flawed

[meg]

i love buffy its one of my all time favourite programmes but the more i watch it the more i notice really bad script flaws such as in season 2 episode school's hard spike states that angel is his sire but in season 7 episode lies my parents told me its drusilla who sires him such a simple thing so how did they get it so very wrong

 

[Lyri]

if you watch 'School Hard' which i think you might have done today, since i just finished watching it on TV, too, lol, you'll notice that Spike's line was:
'You were my Sire, man! My Yoda!'

Joss states that his intention all along was for Dru to be Spike's Sire, the evidence of which we can see in the S5 episode 'Fool For Love.' when Spike's refers to Angel as his Sire, his Yoda, he's refering to the fact that, while Dru turned him into a vampire, Angelus made him a monster. Spike blames Angel for how ruthless a vampire he turned out to be, as Angelus showed Spike 'the ropes' of being evil. Angelus taught Spike to be a vampire, which is techinally what a Sire is supposed to do, but Dru was too insane to do that for Spike, so it was left to HER Sire, Angelus, to teach Spike what he needed to know. That's why Spike calls him his Sire.

 

[meg]

maybe i disagree because a sire is the person who turns u not guides you a lot of vamps get sired but dont stay with the person who sires them so going from them turns spike states that it was angel not dru who sired him but there are more flaws in the plot to buffy i'm addicted to it for example in the 1st episode of season 7 when the 1st appears to spike as adam he calls him number 17 instead of hostile 17 in same place same time buffy and dawn both have there tops torn by the gnarrl but later in the same episode they are undamaged**i'm a media student** so i get frustrated when amazing programmes make flaws

 

[Lyri]

there are flaws throughout the show, i've notcied everything you've just pointed out, but we can't expect EVERYTHING to be perfect. Adam calling Spike 'Number 17' instead of 'Hostile 17' was probably just a slip up that no one realized until after filming, or until we pointed it out. the torn T-Shirts is a filming error, with people not paying attention during the days it too to film the ep, and can't be blamed on the writing.

as far as Spike's Sire is concerned, Joss stated that Drusilla was the vampire who Sired Spike, and that scene was shown. Spike believes Angelus to be the vampire who made him what he was. Spike was always jealous of Angelus, and his relationship with Dru, so he tried to be a better vampire than he was. yes, it might have been a simple mistake in the writing, but this was back when Joss thought he was going to kill Spike at the end of S2, he had no idea that Spike was going to become as popular as he did.

i vaguely remember Spike saying something to Angel, about Angel making him the monster he is, so if someone can back me up on that, i'd be a very happy girl!

 

[Hit The Books]

"...and I'll tell you why you can't stand the bloody sight of me..."

i vaguely remember Spike saying something to Angel, about Angel making him the momster he is, so if someone can back me up on that, i'd be a very happy girl!

I will - Spike, in Destiny (Angel, Season Five):

"...'Cus every time you look at me, see all the dirty little things I've done - all the lives I've taken - because of you.

Drusilla sired me, but you - you made me a monster."
​

These kind of 'errors' are the subject of many books on the programme - if you find them interesting Keith Topping's books are good for them.

When you've got two series of such depth and scope, with various writers working on individual episodes, things like this are bound to happen. Angel and Spikes ages are quite variable for instance.

One thing which I always found unusual was the speed with which a sired body ends up in the funeral home - or even buried! The seasons establish, variously, that it takes a night or so for the vampire to rise. Granted the burial is acceptable (presumably they decide to wait until they have been buried and it is night-time to emerge, as opposed to doing it during the service and bursting into flames; but the funeral home bit... pretty fast!

 

[meg]

you see the whole point is there shouldnt be flaws simply because of continutiry and editing you cant miss something as obivous as that as i said i am a media student and have been taught that you make sure everything flows and there are no mistakes for example during help buffys top neckline changes while she is talking to princapal wood, dawns hairstyle changes between scenes that were set on the same day during selfless anyas lip is bleeding which the disapeers and reapears.. i am not having ago but a major production like buffy shouldnt make such sloppy mistakes

Edit:

but thanks for clearing up the whole sire thing

 

[Hit The Books]

A little off-topic but a lot of the visual continuity errors you only really notice if you're looking for them - any psychology student will know about change blindness. It's what film makers rely on to catch all these little goofs in the cases where they can't be fixed.

 

[meg]

but alot of the goofs they made can be fixed a torn shirt is easily fixed blood disappering is easily fixed and you do tend to notice them once your told to look for them when you watch programmes in fact you can fix just about anything and really you shouldnt have them anyway because most major production of continity editors who are there to stop it happening

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

you see the whole point is there shouldnt be flaws simply because of continutiry and editing you cant miss something as obivous as that as i said i am a media student and have been taught that you make sure everything flows and there are no mistakes for example during help buffys top neckline changes while she is talking to princapal wood, dawns hairstyle changes between scenes that were set on the same day during selfless anyas lip is bleeding which the disapeers and reapears.. i am not having ago but a major production like buffy shouldnt make such sloppy mistakes

Edit:

but thanks for clearing up the whole sire thing

Well also being that I studied Media for 7 years in total and THEN I was in a world situation where everything I learned was put to use.

