Question Forgiveness and Redemption. What can we forgive?

[The Unspoken]

No, she didn't just kill a random guy on the street, she flayed a man alive. Cretin that he was but still, it can hardly be called respect for human life. Not when she was killing Warren, not when she was beating Giles to a pulp and certainly not when she tried to end the world.

How does learning to control her powers equal seeking redemption? It's no more redemption than Angel seeking the guidance of the Swami. There is definitely a double standard there.

Willow killed the person responsible for Tara's death, but Faith killed indiscriminately. She could've just taken that guy's wallet; beating him to death was completely unnecessary.

Willow thought she was HELPING humanity when she tried to end the world. It's entirely different from individual murders, and a different set of morals and principles governs this situation.

 

[Justme]

Willow and Faith's personalities are as different as night and day, as are the circumstances surrounding their crimes. For one, Willow respected human life; unlike Faith, she didn't kill a random person on the street.
Therefore it makes sense that their individual 'redemption process' differ. And no, Willow wasn't taken for a vacation, she was disciplined and taught how to control her powers. At one point, she even asks Giles to be punished. Just because her redemption largely happened off-screen, is no reason to assume it was a walk in the park.

This is just a huge selective double standard.

 

[The Unspoken]

This is just a huge selective double standard.

I wish I could make my arguments invisible. I would win every discussion. Maybe if I slide my cursor across the screen, I might find them...

 

[Nikkolas]

But when why did she stop?
Why did Xander's talk of love and support make her lose her resolve to end the world for its own good?

The fact is, Willow talked a big game about helping everyone by killing them. But in reality she just wanted to escape from her own grief. Everything she did after killing Warren was unjustified and there was no altruism in her goal to cause an apocalypse. She just wanted to make all the pain go away for her own sake.

That's why the magic she stole from Giles, which reminded her of who she really was, made her stop.

Faith's kills were a lot more honest, that is for sure. At first she just wanted to be a good bad little girl to the Mayor. He instilled in her evil wholesome values and she wanted to make him happy.

After his death she pretty much spiraled out of control and just killed because she hated herself and thought "I'm evil. I should do evil things."

 

[Justme]

Willow killed the person responsible for Tara's death, but Faith killed indiscriminately. She could've just taken that guy's wallet; beating him to death was completely unnecessary.

Willow thought she was HELPING humanity when she tried to end the world. It's entirely different from individual murders, and a different set of morals and principles governs this situation.

Faith thought she was past redemption when she beat that man. She didn't just asked for punishment she tried to get Angel to kill her. Willow wanted to kill two relatively innocent geeks. Not to mention she wanted to effectively kill Dawn, a child who was heartbroken over the loss of a surrogate parent.

---------- Post added at 08:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:45 PM ----------

I wish I could make my arguments invisible. I would win every discussion. Maybe if I slide my cursor across the screen, I might find them...

I elaborate below, I mainly didn't there because Kean and NY did.

Invisible arguments are not much worse than incredibly selective ones 😉

Edited Murdered, it's been a while since I watched so I just accepted it but seems it isn't cut and dried that she did

 

[Kean]

Willow killed the person responsible for Tara's death, but Faith killed indiscriminately. She could've just taken that guy's wallet; beating him to death was completely unnecessary.

Willow thought she was HELPING humanity when she tried to end the world. It's entirely different from individual murders, and a different set of morals and principles governs this situation.

Faith didn't kill indiscriminately at all. She killed the Allan by accident and then killed the Professor under the instruction of Wilkins. That guy on Angel she beat savagely and then took his keys and wallet, but she didn't kill him. Not that any of this is pardonable but she wasn't killing indiscriminately.

Willow couldn't handle the pain of humanity so tried to end it completely so she wouldn't have to feel it anymore. That isn't the same as wanting to help humanity.

See, even for us fans we can forgive and justify the actions of the Scoobies that we love and empathise with, but that forgiveness and empathy is not universal to all Scoobies.

---------- Post added at 08:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 PM ----------

Justme agrees: Cordelia felt the pain of humanity too, she did the decent thing and went insane.

LMFAO! Love this.

 

[The Unspoken]

Faith didn't kill indiscriminately at all. She killed the Allan by accident and then killed the Professor under the instruction of Wilkins. That guy on Angel she beat savagely and then took his keys and wallet, but she didn't kill him. Not that any of this is pardonable but she wasn't killing indiscriminately.

