Final Round: Raiden vs Drogyn

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Flannen

Flannix
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Huge apologies, everyone. I did not realise I hadn't opened this thread for you to post your opening statements! (It's been a long week!) A day late but as promised, here it is so open away please! 🙂
 
BuffyElevated
BuffyElevated
Good luck to both houses!!
The Scoobies were a more effective and efficient team than Angel Investigations. FOR.


General Buffy and her Faithful Soldiers.


One of the most common debates on these boards is no doubt Spuffy VS. Bangel. Thank God I don't have to write about that. Instead I have a much more substantive and much more interesting concept at my feet. Who was more efficient and effect Buffy and her Scoobies or Angel Investigations. As you can probably tell by my user name I am a huge fan of Angel the show so at first this argument seemed a bit daunting. After consulting with my crack team of Drogynites I am now convinced of the truth of my position. The most efficient and effective group was most definitely the Scoobies.

In Buffy season 1 we meet our core scoobies, Buffy our fearless leader, Willow, computer wiz and later wiz wiz, Giles, demonology expert and father figure and Xander the emotional center. While many others came and went these four were the core of the group. They played their roles, became good at them and for the most part stuck to them. By contrast A.I. head various leaders, first Angel, then Wesley, then Angel again, sometimes it even seemed Cordelia was running the show in Season 2. The wiz on the team alternated between Wesley, then Lorne, then Fred, back to Wes, the demonologist also jumped around first Wes, then Lorne, then Fred, even the emotional center of the group changed, first Doyle, then Cordy, then Fred, then at the end... Spike. This is not the mark of an efficient group.

The reasoning is plain, the Scoobies were based around Buffy, but more specifically, a Slayer. The Slayer as we all know was created thousands of years ago and over time slaying has become a bit of a business what with the Watchers Council and all. So the concept of a Slayer, her Watcher and her friends is a tested and honed tool. If one looks at Angel Investigations you have an entirely different structure, Angel is winging the entire affair. A Vampire with a soul has never existed before, nor assumably has a super natural detective agency. He has no practical experience maintaining and operating a business, and next to none in regards to leading a group of heroes save the brief time he spent learning under Giles in S1. Angels only help to start his organization is a cocky valley girl, a drunk irishman with vision, and a failed ex-watcher. So although it is completely understandable that Angel runs a much less efficient organization then Buffy, it is the truth.

One other thing that needs to be covered in any discussion of efficiency is the essential instability of A.I. While yes one can point to Willows 'check out' in the latter half of S6, Xanders habit of hiding important pieces of information from Buffy, the peasants revolt in S7 and other hiccups, it is of no comparison to A.I. In AtS S2 Angel fires the whole staff, in S3 the effective disownership of Wesley his closest advisor over Connorgate, all the way through S5 when they take over Hell, Incorporated and work for the bad guys, Angels ability to keep his soldiers facing forward towards the 'mission' of being champion is much more shall we say 'inefficient.'

Now we move towards effectiveness. This is the area where I believe Buffy and the Scoobs have a marked advantage over A.I. The 'mission statements' of each organization did differ slightly but also had some very strong similarities. Buffy was about growing up and fighting evil while Angel was about dealing with the consequences of your choices and helping the helpless. It's hard to compare the 'growing up' versus 'dealing with consequences' as they are very much interpritation based, but its much easier to compare the second part, fighting evil versus protecting the innocent.

The Scoobies were pitted against a large array of foes from the Master to the First and despite many trevails, always succeeded. A.I. had fewer 'big bads' and they did have some successes such as defeating Jasmine, Sahjahn and Marcus, they also had failures. They were never able to defeat Wolfram and Hart, and in fact ended up working for them. Not only that but the big bad of S3, Holtz, essentially succeeded in his mission. That of turning Connor against Angel. Connor may not have killed Angel, but forcing Angel to subdue and essentially banish his son from his life was a poison pill that was no doubt a painful pill for Angel (or indeed any parent) to swallow.

Another excellent example of the difference between these two groups is where they end up at the end. At the end of Buffy she has successfully closed the Hellmouth, averted an apocalypse and her core group (the earlier mentioned 3 plus Dawn) is fully intact. Contrast that with the ending of Angel. The most shocking contrast is that while Buffy prevented an apocalypse, Angel started one! Not only that but throughout the course of the season Angel left his love (Cordelia), his best friend (Wesley), and his heart (Fred) dead. He proceeded to order his confidant (Lorne) to take a life in cold blood which made him leave the group, and his other friend stood by his side with a chest wound that gave him about 10 minutes to live. While the Scoobies remained intact and victorious, A.I. was left with many fallen members and a pyrrhic victory at best.

When you look at both groups they were based around a Champion and a mission. The Scoobies were a tight knit organization run in a modified Slayer/Watcher tradition, while A.I. was a organization that seemed to operate under semi-controlled Chaos and changed roster, leader and mission statement on a regular basis. In addition, the Scoobies were generally successful in their various attempts from stopping the Master all the way through stopping the First and closing the Sunnydale Hellmouth while A.I. was unable to stop W&H, ended up working for their enemies and inadvertantly started an apocalypse that sent all of L.A. to hell. Though the groups were similar, the efficiency and effectiveness of the Scoobies was far superior to that of A.I.
 
Professor Walsh
Professor Walsh
Go Drogyn! Well done.
BuffyElevated
BuffyElevated
Great post, Wesley!
The Scoobies were a more effective and efficient team than Angel Investigations. AGAINST.

