Question Forgiveness and Redemption. What can we forgive?

[ashsummers]

Ok so watching Amends earlier today and reading some peoples posts about Faith got me thinking about the idea of forgiveness and redemption. It's interesting alot of people had far greater trouble forgiving Faith for her wrong doings than say Angel or Spike despite their equally blood stained pasts.

Do you agree? Why do you think that is? Do we perhaps expect more of Faith because she's human?

Or take relationships, Why did Oz find it so much easier to forgive Willow than Cordelia found it to forgive Xander? Was it the strength of their relationship? Or was it still just as hard for Oz? Was it Cordelias pride that made it so hard for her to forgive Xander?

This thread is to look at forgiveness and redemption anywhere it is to be found in Buffy or indeed Angel. To identify the wrongdoings, examine what deserves forgiveness and how we arrive at forgiveness and what if anything is unforgiveable?

It can be from any season, you could look at how Buffy came to forgive her friends after dragging her out of heaven or how Willow eventually forgave everyone for the death of Tara.

Or Perhaps most difficult of all, forgiving oneself. A common theme. At what point did Angel begin to forgive himself? Or has he even begun to? Can Faith ever forgive herself? Is it important for characters to forgive themselves in order to heal?

Anyway this is my first thread so sorry if i aint doing this right. I'm a newbie. 🙂🙂

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Faith and Angel have equally bloody pasts? Hardly. Angel slaughtered hundreds of innocent people in cold blood with a "song in his heart." Faith was a victim of her circumstance, if anything. She was desperate, craving love, and lost. I don't think ew except more from her because she's human. Humans do some awful things in the 'verse. even Buffy has let us down.

Or take relationships, Why did Oz find it so much easier to forgive Willow than Cordelia found it to forgive Xander? Was it the strength of their relationship? Or was it still just as hard for Oz? Was it Cordelias pride that made it so hard for her to forgive Xander?

Different people have different criteria they use when accessing if someone is forgiveable. And yes, some people have more pride then others. Some have low or high standards. For instance, Buffy is known for her incredible abilty to forgive, and Xander is known for the grudges he holds.

Or Perhaps most difficult of all, forgiving oneself. A common theme. At what point did Angel begin to forgive himself? Or has he even begun to? Can Faith ever forgive herself? Is it important for characters to forgive themselves in order to heal?

Angel will never forgive himself. That's just how he is. He's hard on himself. Even Buffy will forgive him endlessly but he'll never forgive himself.

 

[ashsummers]

Faith and Angel have equally bloody pasts? Hardly. Angel slaughtered hundreds of innocent people in cold blood with a "song in his heart." Faith was a victim of her circumstance, if anything...

Woops that was more lazy mis-phrasing than my actual opinion. My bad. Obviously Angel and Spike committed bloodier crimes, Angel was damn-right cruel. Anyway I don't seem to be able to edit it now.

Re-phrasing would go like this "It's interesting alot of people had far greater trouble forgiving Faith for her wrong doings than say Angel or Spike despite their far more blood stained pasts"

 

[SlayerOfVampyrs]

Do you agree? Why do you think that is? Do we perhaps expect more of Faith because she's human?

In short, yes. It is more despicable, MUCH MORE, when someone with a soul murders someone else. Spike and Angelus didn't have souls when they killed, they were mindless animals, demons. That is why they are so much more easily forgiven. Faith had a soul, and she still did what she did. Lost, scared, alone, I don't care. I love Faith, but those are not reasons to kill the way she did.

Or take relationships, Why did Oz find it so much easier to forgive Willow than Cordelia found it to forgive Xander? Was it the strength of their relationship? Or was it still just as hard for Oz? Was it Cordelias pride that made it so hard for her to forgive Xander?

The thing with this is...Cordelia changed for Xander. Gave up her friends, her status, her everything to be with him, and he still cheated on her. Oz didn't give up anything to be with Willow. What Xander did to Cordy after she changed like that for him was much, much more heart shattering than what Willow did to Oz, I think.

 

[brinkster130]

I don't think Angel or Spike will ever really forgive themselves. The both have cruel pasts that they remember very well in detail. That alone may keep them from ever being able to forgive themselves not matter how many people love then and forgive them.

Faith having a soul makes a big difference but another problem I had with Faith and her redemption is that she didn't seem genuinely sorry. I know she expressed to Angel how bad she felt and how she wanted to change but other than that she seemed to have the same bad attitude with everyone else. At times it seemed like she expected people to think the worst of her and she seemed ok with that.

I always questioned whether or not Faith really wanted everyone to forgive her. Isn't part of forgiveness letting go of the pain and resentment? And did Faith ever really forgive herself?