Willow couldn't handle the pain of humanity so tried to end it completely so she wouldn't have to feel it anymore. That isn't the same as wanting to help humanity.

See, even for us fans we can forgive and justify the actions of the Scoobies that we love and empathise with, but not all of them.

My bad, I thought the guy on Angel died later. Still, he was in critical condition, and with Faith's use of lethal force, she might as well have killed him - simply because she was hard up for cash.
Murdering the professor was unnecessary; she only had to steal from him. That she was instructed to do so by the mayor doesn't make her any less culpable.
My point was that because their motivations for killing are so different, that's likely to affect the way they seek redemption.

You are right about her motivations for ending the world, it was (in part) selfish. It is however completely different from individual murders. Since this thread focused on the latter, I thought I'd make the distinction.

 

[Kean]

My bad, I thought the guy on Angel died later. Still, he was in critical condition, and with Faith's use of lethal force, she might as well have killed him - simply because she was hard up for cash.
Murdering the professor was unnecessary; she only had to steal from him. That she was instructed to do so by the mayor doesn't make her any less culpable.

Totally agree. There is no excuse for what she did. However, I personally appreciate Faith's willingness to take responsibility for what she did.

That's where I lose it a bit with Willow because I can't see any indication of her doing that.

My point was that because their motivations for killing are so different, that's likely to affect the way they seek redemption

.

Echoing my last point this is where Willow falls down for me because it was her lover that was murdered she felt owed her pound of flesh. I can't help but feel that as a human, taking any life should weigh heavy on you. Regardless of the circumstances.

You are right about her motivations for ending the world, it was (in part) selfish.

This is actually where Willow and Faith are alike. They use other people to fatally exercise their internal turmoil.

 

[ashsummers]

Call me an idealist (many do and get away with it) but I believe Faith can find love and happiness, because whatever people have done in their past, and what they've suffered, it doesn't have to define who they are and who they can be. Faith has a chance at redemption, it's up to her to take it and it's not reliant on whether others will forgive her or not or even if the balance sheet is ever going to be in her favour.

God I am like Angel, I do get a little speechy. lol

Yay, forgiveness that's what I was hoping to aim for with this thread. The possibility for redemption.

---------- Post added at 11:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:39 PM ----------

For one, Willow respected human life; unlike Faith, she didn't kill a random person on the street.
.

I'm not sure under what definition attempting to destroy the entire world and everyone in it is classed as respect for human life 😉

---------- Post added 11-11-2010 at 12:31 AM ---------- Previous post was 11-10-2010 at 11:46 PM ----------

Its interesting Willow found it so difficult to forgive Faith for accidentally killing Alan

"It's way too late. You know, it didn't have to be this way. But you made your choice. I know you had a tough life. I know that some people think you had a lot of bad breaks. Well, boo hoo. Poor you." Faith to Willow in Choices

For Willow Faith was always so beyond redemption (which is understandable given their history) Even straight after Alan's murder when Buffy and the others are discussing handing Faith over to the Watchers council for punishment and rehabilitation she intervenes

"she murdered someone and accused Buffy. Then she hurt Xander. I hate to say
it, but maybe she belongs behind bars."

So at the start of Season 7 she finds herself against all odds in very similar circumstances to Faith. She who had previously believed that no matter what the circumstance or "bad breaks" you had in life you had no excuse for murder (even accidental it seems)

Yet it is a bad break (a crazy bad break) that results in Tara's death. Faith had lost her mother and her watcher and you really can't underestimate the power of grief and loneliness in the breaking of the human spirit, believe me. Which is a lesson Willow has to learn the hard way unfortunately.

But this for me is the whole point about arriving at Redemption and forgiveness. It is a difficult journey, sometimes you have to fall hard yourself to realise we are all fallible and everyone has a breaking point.

And all of us so unwilling to forgive Faith, or indeed anyone else in our own lives should try to bare that in mind. Sometimes you have just have to forgive, you have to let things go. Which as much true for the wrong doer as the wronged.

 

[Nikkolas]

The Scoobies all have their prejudices.

Xander's moronic refusal to understand that Angel with a soul and Angel without a soul are not in fact the same is his one. Willow of course, as ^ pointed out, had a problem with Faith.

And it's really self-righteous talk coming from selfish people. Xander's original problem with Angel was because Buffy only had eyes for him. Willow resented how much Buffy preferred spending time with Faith when she, Willow, was supposed to be Buffy's best friend.