Angel Investigations functioned better because they had mianly three things going for them:

1.) Angel.
His strength, modivation, and dedication to the mission made him an indespensible member. Angel is characteristically more pragmatic and logical then Buffy, and when it came to making the hard decisions, Angel wasn't afraid to do what had to be done. Angel, although an Informant to the Scoobies, was never really a member yet while on his own show he assumed a superior role as the Team's leader.

2.) That Vision Thing. Cordy's visions given to her from Doyle proved indespensible. The Scoobies had nothing of the sort, sans Buffy's prophetic dreams. For A.I., Cordy's visions enbabled the team to get a "head start" on crimes about to happen or in-progress, enabling them to save more people. Adversely, Buffy and her gang were always researching to learn more about something, and that could take days or even weeks. Innocent people surely died due to that fact that Buffy was simply not aware that they needed help.

3.) Advertising.
Thanks to Cordy's initative, Angel Investigations had business cards and a website, which put the word out there that their services were available. In Sunnydale, a victim in need of help had to be lucky enough to be in trouble while Buffy was in the area, - but due to A.I.'s advertising and word-of-mouth reputation, customers knew who and where they could turn to for help.


The Scoobies were forced to keep their operations a secret; in part due to the fact that Buffy's identity as the Slayer needed to be kept a secret for her and her friends' protection. Of course, it was assumed that the residents of Sunnydale were unaware of the demonic activity surrounding the Hellmouth. A.I, on the other hand, did not feel the need to hide the fact that demons existed to their clients or correspondants. Angel Investigations was also more effective due to the fact that they had more resources available to them. Buffy and the Scoobies were working out of a library with little resources and a lot of limitations, where A.I. were essentially free to do as they pleased in a professional manner.
As opposed to the residents of Sunnydale, the residents of L.A. had a greater awareness of demons in general. A.I, not having to hide their true intentions or operations allowed them to focus on more of the important things; fighting evil, and saving people - as Cordy coined their motto, "helping the hopeless".

Yet perhaps the most important addition to A.I was Cordelia herself. It was her who convinced Angel and Doyle to make their agency "official" and to start charging clients for their services. The income brought in allowed them to expand and afford to hire Wes and then Gunn. And of course, it was her visions that gave Angel and his Team something tangible to fight for. Wesley, with his vast knowledge of demonolgy and expertise in the handling of weapons, became A.I.'s "Giles" figure, while Gunn as the "muscle" served some serious man-power. Angel the decision maker, and the woman who gives them visions to follow and fight, make A.I complete. The later additions and the name change to "Team Angel" only strengthen the group.

It is important to note that A.I. continued to function without Angel. When Buffy leaves at the end of Season 3, we see the Scoobies attempting to fight in her absence, but failing miserably. The difference is that A.I. was more of a team then the Scoobies were because every member was equal with a uniqiue skill. After Buffy dies in 'The Gift', we see the Scoobies yet again attempting to keep her legacy alive - now with the help of Spike and Anya - but still failing obviously without The Slayer and her Watcher.

A.I.'s connections and clients also helped them out in their business, which made them more efficient and successful. Buffy's only "inside" informants were Willy the Snitch and Spike - who both proved to be less than accurate sources of information, and whom certainly had an agenda. In other words, A.I. was more willing to accept help from outside sources, while Buffy had to for the most part rely on her own instincts and her immediate circle of friends for information.

Unlike the Scoobies, who were wary to add to their already close-knit group, Angel's Team were more than willing to accept new members into their group. The additions of Fred, Lorne, Spike, Conner, and Illyria increased the group's power. Also, A.I's use of Allies, such as Gwen, Nina, and Faith, strengthened their ability to accomplish their goals.

And lastly, As a professional group that was more business-oriented, A.I. knew when to put their personal issues aside and do the job right. The Scoobies has a lot of history and personal drama which often conflicted with their roles as Buffy's assistants to her mission. With A.I, each member knew their place and their role and what was expected of them, therefore building a more dynamic, effective, and professional team.
 
Old Master 3.0
Old Master 3.0
Well done.
Wishing Oceans
Wishing Oceans
Good argument, I never thought of it that way :)
BuffyElevated
BuffyElevated
Great post! you raised some points I never thought of!
H
Harley
Raiden team karma
1.) Angel. His strength, motivation, and dedication to the mission made him an indespensible member. Angel is characteristically more pragmatic and logical then Buffy, and when it came to making the hard decisions, Angel wasn't afraid to do what had to be done. Angel, although an Informant to the Scoobies, was never really a member yet while on his own show he assumed a superior role as the Team's leader.


Angel's tough but let us be clear about this, Buffy is just as tough, and probably tougher. Additionally, while most people would agree that Angel does tend to be more logical and pragmatic then Buffy on most occasions, the Scoobies weren't just Buffy, they also had Giles. The Scoobies didn't need Buffy to be pragmatic they had Giles who had the Slayers ear.

Buffy is instinctual, and her instincts are good. When instructing the Potentials in Potential she tells them to use their instincts. This lesson serves them well. The Scoobs know this as well, and trust in it. This unifies the group. To quote Xander in the Body "We follow Buffy. It's what we do." They have faith in their leader. So if one is trying to say that Buffy can't make the tough call, check out 'The Gift' or 'Chosen' shes ready and willing to lay down peoples lives in pursuit of her goal, those lives including any number of Slayers, Anya, Xanders eye, herself etc.