 

[ashsummers]

The thing with this is...Cordelia changed for Xander. Gave up her friends, her status, her everything to be with him, and he still cheated on her. Oz didn't give up anything to be with Willow. What Xander did to Cordy after she changed like that for him was much, much more heart shattering than what Willow did to Oz, I think.

Yeah that's a really good point. Boo Xander on that one and he didn't seem to be remotely as repentant as Willow after it alll 😡

With Faith "killing the way she did" Was the whole Alan thing not undoubtedly an accident? Was there more killing I'm forgetting? My memory is whack.

I was saying on another thread that perhaps being a slayer places a different value on life than just being human. I think you have to on some level diminish your value for life to justify the taking of life on a daily basis, even if the life you take is demonic. And Btvs has certainly taught us that demons aren't all bad.

Though the counter-argument to that would of course be then why didn't it diminish Buffy's value of life? It very nearly could have given different circumstances.

 

[SlayerOfVampyrs]

With Faith "killing the way she did" Was the whole Alan thing not undoubtedly an accident? Was there more killing I'm forgetting? My memory is whack.

She killed the Professor, she also killed the dude who the Mayor was buying the Box of Gavrok from. On Angel, there was the guy at the bus stop she killed. Wesley she nearly tortured to death. There is just no excuse for what she did. Killing Alan was, indeed, an accident, but the others were not.

 

[ashsummers]

She killed the Professor, she also killed the dude who the Mayor was buying the Box of Gavrok from. On Angel, there was the guy at the bus stop she killed. Wesley she nearly tortured to death. There is just no excuse for what she did. Killing Alan was, indeed, an accident, but the others were not.

Right you are, and right I am about my memory. Indeed it did spiral from there. Forgiveness shall be a long time coming for Faith it seems.

Anyone got any thoughts on Willow and Forgiveness? What happened with Warren is that forgiveable? If the logic is, you have a soul so the taking of life is just wrong then she too had a soul. Is it still dispicable because of that? Or does circumstance play a part? Can circumstance ever excuse the taking of another human life?

Sorry for playing devils advocate here. I adore Willow. I'm questioning myself here as much as you guys and wondering what role my affection for her plays in my ability to forgive her so much easier than I can Faith.

Did Willow forgive herself?

 

[SlayerOfVampyrs]

Right you are, and right I am about my memory. Indeed it did spiral from there. Forgiveness shall be a long time coming for Faith it seems.

Anyone got any thoughts on Willow and Forgiveness? What happened with Warren is that forgiveable? If the logic is, you have a soul so the taking of life is just wrong then she too had a soul. Is it still dispicable because of that? Or does circumstance play a part? Can circumstance ever excuse the taking of another human life?

Sorry for playing devils advocate here. I adore Willow. I'm questioning myself here as much as you guys and wondering what role my affection for her plays in my ability to forgive her so much easier than I can Faith.

Did Willow forgive herself?

Oh, you are fine! I love it when people ask questions like this.

The circumstances for Willow were heartbreaking, and while I think Warren deserved to die, I think their forgiveness of her was a product of one of the several shining season 7 examples of shoddy writing. While I don't think it should have been as hard for her to achieve redemption as it was for Faith, I think it should have been harder than it was. She came back, people acted as though it didn't happen. "Oh, it's okay. Willow just went a little dark...Never mind her skinning someone alive and killing them. And then going after their friends. And then trying to kill Buffy. Almost killing Giles. And finally the world." Circumstances or no, and I adore Will, but because she had a soul, she should have had to seek more redemption from the gang. The thing about Buffy and the gang, though, they are much more willing to forgive one of their 'own,' for despicable behaviour. I think if Faith had really been one of their own when she committed those murders, her path in making things right with them would have been cut short.

I don't think Willow will ever forgive herself. Not only did she go evil and kill someone, but she attempted to kill her best friend and her...Well, Giles was like a father figure to everyone, I think. So no, I think that it will haunt her until the day she dies.

 

[ashsummers]

While I don't think it should have been as hard for her to achieve redemption as it was for Faith, I think it should have been harder than it was.

100 percent agree with you there! They really got lazy with the writing. It was so inconsistent and unrealistic.

She came back, people acted as though it didn't happen. "Oh, it's okay. Willow just went a little dark...Never mind her skinning someone alive and killing them. And then going after their friends. And then trying to kill Buffy. Almost killing Giles. And finally the world."