The holier-than-thou attitudes, rushing to deny redemption, they're all motivated by petty things. Even Xander's sticking up for Faith originally was just because she had sex with him.

 

[sosa lola]

Even Xander's sticking up for Faith originally was just because she had sex with him.

Aww. He thought they had a connection. So innocent and adorable... before the whole attempted rape thing. I hate that that storyline was dropped.

 

[Icarium]

And it's really self-righteous talk coming from selfish people. Xander's original problem with Angel was because Buffy only had eyes for him. Willow resented how much Buffy preferred spending time with Faith when she, Willow, was supposed to be Buffy's best friend.

Yes, that's totally it. Nothing to do with the sheer lunacy of the idea of Slayer dating a vampire or the fact that Faith turned against the Scoobies and was a murderer. It was all just jealousy. [/sarcasm]

Faith didn't kill indiscriminately at all. She killed the Allan by accident and then killed the Professor under the instruction of Wilkins.

She killed the guy with Box of Gavroc for no reason other than to suck up to the Mayor some more.

Beware, a long rant to follow! In my opinion, ME abused "redemption" so much that the concept pretty much lost meaning. In the end so many characters were "redeemed" or in the process of being "redeemed" that there was neither screen time nor desire to actually explore that and it pretty much boiled down to "X feels a bit bad for his past transgressions". That was it, basically. And some like Anya didn't even need to feel bad at all to be accepted into the Scooby gang. She was regularly joking about her millennium of bloody murders. If that's not a clear sign of the moral bankruptcy of the show, I don't know what is.

A good story about forgiveness requires lack of whitewashing, asking of hard question, plenty of introspection. Willow, Anya, Spike, Andrew, etc got precious little of that. They were pretty much forgiven whenever the plot required it. Neither of them seems much bothered by their burden of guilt. Even Angel very often seems to be more sorry for himself than the people whose lives he has ruined...which could have made for great drama but often across as rather unintentional and.

Examples of the terrible way guilt and forgiveness was handled:

- Faith tries to strangle Xander. Somehow Buffy is concern is all about Faith and nothing about Xander and after that episode nobody mentions the incident, IIRC.
- Anya's utterly inexplicable acceptance into the Scooby gang.
- Andrew not being in jail. Faith not being in jail.
- Xander being the cause of people burning to death is treated as a joke by him and all of his friends.
- Connor murders people and is Jasmine's right hand. His "punishment"? A new chance in life. Damn, Faith really got a rough deal compared to that...
- Willow's attempt to destroy the world isn't really seen by big deal by anyone
- Spike not being staked again and again

To summarise, if you are close to the main characters you can pretty much get away with anything. This trend seems set to continue in the comics too. Now, I don't want to be a totally black and white story in which everyone who isn't a paragon of virtue must be punished cruelly but for my money ME swung way too far in the opposite direction. Much of that probably had to do with keeping people in the show because they liked the characters but never bothering to really establish a good reason why the good guys put up with the likes of Spike, ANya and Andrew. Or why the Watcher's Council didn't kill Faith while she in a coma.

 

[Nikkolas]

Yes, that's totally it. Nothing to do with the sheer lunacy of the idea of Slayer dating a vampire or the fact that Faith turned against the Scoobies and was a murderer. It was all just jealousy. [/sarcasm]

1. Vampire with a soul is a whole different kettle of fish to a regular vampire. Xander objecting to Buffy with Spike iN Season 6 would make sense but Angel is just like any other feeling, caring being that walks the Earth. He just has a special diet and superpowers.

2. At this point Willow was all for handing her over she had killed one man by accident and she hadn't gone to the Mayor. She hasn't turned against the Scoobies and calling her a murderer is a bit of a stretch.

Plus, it's like Giles said. This sort of thing has happened before. In a war, some innocents are caught in the crossfire.

And some like Anya didn't even need to feel bad at all to be accepted into the Scooby gang. She was regularly joking about her millennium of bloody murders. If that's not a clear sign of the moral bankruptcy of the show, I don't know what is.

She was a demon and when she still lived as a human it was a very different time. Her mentality is not that of a 20th century human being. There is no moral bankruptcy. It's just she is not from our time and does not understand our ways.

- Connor murders people and is Jasmine's right hand. His "punishment"? A new chance in life. Damn, Faith really got a rough deal compared to that...