Is Angel a good leader? It's debateable, he summarily fired his entire staff in S2 without so much as an explaination, that is not the mark of a good leader. So perhaps his pragmatism and logic get's in the way of being a truly inspiring leader that Buffy is. I would say that faith and friendship is far more effective and efficient a leadership quality then pragmatism and logic.

2.) That Vision Thing. Cordy's visions given to her from Doyle proved indespensible. The Scoobies had nothing of the sort, sans Buffy's prophetic dreams. For A.I., Cordy's visions enbabled the team to get a "head start" on crimes about to happen or in-progress, enabling them to save more people. Adversely, Buffy and her gang were always researching to learn more about something, and that could take days or even weeks. Innocent people surely died due to that fact that Buffy was simply not aware that they needed help.

One of the things we forget is that part of the Slayers power is that she receives visions in her dreams that instruct her in the ways to fight evil. Although not a direct link to the PTB it was a nice thing to have now and again. Not only that but the efficiency and effectiveness of those visions is not absolute. Cordelias visions have been hacked by W&H that caused Angel to release Billy. They caused her excruciating amounts of pain and physical injury so much so that she ended up making a deal with a devil that inadvertantly caused her to become the vessel for she who would rule the world and eat souls Jasmine. Between that and pouring through some dusty books I'll take Giles in my ear any day of the week.

It's also hard to argue about who and how many people did or did not die based on studying in libraries in Sunnydale. We could make the counter argument that while Angel was off doing the bidding of some questionable PtB that may or may not have been plotting to rule the world he could have been better used elsewhere and because he wasn't there many people died.

When you look closer, it's pretty hard to argue that Cordys visions made them significantly more efficient or effective then good ol' fashioned research.

3.) Advertising. Thanks to Cordy's initative, Angel Investigations had business cards and a website, which put the word out there that their services were available. In Sunnydale, a victim in need of help had to be lucky enough to be in trouble while Buffy was in the area, - but due to A.I.'s advertising and word-of-mouth reputation, customers knew who and where they could turn to for help.

The Scoobies were forced to keep their operations a secret; in part due to the fact that Buffy's identity as the Slayer needed to be kept a secret for her and her friends' protection. Of course, it was assumed that the residents of Sunnydale were unaware of the demonic activity surrounding the Hellmouth. A.I, on the other hand, did not feel the need to hide the fact that demons existed to their clients or correspondants.


One thing to remember is that Buffy's mission statement is not "Help the helpless". That's Angel Investigations. The mission statement of the slayer is "Into each generation a Slayer is born: one girl in all the world, a chosen one. She alone will wield the strength and skill to fight the vampires, demons, and the forces of darkness; to stop the spread of their evil and the swell of their numbers." Buffys mission was adopted by her Watcher and the rest of the Scoobies and you don't need business cards for that kind of business. Which team was more efficient and effective? I've already pointed that out in my opening statement. The Scoobies by the numbers come out quite ahead.

It is also debatable that their customers didn't know who she was. Some of her customers such as the entire '99 class of Seniors at Sunnydale High School seemed to know that she was something special as we see in 'The Prom.' Not only that but a number of other organizations knew where to turn for help such as the Watchers Countil, the Knights of Byzantium, the Monks of Dagon, the witch coven of Devon, the United States Department of Defense and more that I can't think of at the moment. As we see, the presence of demons, and humanities protectors was not as secret as argued in the sleepy town of Sunnydale.

There are also a number of fun anecdotes in regards to the utter ineffectiveness of A.I. advertisement. For instance 'Lonely Hearts' when Cordelias unabashed advertisement causes Doyle a lot of trouble when someone figures she must be a prostitute. How about when in 'Provider' when they passed out 6,000 flyers that had the wrong phone number on them. The Advertising was how they got their business to some degree, but it was neither that efficient or effective.

Advertising is nice, but clearly A.I. was not very efficient at it. I think that ultimately Buffys 'word of mouth' (Read: kicking ass completely for years on end) advertising was just as, if not more effective.


Angel Investigations was more effective due to the fact that they had more resources available to them. Buffy and the Scoobies were working out of a library with little resources and a lot of limitations, where A.I. were essentially free to do as they pleased in a professional manner.

It's not necessarily determined that A.I. had significantly more resources then the Scoobies. In the early seasons of both shows, they were little more then shoe string operations operating out of a school library for the former and a dungy office/delapitated 80 year old hotel for the latter. Later on when the Scoobs move their base of operations to the Magic Bag they become extremely effective at having the type of resources they need available, everything from a literal store full of magical items and references both mundane and rare and additionally as we see in OMWF, a fairly large and tastefully appointed dojo area in the back. Likewise as A.I. settles into the Hyperion they end up with a small dojo in the basement and a decent (although not as large as the Magic Bag) collection of books in Angel/Wes's office.

The only time the resources of each team wildly diverges is Buffy S7 versus Angel S5 and yes it's easy to see that 'Buffys home she can barely afford' might as well be a park bench and card board box compared to Angels 'branch of Hell Incorporated complete with tactical squads, a library full of infinate knowledge and enough cars to almost make Angel go Angelus on us' is that really a deal that comes out in Angels favor? In order to get these resources he had to make a deal that well... you've all watched S5 and know about After the Fall... ended up killing Wes, Gunn, Fred and sent everyone in L.A. to hell. That's not a very effective OR efficient deal.


