FFH: Did Fred Need A Relationship

[nightshade]

Throughout her time on the show Fred is the character who is most often in a relationship but was it needed? Would you have preferred her not to be with anyone?

 

[hoponlilmama]

Writers of TV shows often have this compulsion to put a character in a relationship, when in reality they don't need one. Like forcing a square peg into a round hole, it's not going to work.

Willow and Kennedy is a perfect example.

Often a show has enough drama going on, they don't need to add relationship drama on top of it, so Fred could've been fine on her own.

That said, she and Gunn were cute together.

 

[Altoz]

I liked her and Wesley together. It added gravity and tragedy when Fred metamorphosed into Illyria.

 

[Taake]

I liked her and Gunn together, but can’t say it was necessary. With Wesley she was only paired up for the dramatic effect of death, which frankly would’ve been dramatic anyway, so it was very redundant. Perhaps it would’ve been even more tragic had Fred never reciprocated Wes’ feelings.

 

[Stake fodder]

Throughout her time on the show Fred is the character who is most often in a relationship but was it needed? Would you have preferred her not to be with anyone?

I don't think so. Even for the death scene, I don't think it would have lost any emotional impact if she and Wes were just friends. But I admit I liked seeing her paired up with Gunn.

 

[Cohen]

I liked Fred most in season 5 when she was just being Fred and doing her science and basically being the brains of the team. The whole Fresley before her death thing was sweet but not really necessary. I agree with earlier sentiments that the most tragic would be Wes losing her with unrequited feelings. And then taking up the mantle of looking after Illyria.

 

[Bop]

I like Gunn/Fred but if you think about it none of Fred's relationships were used to say anything about her, Fred/Gunn kind of exposed Gunn's insecurities and it led to him choosing to have his brain messed with by Wolfram and Hart. The relationship with Fred and her death was used to further Wesley's story and the continuation of him ditching his morals and giving up. But I don't see what either relationship did for Fred's character so she didn't need a relationship imo.

 

[RachM]

I like Gunn/Fred but if you think about it none of Fred's relationships were used to say anything about her, Fred/Gunn kind of exposed Gunn's insecurities and it led to him choosing to have his brain messed with by Wolfram and Hart. The relationship with Fred and her death was used to further Wesley's story and the continuation of him ditching his morals and giving up. But I don't see what either relationship did for Fred's character so she didn't need a relationship imo.

Gunn helped Fred come out of her shell; he gave her someone she could lean on and confide in. With Gunn, she became a better fighter and more independent, and in Season 4, she even takes the lead several times with his support. I'd argue that without her relationship with Gunn, she would have taken longer to heal from Pylea. He also provided her with happiness and stability, two things she lacked in Pylea and which helped her to grow stronger.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Really, it was a Buffy spin off, on the WB, a network aimed at teenage girls who live vicariously through this type of stuff. It's like death and taxes, except taxes is replaced with be in a really cute relationship and wear fast fashions. The death part sticks around. Like, sometimes I wonder if Joss had done Game of Thrones, how advanced the art of killing beloved characters would be? TTYL: This is a series targeted towards women who get off on Cordie and Wesley's impersonation of Bangle.

I am indifferent towards Winnigun. It's not a race thing, I've watched every episode of Scrubs. I agree that Wes works better for the chase, and I like half mad mourning Wesley.

 

[hoponlilmama]

I liked Fred most in season 5 when she was just being Fred and doing her science and basically being the brains of the team. The whole Fresley before her death thing was sweet but not really necessary. I agree with earlier sentiments that the most tragic would be Wes losing her with unrequited feelings. And then taking up the mantle of looking after Illyria.

Ooh, that would've been even more heartbreaking. Or him confessing he loves her just as she's dying would've made an impact.

But I agree, Fred just being Fred in s5 was nice.

 

[Tome]

Throughout her time on the show Fred is the character who is most often in a relationship but was it needed? Would you have preferred her not to be with anyone?

To be honest, there are plenty of ships in the Buffyerse that felt a little forced. It was - and is - a bad habit of many TV writers to pair everyone with everyone in their stories. Imo, this habit often cheapens the weight and value of these romantic relationships in general. But that's my opinion.

The worst example of this on Angel was creating Nina just so the leading man had a girlfriend. It was so freaking dumb. In contrast, Fred and Gunn wasn't so bad. I think it came a little out of nowhere, but I could see how each character would be attracted to the other. It was a case of opposites attract.