Well Connor is really a special case. He was raised by a lunatic in a hell dimension and then upon his return to Earth the writers saw fit to have him fall for every manipulation ever attempted by anyone. He was used every second of his life.

I don't blame him for being psychotic and there was really no way to fix it or help him.

To summarise, if you are close to the main characters you can pretty much get away with anything. This trend seems set to continue in the comics too. Now, I don't want to be a totally black and white story in which everyone who isn't a paragon of virtue must be punished cruelly but for my money ME swung way too far in the opposite direction. Much of that probably had to do with keeping people in the show because they liked the characters but never bothering to really establish a good reason why the good guys put up with the likes of Spike, ANya and Andrew. Or why the Watcher's Council didn't kill Faith while she in a coma.

The main characters are above the law. Or they should be. They simply know more and can do more for the good fight than police or the law can.

Also the Watchers' Council is inept. That's why.

 

[Icarium]

At this point Willow was all for handing her over she had killed one man by accident and she hadn't gone to the Mayor. She hasn't turned against the Scoobies and calling her a murderer is a bit of a stretch.

Well, I thought you meant Willow's later behaviour. I fail to see how Willow being surly about her best friend ignoring her has anything to do with Faith's crimes since it happened before those did and Willow actually ended up blaming herself, not Buffy or Faith.

1. Vampire with a soul is a whole different kettle of fish to a regular vampire. Xander objecting to Buffy with Spike iN Season 6 would make sense but Angel is just like any other feeling, caring being that walks the Earth. He just has a special diet and superpowers.

And a desire to, you know, drink human blood. If at one point he is to decide that being evil is an "easy way to live" who is going to have to clean the mess? Buffy. Plus, it's weird that if Buffy had decided to date someone say 50 years old, probably everyone would have been on Xander's side but if she wants to date someone 250 year old, that's really romantic and no one should say a thing.

She was a demon and when she still lived as a human it was a very different time. Her mentality is not that of a 20th century human being. There is no moral bankruptcy. It's just she is not from our time and does not understand our ways.

Only if you believe that everyone who lived in the 9th century was a psychopath. There is a world of difference between having anachronistic morality and joking about a millennium of bloody murders that you have committed.

The main characters are above the law. Or they should be. They simply know more and can do more for the good fight than police or the law can.

To quote Willow: "Sure, in a fascist society".

 

[Nikkolas]

And a desire to, you know, drink human blood. If at one point he is to decide that being evil is an "easy way to live" who is going to have to clean the mess? Buffy.

...that's retarded. Any sentient being can decide at any time that "evil is an easy way to live". Angel is no more inherently corruptible or pone to evil than a human being.

Plus, it's weird that if Buffy had decided to date someone say 50 years old, probably everyone would have been on Xander's side but if she wants to date someone 250 year old, that's really romantic and no one should say a thing.

Pointless speculation.

Only if you believe that everyone who lived in the 9th century was a psychopath. There is a world of difference between having anachronistic morality and joking about a millennium of bloody murders that you have committed.

Fair point.

To quote Willow: "Sure, in a fascist society".

Which is, in many ways, superior to our own. But that's mostly because every form of government has serious flaws.

That's a whole different topic however.

And the Slayer and others are already above the law. Why do you think the Watchers' Council is how it is? They are organized to bend and break the law according to their own whim.

 

[Icarium]

Any sentient being can decide at any time that "evil is an easy way to live". Angel is no more inherently corruptible or pone to evil than a human being.

True but neither Xander nor Willow has a literal lust for human blood. And back when Willwo wasn't superwitch, if anyone is Buffy's life who wasn't Angel had decided to go on a murder spree, there was police, judges, etc, so Buffy wouldn't have to be judge, jury and executioner. Angel's case is different.

Pointless speculation.

Really? So if Buffy had decided to date say Snyder, you'd think the right thing for Xander to do would have been to support her?

And the Slayer and others are already above the law. Why do you think the Watchers' Council is how it is? They are organized to bend and break the law according to their own whim.

Even if we accept that as truth, Buffy is supposed to be an antithesis of the Council. She certainly doesn't feel herself above the wall when it comes to murder. Which is why it's incredibly frustrating to see her aid and abet Andrew or allow Anya to grant wishes for months or give Spike a zillion chances.