As opposed to the residents of Sunnydale, the residents of L.A. had a greater awareness of demons in general. A.I, not having to hide their true intentions or operations allowed them to focus on more of the important things; fighting evil, and saving people - as Cordy coined their motto, "helping the hopeless".

Buffy's partial anonymity was by choice, and protected her from reprisals. Angel's was the anonymity of existing in the big city, and not being able to go out in the daytime. The latter was a liability. Buffy's anonymity was a strength. It did not prevent her from searching the areas she needed to, nor did it prevent access to any area of the town. Angel had less access to many parts of L.A. then Buffy had to Sunnydale.

It's also incorrect to say that the residents of L.A. were more greatly aware of anything. From season 1 with poor Kate Lockley being called 'Scully' by all her cop buddies because she dared to believe and all the people on the subway in 'The Prodigal' when all the people on the subway swear that a smelly crazy demon was a homeless guy on crack all the way to S5 'Unleashed' with Nina being blind sided by the craziness of the city or 'Origin' when Connors new parents report their sons surviving being run over by a car, the city of L.A. is not more keenly aware of anything.

The reason why there are more people in L.A. who seem to 'know whats going on' is larger only because it's a city of 12 million people, not a small suburban town, so even if the percentage of people who 'know' is the same, that's a heck of a lot more people in L.A. then Sunnydale.

As we can see, Angels lack of anonymity was neither more efficient nor more of an effective way to solve his goals then Buffy's relative secrecy, and if anything was a hinderence to him.

Yet perhaps the most important addition to A.I was Cordelia herself. It was her who convinced Angel and Doyle to make their agency "official" and to start charging clients for their services. The income brought in allowed them to expand and afford to hire Wes and then Gunn. And of course, it was her visions that gave Angel and his Team something tangible to fight for. Wesley, with his vast knowledge of demonolgy and expertise in the handling of weapons, became A.I.'s "Giles" figure, while Gunn as the "muscle" served some serious man-power. Angel the decision maker, and the woman who gives them visions to follow and fight, make A.I complete. The later additions and the name change to "Team Angel" only strengthen the group.

Commercializing AI was never successful enough to see it as a major strength. Staffing was never the Scoobs problem. In fact with Faith, Spike, Cordelia and even Angel, Scooby central shared many of the same staff AI did, and did it without financing. The one time AI did concentrate on commercial success in 'Provider', things fell apart. The conclusion in that episode was capitalist obsession was a bad choice for AI. Later with access to the fortunes of W & H they failed at their goals. Money is not a factor to success in the demon fighting biz. The Scoobs remained loyal, to duty, the mission and each other. Ultimately they were always more successful.

Another problem is that as you point out, they had to make money to hire on Wes so that he could become their 'Giles' figure. Well by comparison the Scoobs already had a 'Giles' figure, his name was Giles, and he didn't need to be hired or trained, he was already in place. Not exactly more efficient or effective to have to hire something the other team already has.

It is important to note that A.I. continued to function without Angel. When Buffy leaves at the end of Season 3, we see the Scoobies attempting to fight in her absence, but failing miserably. The difference is that A.I. was more of a team then the Scoobies were because every member was equal with a uniqiue skill. After Buffy dies in 'The Gift', we see the Scoobies yet again attempting to keep her legacy alive - now with the help of Spike and Anya - but still failing obviously without The Slayer and her Watcher.

In Season 2 when Buffy leaves it's true that the Scoobies struggle with fighting the Vamps. Although in the opening of S6 that their skills have significantly improved. What with the telepathic connections and Buffybot. They were effective enough that the 'outside world' believed that the Buffster was still protecting Sunnydale the entire summer. Yes, that didn't last, and an evil biker gang ran the place over, but it certainly was a better showing then the last time.

Contrast that with the fate of A.I. during Angels absences. In S2 when Angel fires everyone and they start their own A.I. is the first time. However as we see in 'Epiphany' without Angels timely arrival, Cordelia would have hatched an eyeball out of the back of her head and Wes and Gunn weren't far behind. They would have all died.

The second time that A.I. is without Angel for an extended period of time is in S4 when they bring back Angelus. That was a cluster if we ever saw one. While again the team did a better job, it was just shockingly chaotic. Fred and Gunn broke up, Gunn and Wes almost got in a fist fight, Connor tried to kill Angel, the entire city of L.A. descended into insanity, Lilah was killed, Cordelia was free to go crazy etc. etc. Bad times all around. Not only that but how did A.I. solve their missing leader problem? They called in a certain free agent Slayer and a certain lesbian Scoobie!

This brings up an interesting point, how often do the Scoobs have to bring in an a member of A.I. to help handle their problems? I'll wait for you to think about it.... yeah once, end of S7 when Angel brings that cheeky little medallion that burns Spike in a pillar of fire. By contrast Oz brings Angel the Gem of Amarra, Cordelia gets computer help from Willow a number of times, Willow saves the day in Orpheus, Willow was again attempted to be contacted in 'Shells' and Andrew assists in 'Damage.' For the record I don't count the various Buffy and Angel visits in S4/S1 as particularly helpful on either end heh.

