FFH: Did Fred Need A Relationship

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Needed? No. But it makes for good drama, especially when she's dating one of the other characters. And yeah it would have been cool to get to know Fred more as a character when not coupled with someone - or infatuated with either Angel or Wesley - but it is what it is.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

P.S. Although, Fred did spend five years in a hell dimension. She probably has really bad nightmares based on her treatment, and being fully exposed to the psychic energy of the Old Ones. She probably needs a sleep partner.

Also, does anyone remember if she was subject to sexual abuse while in Pylea? Or if Lorne has the face of evil to her? It's almost like they didn't think this through, or something.

 

[thrasherpix]

P.S. Although, Fred did spend five years in a hell dimension. She probably has really bad nightmares based on her treatment, and being fully exposed to the psychic energy of the Old Ones. She probably needs a sleep partner.

Also, does anyone remember if she was subject to sexual abuse while in Pylea? Or if Lorne has the face of evil to her? It's almost like they didn't think this through, or something.

That does give a darker, less humorous aspect to Fred's babbling in Spin the Bottle where she assumes Lorne is an alien, and goes on to describe being naked, strapped to the table, probed...all the writers would need to add is her mentioning in sudden fear of cattle mutilations, a little rambling on her favorite cow (on the farm, at least in her town) and how she tried to save one from being turned into hamburger (as she herself almost was on Pylea), and one could see it as the brief stirring of a memory coming through the spell, Fred suddenly terrified of Lorne in her gut without her head remembering why...

But I doubt that occurred to the writers at all.

 

[burrunjor]

I agree with Cohen. Fred's best year is actually season 5 as she becomes more than just something for Wesley and Gunn to either gush over, or fight over. We get to see more of her as a character.

Post automatically merged: Oct 26, 2023

P.S. Although, Fred did spend five years in a hell dimension. She probably has really bad nightmares based on her treatment, and being fully exposed to the psychic energy of the Old Ones. She probably needs a sleep partner.

Also, does anyone remember if she was subject to sexual abuse while in Pylea? Or if Lorne has the face of evil to her? It's almost like they didn't think this through, or something.

Funny I think me and my friend talked about that on a live stream about Fred being abused in Pylea. I seem to remember coming to the conclusion that no, she wouldn't have been as that would have definitely been brought up more clearly. She mentioned living in a cave, being sold as a slave, having to kill Demons to survive, and starving so I can't imagine that would have been kept. Plus from a real world perspective the writers would have made it more clear if they wanted it to be part of her story as that would be her most traumatic experience in Pylea.

Also I doubt the demons would have any interest in the humans that way as they viewed them as animals, food and slave labor.

 

[thrasherpix]

While it's funny to me to think the demons of Pylea would be less into bestiality (I'm not even counting furry fetishes) than humans (making us the demons), I'm pretty sure Groo was said to have "cow's blood" by means they could test or measure, which implies he wasn't unique.

EDITED: Also, I'm remembering some parallel to slavery in the US South at one point being made. Slaves were seen as animals, not people, a type of simian (we all are simian, but back then they thought white people had souls, black people didn't, at least no more than cows, despite religion which I'd say was strategically used to get slaves to accept their position and obey their masters--and I vaguely recall a Bible story being interpreted to "explain where black people came from" in the Bible, a radical interpretation of the text, which some believed to this day, and implied they had less of a soul at best, EDIT 2: Curse of Ham ), yet sexually abused regularly by whites. (That also went on in Nazi camps, though I recall hearing that one was disgusted by a female who abused Jews, not for the sexual abuse and accepting sexual favors to stay alive, but that she allowed Jews to touch her at all, which made the Nazi officer less inclined to be sexual with her.)

But at the same time, Fred is very inventive and cunning, and not just with contraptions...and with an unbroken spirit, she'd be underestimated all too easily by any who kept her as a slave. She could still fear it...but probably more in danger of it by other humans on Pylea.

 

[thrasherpix]

I know she was 17 in the spell, just if the hypothetical scenario suggested turned out to be real. She wouldn't know it, it would just be a gut feeling, and could be interesting. It's not like she'd have to see Lorne as the enemy, but the sense of being out of control with some tangible reminder of Pylea could cause her to speculate in a confused way as she did of aliens that were subconsciously inspired by her experiences there.

Many spells in the Buffyverse show that they have some awareness. I'd say it's implied in the similar plot on Buffy where they lose their memories, despite some hilarious confusion (like Willow thinking Xander is her boyfriend, but almost kisses Tara even as Xander is fighting a vampire before the spell ends).

When Jonathan made himself a Superstar, even Buffy had doubts, though it was almost impossible to verbalize or communicate, and she did not actually remember what the real world was. It was a gut feeling.

When Buffy was made into a princess, she says after it was like being aware of it but unable to wake up, and after Soldier Xander sees a pic of them he thinks there must be some truth to the situation (and seems to innately trust Willow despite not knowing her, going so far to say, "I'm taking a lot on faith here"), and also says he feels a weird sense of closure when he beats up a pirate (who was the bully that threatened Xander earlier that episode, but Xander couldn't remember right then, yet the feeling was still there).

Still, it does not pay to overthink either Buffy or Angel where the rules, effects, and even events are retconned on a whim, and the writing often rushed as far as I can tell. But sometimes it's too much fun.

 

[CHK DeWilSon]

That would be like saying does any of the characters need to be in a romantic relationship?!?..

Some many shows do put characters in these kind of relationships even if they aren't the main focus for the character story arc.

What has become the main and tried formula is the love triangle which usually means the meant coupling is either deny the opportunity to be together when it seems likely that they are going to happen so the third part of the triangle unexpectedly comes in between the true pairing or they get together just to get torn apart and then while there still be feelings between them, an interloper/s will stop the reunion from happening however there will be a point, usually the end of the series where they finally get together.

JW doesn't really do the last bit for any of his pairings in reuniting them at the end for good but they do not get together when it seems everything is aline for the pair to get together.

Now it's no surprise that Fred and Gun were somewhat popular because as with most pairings that the tv show is writing for, the unexpected short term pair is the one many get invest in as it seems in my opinion that certain viewers told like to be told who to root for especially if the pair hasn't been written well or the characters show problematic traits in the build up to the potential relationship.

I find it repetitive and tiresome because so many tv writers go to this route but it's road that they don't really divert from.

Whether there is an opinion of any feelings from Fred towards Wesley at the time before Billy, there was definitely from him towards her and nothing to suggest from when I watch it that either Fred or Gun had any interest in each other so for me it came from left field and completely out of the blue.

Now I'm not saying the relationship was portrayed well on screen or there wasn't any chemistry between them. However I was never invest in them because by this time I was in Wesley being with Fred because I did see and feel there was something there plus understanding JW at this point that her and Gun were a short term thing and an obstacle for her being with Wesley.

And that's not me saying that he deserve her or she was some sort of prize for him. I just like their connection and was drawn to them and when they got their VERY brief moments I was ALL in.

Did I like Fred as just her own character. Absolutely. And that was separately from either Wesley or Gun. In fact I preferred Fred to Illyria but I'm likely one of a few that did.
I would have happily had another season of ATS just for Fred to return even if she still had parts of Illyria in her.