleep is needed to be healthy, sex isn't. Likewise, it's why people urinate less if they're not drinking fluids because the body is prioritising
keeping hydrated over flushing toxins away (which is why it's important to drink regularly to get rid of those toxins).

Also I hate it when people use the word "need" when talking about others. Nobody "needs" to do anything that they don't want to. A woman can be perfectly happy being faithful to her partner for the rest of their lives. She doesn't NEED to "ditch monogamy and celibacy". Also if a woman isn't having sex, it could be for various reasons other than "repression". eg lack of sleep, medical reasons, etc.

What annoys me about so called "feminists" is that they bitch about how men tell women what to do and their response is to tell women what to do, and if women don't fall in to line with them then they turn on them and call them "anti-feminist" and claim that they are "endorsing the patriarchy".

Feminism should be about equality not superiority.

In the speech, she argued that a lot of heterosexual sex is nonconsensual. Most of what we describe as rape is much more mundane, she said, more like “bad sex ... where there is no communication, no tenderness, no mention of love.”

In other words men=bad, women= good.

A lot of heterosexual sex is NOT non-consensual. Whilst you do get men that rape, this seems to be tarring all men with the same brush.

Also, not all sexual situations are in a lovey dovey relationship. Some women just want a casual bunk up, whilst some women have sex for money. A punter is hardly going to talk of love with the prostitute whose services he is using, yet it is still consensual.

“Every time a man rolls over on his exhausted wife and insists on enjoying his conjugal rights, he is raping her,” she said. “It will never end up in a court of law.”

Marital rape is a thing and can be prosecuted if there is enough evidence.

Rape, she said, should be understood not as a “spectacularly violent crime” but rather as something that is simply “lazy, careless and insensitive.”

Disagree. A woman is hardly going to describe her rape as "lazy, careless and insensitive". "Horrible and terrifying" would probably be more applicable adjectives.

Greer also said that the depictions of rape on television and in the movies do not accurately reflect the reality for many women.

But it does for some women. Also, not all rape is portrayed as "spectacularly violent", but it is portrayed as wrong, regardless of how it is done. You do get some films and tv shows that portray rape in a questionable manner but generally if the point is about how it was a terrible experience for the character then it will be portrayed negatively.

“Most rapes don’t involve any injury whatsoever,” Greer said, according to the Guardian. “We are told that it is a sexually violent crime, an expert like Quentin Tarantino will tell us that when you use the word rape you’re talking about violence, a throwing them down ... it is one of the most violent crimes in the world. Bulls--t Tarantino.”

Rape can be physically violent or it can be psychologically and emotionally tortuous. Injuries don't always have to be physical. PTSD isn't a physical injury but it's a psychological one..

Greer said the culture's ideas about rape make the experience more traumatic for women than it needs to be. Society wants women to believe that rape will destroy them, she said. “We haven’t been destroyed, we’ve been bloody annoyed is what we’ve been,” she told the newspaper.

"Culture's ideas" are influenced by the majority. If most people think something, then it becomes accepted as the cultural norm eg it used to be considered ok to segregate people based on the colour of their skin. That idea was then challenged, people got behind it and now it is societally unacceptable to segregate people based on the colour of their skin, gender, sexuality, etc.

If most women find the experience traumatic, it's because they find the experience traumatic, not because "society" tells them to find it traumatic. Despite being a so called "feminist", it appears that Greer seems to think that women are sheep that are incapable of having their own thoughts and feelings and thus need a strong voice to tell them how to feel.

She cited a study that found that 70 percent of rape victims suffer post-traumatic stress disorder compared with 20 percent of conflict veterans. “What the hell are you saying? Something that leaves no sign, no injury, no nothing is more damaging to a woman than seeing your best friend blown up by an IED is to a veteran?” she asked.

1. So trauma is rated on the level of physical injury involved?

2. Men aren't renowned for reporting their traumatic experiences because of the whole "man up and deal with it" culture they've been raised in for the past centuries.

3. An experience where you are violated against your will is likely to be just as traumatic as seeing someone you love killed. The damage rape does isn't just in the body but in the mind. Cuts and bruises heal, emotional scars can remain years after the event itself.

Greer said that some rapes are violent. In those cases, she said, the perpetrators should be punished.

That was big of her.

But in most cases, she said, it's hard for lawyers to prove that the perpetrators truly did not have consent. Instead of humiliating trials that devolve into long debates about what happened behind closed doors, Greer said, we should punish rape less harshly but make it easier for women to push claims through.

Rather than prison, Greer recommended that rapists be punished with 200 hours of community service and perhaps an “r” tattoo on the hand, arm or cheek.

What about false claims of rape? It happens, hence why its so difficult to prove because one person says one thing and the other person says another. It's vitally important to ascertain the truth. In an ideal world, the only women to claim rape would be the women who were actually raped. However this isn't an ideal world. A false rape claim can destroy a man's life, just as much as being raped can destroy a woman's life.

You can't assume a man is guilty just because a woman claims he is, likewise you can't assume a woman is lying just because a man claims she is.