I'm sorry to have to tell you this but the teachers that tell you that everything has to be 'perfect' are generally failed Script Writers or Production.

Even the best shows and films don't get 100% accuracy.

So don't worry about the flaws that you see, just remember it could be ALOT worse.

 

[meg]

well personally i believe that you should have flaws its not hard to make sure everything works and you dont have silly mistakes and actually all my teachers were teachers NOT failed scriptwriters or production they trained as teachers..
my personal opinion yeah people make mistakes thats find but stupid mistakes like i ahve mentioned disappering blood and magic t.shirts that are torn then not torn is all about continuity

 

[Hit The Books]

At the end of the day, it only affects your appreciation of the show if you let it. If you want to notice the continuity errors and be constantly disillusioned then that's your decision.

It's also worth asking whether you've worked on shows such as Buffy and/or Angel - only then can you really know how 'easy' it is to keep track of continuity.

By 'fix' I mean in post-production. Now I've never worked on a TV show, but I imagine it's a lot simpler (and cheaper and easier) to let change blindness take care of the things that you mention. It really is an incredible phenomenon.

djs_lab demos

As Bored of the Dead said, it really could be a lot worse.

Besides, magically-fixing t-shirts... disappearing and appearing blood... what do you expect from living on a Hellmouth? 😉

 

[Lyri]

ok, we're getting way off topic here. this thread was about Spike's Sire, not flaws in the script and continuity errors.
just a friendly suggestion, but if you guys wanna talk about continuity errors, maybe you should start a new thread.

 

[meg]

well considering i made this thread about FLAWS it kinda comes into it i was talking about the mistakes that have been made... i just realised tho u lot are a little snippy

 

[Lyri]

i'm merely pointing out that your first question was about Spike's Sire, which was posted in the forum for discussions about S2 of the show. if you would like to discussion the flaws in thw show, which includes all of the seasons, it should be put in the 'Inside Out' forum.

and if you think we're snippy, that's your opnion, we're merely expressing ours, so i apologize if you feel offended.

 

[meg]

nah ignore me lol not having a particuly good day like i said tho thanks for clearing up the stuff about spike

 

[nerd4hire]

I can't help thinking you're setting a pretty much impossible standard with flaws, if you're saying flaws flat out should never exist.

I'll tell you what here's a challenge. Go to your teacher. Tell him to give you an example of a popular show he thinks meets his standard, then go to Google and key it in with terms like "continuity error", or "goofs". I'm betting you're going to get results.

As far as the twin sires thing goes, that, as Hit the Books said is an oft-asked-question in Buffy fandom. Curiously enough you'll find it in the oft-asked-question thread in the Inside Out forum here at Buffy Boards. I go to it and I discover Joss Whedon has addressed it.

LYNN: Two questions that you have given conflicting answers for in the past -- how old is Spike (over 200 or 126), and who's his sire (Angel or Dru)??? What are the official answers?

JOSS: I don't have the math in front of me to figure out Spike's age, but it is closer to 126 than 200. I believe it was in 1850 that Angel made Drusilla and then Drusilla made Spike. Now, this is where it gets confusing for everybody, your sire can mean anybody in the line that made you. So, Drusilla is Spike's sire, but so is Angel in the sense that Angel made Drusilla and Drusilla made Spike. If we were being more literal we would call him a grandsire, but that term does not exist in the vampire world, so sire just means somebody that you are connected to because they came before you on the line. By that reckoning you could say that Darla is Spike's sire since she made Angel.

 

[meg]

ooooh well thank you but that questioned had already been cleared up for me, i actually said stupid flaws shouldn't happen the obvious ones that should be obvious during filming like erm the changing of a neckline its simple continutity thats all so chill man seriously

 

[SpikedBuffy]

I tend to just enjoy the show instead of focus on the editing flaws. Those such flaws have nothing to do with the story and the how it affects me as a viewer.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

I enjoyed the show, I liked that is has got so many faults, errors, continuity flaws, script mess-ups. Several years after the show has ended new ones are being found so there's loads to talk about.
-Of the causes-,
Way to many script writers
The series had so many small scenes with info all over the place
Some people on the crew weren't up to scratch, or they just couldn't be bothered
The series was as a job to some of the crew
Another reason could be if the writers had to find when something happened, that was stated in season 1, and they only had two hours to find it.
ie. who's effigy was on the old satanic temple and when was the earthquake ? Two separate years were given for the earthquake and a generalisation of time.

So they made mistakes.....who cares ? enjoy them and if you enjoy the programme, even better.