Hahaha 😀😀😀 I know it was seriously ridiculous. Actually what am I saying a relaxing countryside retreat in England is the best form of penance I can think of for skinning someone, trying to kill your best friend and attempting to destroy the world. Makes perfect sense really. Quality writing 😉

 

[white avenger]

I've always thought that, as far as forgiving Faith for killing the Assistant Mayor was concerned if she had just came forward at the beginning and told Giles what happened, he would have just shrugged and said something like, "He allied himself with the Mayor, therefore he was just as much our enemy as any vampire or demon on the hellmouth. Don't blame yourself, because I certainly don't." (Giles was much more realistic, I think, about that sort of thing than Buffy was at that time, as was illustrated perfectly when he killed Ben at the end of Season 5. That was no accident, but cold blooded murder)

What Faith did that Giles found difficult, if not impossible to forgive at that time was that she tried to put the blame on Buffy. If she had simply said, "I screwed up. What should I do about it?" there would have been no real problem. Faith DID, in fact, try to redeem herself, or at least finally own up to what she had done, when she turned herself in to the police in Season 1 of "Angel," and, to a certain degree, even managed to earn a certain amount of forgiveness for what she had done. Sadly, I seriously doubt that Buffy will ever regain the degree of trust and friendship that she was beginning to feel for Faith before the accident occurred.

 

[nightshade]

What about Anya? She has obvious killed people as a vengence demon for over a thousand years, I can't recall her asking for forgivness after she became mortal the first time. I know she wanted to reverse what she did in season 7, but other thanthat did she regret any of the other deaths she caused?

 

[ashsummers]

What about Anya? She has obvious killed people as a vengence demon for over a thousand years, I can't recall her asking for forgivness after she became mortal the first time. I know she wanted to reverse what she did in season 7, but other thanthat did she regret any of the other deaths she caused?

Good one! Didn't think of her for some reason. She did seem to show very little remorse over her time spent as a vengeance demon for sure. I think perhaps because Anya is a light hearted character who's usually there for comic relief we don't take her demon days as seriously for some reason.

 

[Kana]

This is what I posted on another forums. It's mainly about Faith
I think I agree with Giles in that forgiveness is an act of compassion. Faith can never restore the lives she's taken and she'll live with her actions for the rest of her life. Funny thing about redemption and reconciling yourself with your 'soul' is the more you do it, the more it haunts you. You have to allow yourself to feel the compassion, the kinship towards other human beings so the guilt should never really ever go away. This doesn't mean, others shouldn't forgive you, but it's their choice.

Faith's functionality as human being and as a Slayer may or may not stand the test of time but it's up to her, no one else. It isn't about people accepting you, it's about what you can do for the cause, how you can help. Fortunately she has got people on her side and a clear sense of compassion so she has a chance.

Should Faith forgive herself? That's up to her. One can forgive themselves and also still feel guity. It's about Self-loathing which is something that Faith has done probably all her life and it led to her arrogance and her descent into darkness. So from a pratical angle I think she should at least stop hating herself simply because a self-loathing slayer is no good to anyone.

Call me an idealist (many do and get away with it) but I believe Faith can find love and happiness, because whatever people have done in their past, and what they've suffered, it doesn't have to define who they are and who they can be. Faith has a chance at redemption, it's up to her to take it and it's not reliant on whether others will forgive her or not or even if the balance sheet is ever going to be in her favour.

God I am like Angel, I do get a little speechy. lol

 

[Kean]

Angel will never forgive himself. That's just how he is. He's hard on himself. Even Buffy will forgive him endlessly but he'll never forgive himself.

Buffy will never forgive herself either.

---------- Post added at 07:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:32 PM ----------

I don't think Faith should be compared to Angel or Spike because quite frankly, she is nowhere in the realm of their league.

What I find interesting is how Faith is treated in comparison to Willow. I don't think it can be argued that either were lacking in despair yet Faith is required by the Scoobies to pay her debt to society. They require justice. Meanwhile Willow is taken for a holiday and welcomed back with open arms. Her nearly ending the world was forgotten.

I find that a lot of the characters forgive who they want to forgive, or more to the point who they need to forgive. The Scoobies need her in their lives. Not because of the magic but because she is Willow. Their friend. To them, their lives would be lesser without her, so they make a choice and give her forgiveness because really, they need it just as much as she does.

 

[NY State of Mind]

People will always forgive their own over outsiders...that's just human nature...If I was in thier place...I wouldn't forget what Faith has done but I can move past it...forgive but don't forget

 

[The Unspoken]

Buffy will never forgive herself either.

---------- Post added at 07:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:32 PM ----------

I don't think Faith should be compared to Angel or Spike because quite frankly, she is nowhere in the realm of their league.

What I find interesting is how Faith is treated in comparison to Willow. I don't think it can be argued that either were lacking in despair yet Faith is required by the Scoobies to pay her debt to society. They require justice. Meanwhile Willow is taken for a holiday and welcomed back with open arms. Her nearly ending the world was forgotten.