If you look at the facts you can easily see two points. One, that either team without its leader is damaged and much less effective. Two, that over time the Scoobies have thrown a lot more helping hands A.I.s way then the other way around. In a debate over efficiency and effectiveness it seems that while neither team can handle losing their boss, when it does happen A.I. needs a lot more outside help.

A.I.'s connections and clients also helped them out in their business, which made them more efficient and successful. Buffy's only "inside" informants were Willy the Snitch and Spike - who both proved to be less than accurate sources of information, and whom certainly had an agenda. In other words, A.I. was more willing to accept help from outside sources, while Buffy had to for the most part rely on her own instincts and her immediate circle of friends for information.

Unlike the Scoobies, who were wary to add to their already close-knit group, Angel's Team were more than willing to accept new members into their group. The additions of Fred, Lorne, Spike, Conner, and Illyria increased the group's power. Also, A.I's use of Allies, such as Gwen, Nina, and Faith, strengthened their ability to accomplish their goals.

I don't think your argument regarding outside sources is necessarily very well supported. I think the Scoobs and A.I. both made good use of outside contacts. The Scoobs had everyone from Angel in S1, Willy, Spike, the Watchers Council from time to time, the U.S. Government in S4 and from time to time onward, the witches coven in England, Faith and I'm sure others I can't think of at the moment.

They also regularly added to their group, over time they added Cordelia, Oz, Wesley, Anya, Spike, Robin Wood, Tara, and Andrew. A.I. was very accepting of adding people as well there is no doubt, over time they added Wes, Fred, Gunn, Lorne, Illyria and Spike which is great, but I don't think either team was particularly hostile towards accepting new members.

Finally, let's not forget that certain outside contacts that A.I. made weren't so useful. For instance, Lilah and Lindsay could have towards the end of both their lives been considered allies. Neither of them had Angels best interest at heart. Additionally, we can always look back at his ally 'Wolfram & Hart' in S5 that led him towards a path that led to the destruction of all of L.A.

A careful examination of the situation shows that A.I. was no more efficient or effective when it came to using outside sources or accepting new members into their group. If anything the Scoobies were better judges of character and never allied with a person or organization that inadvertantly perverted their goals and turned them 'evil' like what happened to A.I.


And lastly, As a professional group that was more business-oriented, A.I. knew when to put their personal issues aside and do the job right. The Scoobies has a lot of history and personal drama which often conflicted with their roles as Buffy's assistants to her mission. With A.I, each member knew their place and their role and what was expected of them, therefore building a more dynamic, effective, and professional team.

This claim does not stand up well when examined closely either. Angel had a very hard time putting personal issues aside and doing the job right if you look at it. In S2 he fires his entire staff over personal issues with Darla. In S3 he allows himself to be distracted so thoroughly by Cordelia that he misses Wesleys obvious need for help which leads to Connorgate, him losing his best man, trying to MURDER his best friend, and a season and a half of estrangement. He allows his team to be co-opted by W&H, his primary nemesis, in order to protect his son and his love, letting personal issues again get in the way of doing the job.

Not to mention due to personal drama within the organization, Connor tried to muder Angel, Wesley almost killed Gunn at one point, Angel almost killed Wesley, Lorne had to kill Lindsay, Illyria at one point murdered every member single handedly and only was saved by a luck time jump, Spike and Angel nearly tore each others faces off going after a destiny, and I'm sure I've missed one or two.

Certainly the Scoobies had their own share of personal drama as well. Even Willow didn't show a strong desire to murder any of her friends during her S6 fall out. Even Anya when she went all Demony again didn't REALLY want to kill Buffy as they discussed at the end of their fight.

If you look at the facts you can see that personal issues regularly get in the way of both groups. However if you look at the effect if has on A.I. versus the Scoobies you can see that it's not very efficient or effective to have your group members attempting to murder each other, which A.I. seems to have a proclivity for.

It's important to point out that A.I. were in many ways awesome, but if you look at the various points raised by Joan, none of them show in any substantive way that A.I. was more efficient or effective then the Scoobies.



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Special props to Nerd4Hire and ILLYRIAN, they throw out the ideas, I'm just writing them down.
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Whew! Looks like I got my work cut out for me, Wes ;)
One of the most common debates on these boards is no doubt Spuffy VS. Bangel. Thank God I don't have to write about that. Instead I have a much more substantive and much more interesting concept at my feet. Who was more efficient and effect Buffy and her Scoobies or Angel Investigations. As you can probably tell by my user name I am a huge fan of Angel the show so at first this argument seemed a bit daunting. After consulting with my crack team of Drogynites I am now convinced of the truth of my position. The most efficient and effective group was most definitely the Scoobies.
Yeah? Well, I look forward to dissecting your argument 😉

In Buffy season 1 we meet our core scoobies, Buffy our fearless leader, Willow, computer wiz and later wiz wiz, Giles, demonology expert and father figure and Xander the emotional center. While many others came and went these four were the core of the group. They played their roles, became good at them and for the most part stuck to them. By contrast A.I. head various leaders, first Angel, then Wesley, then Angel again, sometimes it even seemed Cordelia was running the show in Season 2. The wiz on the team alternated between Wesley, then Lorne, then Fred, back to Wes, the demonologist also jumped around first Wes, then Lorne, then Fred, even the emotional center of the group changed, first Doyle, then Cordy, then Fred, then at the end... Spike. This is not the mark of an efficient group.