That being said, Fred and Wesley had a lot more in common and it seemed much more natural for them to form a romantic relationship. It's just too bad we got so little of it. And, yes, I was always a big "Fresley" fan. 😃

Anyway, Fred 'on her own' also worked fine. She got some pretty decent character development over the multiple seasons. Although, to be fair, her biggest evolution was Illyria. 🤣

Writers of TV shows often have this compulsion to put a character in a relationship, when in reality they don't need one. Like forcing a square peg into a round hole, it's not going to work.

Willow and Kennedy is a perfect example.

Often a show has enough drama going on, they don't need to add relationship drama on top of it, so Fred could've been fine on her own.

That said, she and Gunn were cute together.

Agreed.

I liked her and Wesley together. It added gravity and tragedy when Fred metamorphosed into Illyria.

It definitely did, and it made Wesley's relationship with Illyria that much more interesting.

Butttttt, I didn't like them just because of what it led to. To me, they were one of the more organic couples in the Buffyverse.

I liked her and Gunn together, but can’t say it was necessary. With Wesley she was only paired up for the dramatic effect of death, which frankly would’ve been dramatic anyway, so it was very redundant. Perhaps it would’ve been even more tragic had Fred never reciprocated Wes’ feelings.

I totally disagree here. She was paired with him because it was obvious from the get go that they fit best with each other. 😉 It's just too bad it took so long to get there!

Really, it was a Buffy spin off, on the WB, a network aimed at teenage girls who live vicariously through this type of stuff. It's like death and taxes, except taxes is replaced with be in a really cute relationship and wear fast fashions. The death part sticks around. Like, sometimes I wonder if Joss had done Game of Thrones, how advanced the art of killing beloved characters would be? TTYL: This is a series targeted towards women who get off on Cordie and Wesley's impersonation of Bangle.

I am indifferent towards Winnigun. It's not a race thing, I've watched every episode of Scrubs. I agree that Wes works better for the chase, and I like half mad mourning Wesley.

I'm not sure if we watched the same show, but Angel was definitely not aimed at teenage girls. 🤣

 

[RachM]

That being said, Fred and Wesley had a lot more in common and it seemed much more natural for them to form a romantic relationship. It's just too bad we got so little of it. And, yes, I was always a big "Fresley" fan. 😃

I gotta say, I've always found this whole "Fred and Wes had a lot more in common" a very odd and not at all true statement.

Fred as Wes have one thing in common; they're both academics. And they don't even specialise in the same field.

Wes grew up in a privileged home with an abusive father and what I assume was a neglectful mother. He was sent to a prestigious and elite school and sent to be a Watcher and at the point at which he meets Fred, he's never experienced the type of self-reliance and survival instincts she's had to depend on after her five years in Pylea.

Fred, meanwhile, grew up in a lower-income/middle-income house with two loving parents. She went to study at a good but not elitist University and then spent five years having to survive by herself and learning crazy survival skills.

If anything, Gunn probably has more in common with Fred, given that he had to learn how to survive on the streets and rely on himself and, even though it's never confirmed, I'm assuming his parents were probably lower/middle class too - similar to Fred.

Wes also doesn't really ever take the time to properly get to know Fred, especially compared to Gunn, who goes out for breakfast with her and actually talks with and engages with her; as opposed to Wes who just lusts after her from afar. Gunn also treats Fred as an equal - when they go out patrolling she's a partner and watches his back. He knows and understands that she can take care of herself and doesn't need him for that. Wesley, meanwhile, takes her to a dangerous meet up in Season 5 without offering her any weapons, tries to play the hero when things go south and then whinges about how he couldn't protect her.

Got a bit off-topic here, but my main point was Fred and Wes really don't have much in common and I don't think this argument holds up when trying to portray them as the "better" pairing.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

I'm not sure if we watched the same show, but Angel was definitely not aimed at teenage girls. 🤣

To clarify, the WB's programming philosophy was, palatable to teenage girls. It didn't have to made for them, but it wasn't going to turn them off, either.

Re: Love Triangle; Look, who cares? Wesley/Alexis got some of the best and important performances of his career, out of chasing Fred, not having Fred and losing Fred. Yeah, I wish the characters had a few more episodes together as a couple, but ultimately, it got a much better performance out of him and her than playing cute couple.

J. August Richards, didn't have a lot of romantic roles in his CV, it was stretching him beyond Street guy, so good. I'm not going to claim it made him, but for a character/actor who could very easily get type cast or sidelined, it gave him room to grow. I mean, if you wanted to see dolls make out with each other, the late 90s had options.

 

[Taake]

I totally disagree here. She was paired with him because it was obvious from the get go that they fit best with each other. 😉 It's just too bad it took so long to get there!