 

[ashsummers]

To make an additional point about the whole Willow versus Faith redemption for murder dealy. I think it's important to bare in mind as i've said on another thread about Faith. Faith is completely different from regular humans. She's a slayer. The meaning is in the title. Death is what she is, all she knows. To quote that post outta laziness "They take life on a daily basis so obviously the lines are a bit blurred, value for life has to be diminished somewhat to justify regular slayage." Willow has no such excuse. (Although of course i admit she has her own set of justifiable ones i.e. Tara.)

Buffy is the first to admit given different circumstances Faith could have been her

I know Faith isn't exactly on the
cover of Sanity Fair, but she's had
it rough. Different circumstances,
that could be me.

Buffy to Willow in Doppelgangland

But what made Buffy different was her friends.

Any Buffy fan watching 'The Freshman' when that rubbish blonde vampire breaks Buffy's arm (or so we think) could be mistaken for thinking "What? Lame ass writing. That low level vamp could never take out our Buff!" But the writers were trying to make a point about the source of Buffy's strength. That so much of it comes from her friends and the confidence they instill in her. And they take that metaphor quite literal at the end of the season in Primeaval. That is what always made Buffy so much stronger than slayers before. Even the first slayer in Restless defines the slayer

"No"¦ friends"¦ just the kill"¦ we
are"¦ alone."

But Buffy is not and that makes her turning to the dark side of the force an impossibility unlike with Faith.

Circumstance is what gives the whole Buffy and Faith its dichotomy.

We can't control the way we grow up.

Buffy about Faith again to Willow in Doppelgangland.

 

[Justme]

Really? So if Buffy had decided to date say Snyder, you'd think the right thing for Xander to do would have been to support her?

The Age gap thing between Buffy and Angel always irks me. It's not even so much the gap as the the fact Buffy is soooo young. Isn't she 15 when she gets her calling? Isn't Angel supposed to be 26 in human years? Just this in itself, to me, makes Angels "love" a little blergh.

 

[LauraGiles]

To make an additional point about the whole Willow versus Faith redemption for murder dealy. I think it's important to bare in mind as i've said on another thread about Faith. Faith is completely different from regular humans. She's a slayer. The meaning is in the title. Death is what she is, all she knows. To quote that post outta laziness "They take life on a daily basis so obviously the lines are a bit blurred, value for life has to be diminished somewhat to justify regular slayage." Willow has no such excuse. (Although of course i admit she has her own set of justifiable ones i.e. Tara.) ]

Yeah i totally agree. Faith is completely different from Willow because she's a slayer. She has completely different circumstances because she has to kill things on a daily basis.

I think people forgave Willow far too easily with the whole Warren thing. I mean she skins him alive and tries to destroy the world, and she is just sent to a retreat and its like all is forgiven.

You can't mention Faith without considering the concept of redemption. But with Willow, the two words are rarely in the same sentence. It's a huge double standard.

Everything is forgiven instantly with Willow e.g. when Buffy came back from L.A having just killed Angel, Willow was very harsh on her (in Dead Man's Party). At least when Oz skips town Buffy is completely there for her in Season 4 despite Willlow having been so indifferent to Buffy's loneliness at the start of the Season.

Having said all that, I don't mean to be too harsh on Willow. She is one of my favourite characters and always has been. I just think it's a bit of a double standard like I say.

 

[Kana]

I'm just picking on this because it's the last post.

Yeah i totally agree. Faith is completely different from Willow because she's a slayer. She has completely different circumstances because she has to kill things on a daily basis.

I think all cases are slightly unique but it's decisions we make irrespective of circumstance that defines us, but in many cases it's never too late

I think people forgave Willow far too easily with the whole Warren thing. I mean she skins him alive and tries to destroy the world, and she is just sent to a retreat and its like all is forgiven.

I think it's not always set against an objective scale. Forgiveness is an act of compassion rather than deservedness. I think it's been said already but it makes perfect sense that Buffy would find it more difficult to forgive Faith than Willow as most of what Faith did was directed at Buffy and their relationship from day one was always more complicated. Compare a year and a bit of rivalry and jealousy with a few episodes of Willow being crazed with grief. Destroying the world out of grief was not a personal act against the gang or Buffy, but hurting one's friends, attempting to take someone's boyfriends, kidnapping someone's mother, it was a lot for Buffy to forget. Although I actually prefer Faith as a character, it makes total character sense for the gang to more forgiving of Willow. Also killing Warren wasn't the point. He was virtual sociopath anyway but it was about Willow using magic to control the world around her and that power eventually consuming her. They were more concerned about her soul than punishing her. Generally speaking Buffy is more about salvation than punishment.