You say that it is not characteristic of an effective group to have various leaders at different times but you do not say why. The ability for a group to adapt to a change in dynamic is a integral one, I believe. It demonstrates resilience and flexibility. When Angel fired Cordy and Wesley, they were disappointed but not discouraged; they continued to fight "the good fight" in Angel's honor - whether or not he was physically there or not.

Yes, each Scoobie had a place in the group which each stuck to arguably, but I'm unclear why this is a positive characteristic, and you've given me no reason to believe that it made them more efficient as a team.

It is important to note that each member of A.I. is able to help out and offer information and/or leadership on each and every aspect you've described above. Wesley, for instance, as a skilled fighter and educated in demonology. The fact that A.I. was willing to be flexible in terms of who they allowed to lead them showed maturity and that they were well-prepared for any challenge that might come their way.

According to your analysis, if each and every member of the Scoobies is only able to fill one role (Willow as witch, Giles as the educator, Buffy as the fighter, etc) then by your suggestion, then if one of them would die, they'd lose an integral, irreplaceable part of the team, yes? In contrast, when A.I. lost a member (Doyle, Cordelia, Fred, etc) they went on, roles were re-defined, and the dynamic was altered but not damaged.

In short, that fact that each and every member of A.I. was skilled in the same things (fighting, demonology) they would not rendered incompetent if one should die or leave the team.

Also, important to mention is that almost every member of Team Angel had a special abilty, while every Scooby was human the only one having abilities being Buffy. A.I. had Angel the vampire, Gunn the vampire-hunter, Wes the skilled fighter, Cordelia the vision-girl, Fred the genius, Lorne the reader of minds, and later Spike, another highly skilled and strong vampire fighter.

The Scoobies had Xander, a mostly incompetent man, Willow a irresponsible yet powerful witch, and Giles - an unreliable and prone to leaving quite often ex-Watcher.

The reasoning is plain, the Scoobies were based around Buffy, but more specifically, a Slayer. The Slayer as we all know was created thousands of years ago and over time slaying has become a bit of a business what with the Watchers Council and all. So the concept of a Slayer, her Watcher and her friends is a tested and honed tool.

There is no evidence that suggests that any other Slayer had the help of her family and friends and if so, if that contributed to her success in her mission.

Actually, we have evidence against that. As Spike says in "School Hard", "A Slayer with family and friends. That sure as Hell wasn't in the brochure." Spike's surprise at this suggests that prior to Buffy, many Slayers have fought alone. Merrick tells Buffy that she shouldn't socialize no much, and Kendra tells Buffy that she isn't allowed to have friends.

Yes, what makes Buffy different is that she does have that support system. We see in "The Wish" the direction she would have gone without her friends and family's support.

So, to say that "the concept of a Slayer, her Watcher and her friends is a tested and honed tool" is incorrect as it's not backed up by anything in the Buffyverse mythology prior to her.

Buffy's support system of friends helping her in her a job that has traditionally been fought alone is just as strange as Angel, a vampire with a soul, opening his own business.

Also, it could be said that Buffy's friends sometimes hindered her in her mission. for instance, in order to save Dawn she turns her back on the people she's sworn to protect, leaves the world in the hands of Faith a unstable Slayer, and allows her self to die because she can't bear the idea of her sister dead. It could be said that her friends and family hurt her mission, not help it. The solitary nature of Angel conversely is probably more efficient based on the fact that he's not constantly distracted in having to save his helpless friends as Buffy always is.

If one looks at Angel Investigations you have an entirely different structure, Angel is winging the entire affair. A Vampire with a soul has never existed before, nor assumably has a super natural detective agency. He has no practical experience maintaining and operating a business, and next to none in regards to leading a group of heroes save the brief time he spent learning under Giles in S1. Angels only help to start his organization is a cocky valley girl, a drunk irishman with vision, and a failed ex-watcher. So although it is completely understandable that Angel runs a much less efficient organization then Buffy, it is the truth.

Yes, the structure of the Scoobies and Team Angel are different. Yes, Angel had no experience running an operation, but neither did Buffy in the beginning.

One other thing that needs to be covered in any discussion of efficiency is the essential instability of A.I. While yes one can point to Willows 'check out' in the latter half of S6, Xanders habit of hiding important pieces of information from Buffy, the peasants revolt in S7 and other hiccups, it is of no comparison to A.I. In AtS S2 Angel fires the whole staff, in S3 the effective disownership of Wesley his closest advisor over Connorgate, all the way through S5 when they take over Hell, Incorporated and work for the bad guys, Angels ability to keep his soldiers facing forward towards the 'mission' of being champion is much more shall we say 'inefficient.'

It's not Angel that was lacking in ability to keep his soldiers on their mission - he was lacking in keeping himself from getting corrupted. Buffy never allowed herself to be seduced on that level by the dark side. A.I. was able to put everything aside to continue to fight the good fight. Angel forgave Wesley for taking Conner. He learned to tolerate Spike's presence because he knew Spike would prove helpful in the mission, etc. Compare the endings of the two shows and the state in which each group was at the time:
Chosen: Buffy and Giles were estranged, etc.
Not Fade Away: Team Angel was apprehensive of what had happened and with some choices Angel had made, but in the end, they stood together in that alley and fought for each other.