If it was obvious from the get go, wouldn’t have taken so long to get there and it wouldn't have been so one-sided. Yeah, Wes was drooling over her from the start as though he was the one coming out of a cave and seeing a girl for the first time in his life, but desiring someone doesn't mean they're your best fit. In what way were they a good fit? Because they were both booksmart?

Fred was into Angel at first, and when she came more into herself, she fell for Gunn. At the start of season 5 she was more interested in Knox.
It basically took her two years to realize that Wesley was not just a human being, but a sexual being she might be interested in.

When they paired them up it was clearly to give Wesley his ”reward”, it was never about Fred. It is 500 Days of Summer but with a ”oh she IS everything you dreamed of” ending. Part of the problematic ”this man deserves this woman”. Again, it doesn't have to do with Fred, it's about servicing Wesley as a character.

Joss wanted a greater tragedy, and knew how to make that happen.

 

[hoponlilmama]

I gotta say, I've always found this whole "Fred and Wes had a lot more in common" a very odd and not at all true statement.

Fred as Wes have one thing in common; they're both academics. And they don't even specialise in the same field.

Wes grew up in a privileged home with an abusive father and what I assume was a neglectful mother. He was sent to a prestigious and elite school and sent to be a Watcher and at the point at which he meets Fred, he's never experienced the type of self-reliance and survival instincts she's had to depend on after her five years in Pylea.

Fred, meanwhile, grew up in a lower-income/middle-income house with two loving parents. She went to study at a good but not elitist University and then spent five years having to survive by herself and learning crazy survival skills.

If anything, Gunn probably has more in common with Fred, given that he had to learn how to survive on the streets and rely on himself and, even though it's never confirmed, I'm assuming his parents were probably lower/middle class too - similar to Fred.

Wes also doesn't really ever take the time to properly get to know Fred, especially compared to Gunn, who goes out for breakfast with her and actually talks with and engages with her; as opposed to Wes who just lusts after her from afar. Gunn also treats Fred as an equal - when they go out patrolling she's a partner and watches his back. He knows and understands that she can take care of herself and doesn't need him for that. Wesley, meanwhile, takes her to a dangerous meet up in Season 5 without offering her any weapons, tries to play the hero when things go south and then whinges about how he couldn't protect her.

Got a bit off-topic here, but my main point was Fred and Wes really don't have much in common and I don't think this argument holds up when trying to portray them as the "better" pairing.

Nicely said.
I also think she and Gunn had better chemistry.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

I always loved that she went out with Knox. I assume there's some moment when the insecurities of high school and college dating just passes away, and it just goes "Did you try asking her out, I mean, she's not engaged and it's just college?" Which is exactly the type of thing a death worshipping piece of garbage like Knox would think, but that's a different story.

 

[Tueuse de Vampires]

I don't think she necessarily needed a relationship, but don't we all have that one friend that's somehow never single and soon after they break up find someone new? Not necessarily looking for that, but it's often people that are well-liked, sociable, and I did kind of feel like that suited her in a way.

 

[RachM]

NileQT87 Strong disagree. Fred went for Wesley next after Angel. But then BILLY happened. That's the only reason she chose Gunn over Wesley, whose crush was more than apparent by that point. Fred reciprocating was the opposite of Wesley getting a reward!

I'm sorry, but this is just not true.

Fred doesn't start to let go of her crush on Angel until Fredless, with her speech at the end of the episode about the girl living in the cave and how she needs to free herself. Fredless is the episode right before Billy.

In Billy there is zero evidence nor any indication from Fred that she has started to develop feeling for Wes. If anything, in the scene where they're all hanging out at Wesley's apartment, Fred is sitting apart from Wes with Gunn and Angel and is watching Gunn play video games and smiling at him. She and Wes are nothing more than colleagues at this point with no indication otherwise.

If it's your personal headcanon that Fred developed feelings for Wes in between Fredless and Billy, I understand, we all have our own AUs, but there is no canonical evidence that it was so.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Billy. So what does one have to do to get the not gods to imprison you in an Puerto Rican Inferno Cage Match? Apparently, have Confessor powers from Legend of The Seeker, but use them to make men say mean things to women. Really, the only thing the episode was missing was Wesley slipping into a southern accent when talking about Eve. Eve?

 

[hoponlilmama]

I always loved that she went out with Knox. I assume there's some moment when the insecurities of high school and college dating just passes away, and it just goes "Did you try asking her out, I mean, she's not engaged and it's just college?" Which is exactly the type of thing a death worshipping piece of garbage like Knox would think, but that's a different story.

I can never get over seeing that actor after watching him over on BTVS. As soon as I saw him, I immediately went, "Hey, it's Holden Webster!"