Foreshadowing in IOHEFY

[VisionGirl]

I just saw this ep again and I don't understand why people don't like it. Having Buffy & Angel being possessed by opposite gender ghosts was brilliant, and both of their acting was superb. The parallel between James' anger and Buffy's anger at herself is excellent. Grace forgives James, but Buffy cannot forgive herself.

Anyway, I was struck with the symbolism & foreshadowing. I'm not saying that any of it was deliberate, I really have no idea about that, although I wouldn't put it past Joss.

Angel/us says: "I just want you to be able to have some kind of normal life. We can never have that, don't you see?", which is exactly what Angel tells Buffy when he breaks up with her at the end of season 3. He reiterates that in IWRY in Angel s1/Buffy s4.

Then there's this exchange which is reminiscent to the break-up scene in the sewers during The Prom:
Buffy: Then tell me you don't love me!
James: Say it!
Ms. Newman: Is that what you need to hear? Will that help? I don't.
Angelus: I don't. Now let me go.

Buffy says "Love is forever." In Buffy's dream in Anne, Angel tells her: "Forever. That's the whole point. I'll never leave. Not even if you kill me." And of course in Forever, when Angel asks Buffy how long she'd like him to stay, she responds, "How's forever? Does forever work for you?". Alright, maybe I'm pushing it, maybe it's just the Bangel in me, lol.

Of course, then Buffy shoots him. And obviously she kills him in Becoming pt 2. He then "wakes up" and in season 2's Faith, Hope, and Trick, he's brought back from hell.

I won't go into whether Grace's possession of Angelus allows him to tap into the love Angel felt for Buffy. Or maybe I will. I know it's probably just the possession, but Angelus' line is so poignant: "You thought I stopped loving you. But I never did. I loved you with my last breath." Whether it was some part of Angel speaking there, or simply Angelus possessed by Grace, it still is foreshadowing for season 3. Buffy killed Angel, he never stops loving her.

 

[Taake]

Oh I think the foreshadowing was completely intentional on Joss' behalf. Which is partly why I love this episode so much. I find it poignant and truly brilliant story-writing wise 🙂

 

[Kean]

I won't go into whether Grace's possession of Angelus allows him to tap into the love Angel felt for Buffy. Or maybe I will. I know it's probably just the possession, but Angelus' line is so poignant: "You thought I stopped loving you. But I never did. I loved you with my last breath." Whether it was some part of Angel speaking there, or simply Angelus possessed by Grace, it still is foreshadowing for season 3. Buffy killed Angel, he never stops loving her.

Even just look at the character's name "Grace". She inhabits Angelus's body and by doing so, in the above scene in particular, Buffy is given grace. Her guilt over Surprise is assuaged by these words. If only just a tiny bit.

 

[mayfever]

God, I love that ep, it's one of my alltime favourites!

I agree with most of what you found, but

Grace forgives James, but Buffy cannot forgive herself.

Where do you see that? In that last conversation with Giles, she says "A part of me still doesn't understand why she (Grace, aka Angel) would forgive him (James, aka Buffy)." Giles then asks if it matters, and Buffy replies "I guess not." Previously in that episode Giles has a line (I'm quoting from memory here) where he says that "forgiveness doesn't happen because somebody deserves it but because they need it".

I always took that as meaning that Buffy doesn't understand why Angel would forgive her, but in the same vein that she always forgives him no matter what, she finally knows that he has.

After "Inncence", Buffy is (subconsciously?) asking everyone to blame her because she blames herself ("You must be so disappointed in me"), but that stops after IOHEFY.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

No, I don't think it's just Bangel in your.. I do think that was intentional foreshadowing!

 

[VisionGirl]

I agree with most of what you found, but
Quote:
Originally Posted by VisionGirl
Grace forgives James, but Buffy cannot forgive herself.

Where do you see that? In that last conversation with Giles, she says "A part of me still doesn't understand why she (Grace, aka Angel) would forgive him (James, aka Buffy)." Giles then asks if it matters, and Buffy replies "I guess not." Previously in that episode Giles has a line (I'm quoting from memory here) where he says that "forgiveness doesn't happen because somebody deserves it but because they need it".