I find that a lot of the characters forgive who they want to forgive, or more to the point who they need to forgive. The Scoobies need her in their lives. Not because of the magic but because she is Willow. Their friend. To them, their lives would be lesser without her, so they make a choice and give her forgiveness because really, they need it just as much as she does.

Willow and Faith's personalities are as different as night and day, as are the circumstances surrounding their crimes. For one, Willow respected human life; unlike Faith, she didn't kill a random person on the street.
Therefore it makes sense that their individual 'redemption process' differ. And no, Willow wasn't taken for a vacation, she was disciplined and taught how to control her powers. At one point, she even asks Giles to be punished. Just because her redemption largely happened off-screen, is no reason to assume it was a walk in the park.

 

[Nikkolas]

I find that a lot of the characters forgive who they want to forgive, or more to the point who they need to forgive.

This is a great point and I hope you don't mind if I use this as a segue to talk about another character in the Buffyverse who strove for redemption and then it was denied him.

I am of course talking about Lindsey.

Now, people were comparing Faith and Angelus but I also see Faith and Lindsey compared a bit. A lot of people have brought up Faith in conversations about Angel having Lindsey killed. Why was she worth saving and Lindsey was not?

Of course Lindsey and Faith are about as different in accountability as Faith and Angelus but getting back to Kean's quote, it really does come down to who Angel wanted to help. Of these two prominent souls he attempted to save, he only really wanted to help Faith.

Listen tot his exchange from "Blind Date".

Lindsey: Well, our files aren't 100 percent, but I guess it's fair to say that you've never seen anything like real poverty. I'm talking dirt poor - no shoes - no toilet. Six of us kids in a room, and come flue season it was down to four. I was seven when they took the house. They just came right in and took it. And my daddy is being nice, you know? Joking with the bastards while he signs the deed. Yeah, so we had a choice. Either you got stepped on or you got to stepping and I swore to myself that I was not going to be the guy standing there with the stupid grin on my face - while my life got dribbled out...

This is Lindsey explaining the reason he does what he does. A rather human, believable motivation.

Angel's response?

Angel: I'm sorry. I nodded off. Did you get to the part where you're evil?

Contrast that with his actions with Faith in "Five by Five" and "Sanctuary". He hangs on her every word in an attempt to help her and even gets violent with the love of his life in an attempt to help Faith.

Now, like I said earlier, you can't compare Lindsey and Faith. Faith was a scared, lonely teenager who, through unfortunate circumstances, was led down a rather dark path. She made the wrong choices yeah but she was still young and more vulnerable.

Lindsey is a very mature man - an intelligent man. He knows right and wrong very clearly. He actively chooses wrong a couple times because it means he gets greater power and influence.

Nevertheless, as I depicted, Angel never had much love for Lindsey nor any real desire to help him. Lindsey walked a very fine line from the beginning with Angel and by the end of the series the line had broken too many times and Angel just didn't care to try and help anymore.

Unlike Anya, Faith or Willow, Lindsey wasn't ever redeemed. But while those three were given their chances and took them, Lindsey sold his for a bigger office. His final chance was canceled by Angel and so we'll never really know if he was gonna stick around that time.

This is why Lindsey is one of the most realistic and amazing characters in the series.

 

[Kean]

Willow and Faith's personalities are as different as night and day, as are the circumstances surrounding their crimes. For one, Willow respected human life; unlike Faith, she didn't kill a random person on the street.

No, she didn't just kill a random guy on the street, she flayed a man alive. Cretin that he was but still, it can hardly be called respect for human life. Not when she was killing Warren, not when she was beating Giles to a pulp and certainly not when she tried to end the world.

How does learning to control her powers equal seeking redemption? It's no more redemption than Angel seeking the guidance of the Swami. There is definitely a double standard there.

 

[NY State of Mind]

Willow and Faith's personalities are as different as night and day, as are the circumstances surrounding their crimes. For one, Willow respected human life; unlike Faith, she didn't kill a random person on the street.
Therefore it makes sense that their individual 'redemption process' differ. And no, Willow wasn't taken for a vacation, she was disciplined and taught how to control her powers. At one point, she even asks Giles to be punished. Just because her redemption largely happened off-screen, is no reason to assume it was a walk in the park.

I see what your saying...but how did Willow respect human life more than Faith? Faith killed random people, however they were low life people or people that organized themselves with the wrong people...Willow tried to kill all humanity and would of did it if it wasn't for Giles and Xander....they got thru to her just like Angel got thru to Faith...there both people who went down the wrong path...one death over five still equals a murderer...the power took over Willow cause of her angered emotions just like Faith's emotions who already had power