Now we move towards effectiveness. This is the area where I believe Buffy and the Scoobs have a marked advantage over A.I. The 'mission statements' of each organization did differ slightly but also had some very strong similarities. Buffy was about growing up and fighting evil while Angel was about dealing with the consequences of your choices and helping the helpless. It's hard to compare the 'growing up' versus 'dealing with consequences' as they are very much interpritation based, but its much easier to compare the second part, fighting evil versus protecting the innocent.

Buffy's group never had a 'mission statement'. The forming of it was a more organic process, while A.I. was a contrived business idea.

Fighting evil and protecting the innocent go hand-in-hand. One is a result of the other. It's difficult for me to differentiate between the two.

The Scoobies were pitted against a large array of foes from the Master to the First and despite many trevails, always succeeded. A.I. had fewer 'big bads' and they did have some successes such as defeating Jasmine, Sahjahn and Marcus, they also had failures. They were never able to defeat Wolfram and Hart, and in fact ended up working for them. Not only that but the big bad of S3, Holtz, essentially succeeded in his mission. That of turning Connor against Angel. Connor may not have killed Angel, but forcing Angel to subdue and essentially banish his son from his life was a poison pill that was no doubt a painful pill for Angel (or indeed any parent) to swallow.

The Scoobies had failures, as well. For Buffy, it was allowing Glory to take Dawn and open the portal with her blood, thus unleashing Hell on Earth. Buffy had to die for her failure. Neither group succeeded in every endeavor they attempted. Angel's failure was his inability to save Fred, or his inability to resist the temptation of Lilah's offer for W&H.

Another excellent example of the difference between these two groups is where they end up at the end. At the end of Buffy she has successfully closed the Hellmouth, averted an apocalypse and her core group (the earlier mentioned 3 plus Dawn) is fully intact. Contrast that with the ending of Angel. The most shocking contrast is that while Buffy prevented an apocalypse, Angel started one! Not only that but throughout the course of the season Angel left his love (Cordelia), his best friend (Wesley), and his heart (Fred) dead. He proceeded to order his confidant (Lorne) to take a life in cold blood which made him leave the group, and his other friend stood by his side with a chest wound that gave him about 10 minutes to live. While the Scoobies remained intact and victorious, A.I. was left with many fallen members and a pyrrhic victory at best.

True, the situation was more dire at the end of "Not Fade Away" then it was at the end of "Chosen", but it really depends on what you consider to be "effective." If "effective" is keeping the personal losses to a minimum, then sure, A.I. loses. BUT if being "effective" means getting the job done, then A.I. wins by a long shot. They succeeded in killing all of all the members of the Circle of the Black Thorn and in ridding the world of W&H. And don't forget, Buffy lost two vital members of her extended team as well; Spike and Anya. There were losses and failures on both sides.

When you look at both groups they were based around a Champion and a mission. The Scoobies were a tight knit organization run in a modified Slayer/Watcher tradition, while A.I. was a organization that seemed to operate under semi-controlled Chaos and changed roster, leader and mission statement on a regular basis. In addition, the Scoobies were generally successful in their various attempts from stopping the Master all the way through stopping the First and closing the Sunnydale Hellmouth while A.I. was unable to stop W&H, ended up working for their enemies and inadvertantly started an apocalypse that sent all of L.A. to hell. Though the groups were similar, the efficiency and effectiveness of the Scoobies was far superior to that of A.I.

A.I. were as successful without their original leaders, and the same can not be said for Buffy's gang. After Angel fires the two, Cordy, Wes, and Gunn continue the business without him, successfully. When Buffy leaves and later when she dies, the Scoobies are lost and ineffective.

Thanks to Flannen for help with this response 🙂
 
Closing Statement:

Angel Investigations' combination of professionalism, maximum utilization of available resources (varies allies, Doyle's/Cordy's visions, and income generated by business), and effective advertising makes them a more efficient team regarding the objective; efficiently fighting the spread of evil and saving as people effected by it as possible. Or as Angel sums up his philosophy to Kate, "All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world." Both heroes strived to make the world a better and safer place for humans.

While Buffy's gang undoubtedly were as dedicated to the mission as Team Angel, they simply weren't as well-organized, flexible, and business-oriented as the aforementioned. Efficiency can be likened to a well-oiled machine; it achieves maximum productivity with a minimum amount of wasted effort or expense. Both teams had personal losses, and both teams had failures. Buffy's inability to reconcile her "normal" life with her duties and the Slayer caused her to be distracted at times, just as Angel's struggle with his alter-ego was a source of distraction for him. Where Team Angel had no outside commitments other than the business, and therefore more time to devote to their duty, Buffy had HS and later college and a job that cut into her Slaying time. Team Angel, having been employed by their mission, simply had more energy and time to devote to the objective.

Angel, despite having no experience in the business-world, possesses a natural leader's nature, and like I said, when the going gets tough as they say, he is more willing to make the difficult choices. Angel has no moral qualms with doing what needs to be done, where Buffy does. For instance, she abandoned her duty as the Slayer and the people she'd sworn to protect because she couldn't allow her sister to die. Angel, adversely, allowed Fred to die because he knew saving her would kill thousands of innocents.

The fact of the matter is; neither team was very effective in their overall missions. Team Angel's original mission was to "help the hopeless", but all Angel succeeded in doing in the end was getting his friends killed, abolishing the possibility for world peace, and causing L.A. to be sucked into Hell. Buffy, having choose to endow all of her Potentials with full Slayer-power in a last-ditch effort to defeat the First Evil, permanently altered the natural order of the Slayer mythology, which we later learn could be the cause of the eventual destruction of the 'verse. For every choice, there is a consequence.