I always took that as meaning that Buffy doesn't understand why Angel would forgive her, but in the same vein that she always forgives him no matter what, she finally knows that he has.

After "Inncence", Buffy is (subconsciously?) asking everyone to blame her because she blames herself ("You must be so disappointed in me"), but that stops after IOHEFY.

Right, I'm talking more at the beginning of the episode. Buffy is angry at James' behavior once she finds out about the story, and says that he doesn't deserve forgiveness, which is when Giles says the above. But I really think she's angry at herself, as Cordelia says "Over-identify much?". I never thought that she wanted Angel's forgiveness, I always thought it was about everybody else, since Angel losing his soul brought about death & destruction. But that's an interesting point, I'll have to think about that.

 

[mayfever]

Right, I'm talking more at the beginning of the episode. Buffy is angry at James' behavior once she finds out about the story, and says that he doesn't deserve forgiveness, which is when Giles says the above. But I really think she's angry at herself, as Cordelia says "Over-identify much?". I never thought that she wanted Angel's forgiveness, I always thought it was about everybody else, since Angel losing his soul brought about death & destruction. But that's an interesting point, I'll have to think about that.

I don't think the two points are mutually exclusive. It's as much about Buffy forgiving herself as it is about her forgiving Angel. Do you remember Buffy's line before the "Overidentify much" about James who "in a blind moment of passion destroyed everything they had" (quoting from memory again)? Could be about Angel as much as about herself.

I think she needs Angel's forgiveness as much as everyone else's. To take that even further, I don't think she really understood what had happened until Angel/Grace said "You thought I stopped loving you, but I never did. I loved you with my last breath". She needed that to happen, to understand that there was nothing of Angel left in Angelus, and she becomes decidedly more badass after that realisation 😀

 

[VisionGirl]

I agree Mayfever. But again, needing Angel's forgiveness implies that Buffy felt that she alone bore the sole responsibility for what happened. Angel was clearly as culpable, perhaps even more so since he's the one who kills afterward. And, as Giles says in s3, he became "complacent about his existence". Buffy assuming sole responsibility is a typically female & adolescent trait unfortunately.

 

[Carrrrgh]

I won't go into whether Grace's possession of Angelus allows him to tap into the love Angel felt for Buffy. Or maybe I will. I know it's probably just the possession, but Angelus' line is so poignant: "You thought I stopped loving you. But I never did. I loved you with my last breath." Whether it was some part of Angel speaking there, or simply Angelus possessed by Grace, it still is foreshadowing for season 3. Buffy killed Angel, he never stops loving her.

I always believed that Angelus still loved Buffy, even though he was soulless. This episode pretty much summed up my opinion of how Angelus felt for Buffy, the look on Angelus' face when the spell was broken and Buffy says "Angel". His face at that moment was like "omg why did I just enjoy kissing her so much and why do I want to do it again" type face. Idk that's just my opinion, Angelus was in love with Buffy just as much as Angel was.

 

[mayfever]

I agree Mayfever. But again, needing Angel's forgiveness implies that Buffy felt that she alone bore the sole responsibility for what happened. Angel was clearly as culpable, perhaps even more so since he's the one who kills afterward. And, as Giles says in s3, he became "complacent about his existence". Buffy assuming sole responsibility is a typically female & adolescent trait unfortunately.

I agree, although I don't think Angel is "more culpable" than Buffy. They both didn't have a clue what would happen; some people have argued Angel's moment of hesitation ("Buffy, maybe we shouldn't...") suggests a premonition, but I'm more inclined to think that he a) was afraid that Buffy wasn't ready yet and b) still thought she shouldn't be with him because he didn't deserve her love.

If anyone is at fault, it's Jenny, but even she didn't know the full proportions of the curse (although blindly following orders without questioning their justification makes someone responsible in my book, but that's a different matter altogether).