The original question was as this; was Angel's Team a more effective and efficient team than Buffy's Scoobies were? We at Raiden believe they were, and I have illustrated why.

Buffy, the Chosen one, had a duty and her friends just sort of "fell" into helping her with it. Angel Investigations was formed in a direct attempt to make a business, a agency out of saving people. From the get-go, it was about professionalism and dedication to the mission. The agency allowed the team to openly advertise their willingness to assist people in trouble without specifying the agency's specialization in supernatural cases, therefore making them a "safe" bet for people seeking discreet help. The simple fact of their availability to the general public assures all people seeking help can get it. This is simply not the case with Buffy's operation. While they did a lot of good, they were not available for consultation by the general public, therefore making them less effective in the objective: saving as many people as possible while fighting evil.
 
Closing Statement


If you should ever find yourself in a position where your job is guardian of a Hellmouth, and you prevent the end of the world so many times your allies are wondering what the plural of apocalypse is, you should maybe give yourself a pat on the back. If however you find yourself in a spot where your job is "helping the helpless", and not only do you get a big chunk of your helpless eaten, but in the end you hand over the entire helpless bunch to a hostile demon world, maybe it might be time to revisit your business plan. This illustrates the overall conclusion of my argument. I will however refine and restate some points as well.

My first point was that the overall effectiveness and efficiency of the Scoobies were in part due to the stabilizing influences of Buff, Wil, Xan and Giles as opposed to the fluid role taking in A.I. (multiple different leaders etc.). This point still stands, when in the course of your life you've had a job, how effective or efficient would it have been for your manager to change every 6 months, not to mention your IT person, your own position and the goal of your company.

Another point is that A.I. was much more unstable and inefficient both with and without it's leader. At times during the existance of A.I. multiple members of each side have attempted to murder each other. Not only that but although yes when Buffy is gone after S2 and dead after S5 the Scoobies were much less efficient or effective then with her, after Angel summarily fires his entire staff to pursue the murder of his ex-girlfriend exclusively, A.I. would have died to a man without him rescuing them in 'Epiphany'. The Scoobies weren't very effective at fighting the good fight, but they never almost died. A clear cut example of effectiveness and efficiency as you're going to get.

A simple laundry list of successes and failures between the two organizations gives us another example of the Scoobs superior effectiveness and efficiency. The Scoobs over the course of their show defeated the Master, Angelus, Mayor Wilkins, Adam, Glory, the Trio, evilWillow and the First. By contrast A.I. failed to prevent Darlas resurrection, they did save Pylea and Fred, arguably lost to Holtz who acheived his ultimate goal and ended up turning Angels son against him, defeated Jasmine, ended world peace, ended up joining Wolfram and Hart and killed the entire Circle of the Black Thorn. The Scoobs win percentage is at or near 100% while A.I. chalks in around 50% and a 'joined the other team.' No better way to judge effectiveness then that.

The effectivness and efficiency of 'keeping those who I fight with alive' was also severely slanted in the Scoobies favor. The Scoobies lost Anya and Spike, while A.I. managed to lose Doyle, Cordelia, Wesley, Fred with Gunn having about 10 minutes of effective life left. By the numbers alone A.I. is rather ineffective on paper. Not only that but I put forward the curious case of Lorne the lounge singer. This man more then any other was the reason for Angels return to save his organization in 'Epiphany' and not only that, he was the emotional core of the team. By the end of the last episode we see Lorne intentionally rejecting A.I. and walking away from the fight. What does that say about the effectiveness of your organization when your emotional core walks away.

A point made in A.I.s favor was that the Slayer is a solo act and her friends got in the way. Although in some ways this may be true, as we see in the canon comic 'Fray' her watcher explains it another way:

Frayslayerasleader.jpg


Frayleader2.jpg


Being a leader is apart of the Slayers job description. I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that having a group of people 'The Scoobies' helping Buffy made her less effective. She would have been dead many times over without her group. The vast majority of episodes in some way cover how effective her team was. Just a couple for instances, 'Prophecy Girl', 'Graduation Day parts 1 and 2', 'Primeval', 'The Gift' 'Grave' and 'Chosen'. All season finales, all episodes where the Scoobies were critical in the success of the Slayer. To argue that they are somehow holding her back is disingenuous.

Another often harped on argument is that A.I. was run 'like a business' and for that reason was inherently more efficient and effective. This could not be further from the truth. In fact in the episode 'Provider' we see that when the A.I. organization focuses on business or money they fail. That's the entire point of the episode, so I find it a false argument to say as much.

Ultimately the Scoobies were more efficient and effective than A.I. Sometimes it's not by much, other times it's by a mile but a careful consideration of the facts show it to be true. Nothing could show the inherent differences more than the ends of 'Chosen' and 'Not Fade Away.' The Scoobies narrowly avoided an apocalypse and A.I. touched one off.



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Again it can't be stated enough for much Nerd4Hire helped with this. A lot of these lines are his. ILLYRIAN I always appreciate the cheerleading.
 
Thank you very much to both parties. The debate is now over! It's been a fantastic debate to watch and both houses have raised some fantastic points, so pats on the back all round 🙂

I'm going to close this for now and hand over to the judge of this round and we'll back in due time with the final result and our winning house.
 
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Yippee! *crosses fingers for Raiden*
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