Forgiving...

[Sunnydale Siren]

Such a terrible scene at the end, Angel went ballistic.


While I can understand how Wesley felt he was protecting Conner, totally get why Angel was so enraged.

The way he spewed those words at Wesley gave me chills.

 

[charmingslayer]

The scene at the end was amazing and sad. I feel so much anger towards Wes and also sympathy but towards the later episodes with him being mad at Angel made me really not like him much cause why is he mad? yeah sure he was almost sufficated because of Angel but can you really blame Angel?

 

[Revolver]

This doesn't really make me angry at Wes at all, and I wouldn't say it's true that he's particularly angry with Angel after this. I'd say he's more angry with the rest of the group though that's as much as I'm going to say on the subject since Sunnydale Siren is just watching these for the first time. I love this storyline though. All of them kind of act in the wrong here, but you can completely understand the different viewpoints, even if you aren't completely on board with them.

 

[Eleftheria]

Great episode...but really sad!this episode is with Angel trying to suffocate Wes with the pillow right?This episode is one of the main reasons i believe Boreanaz proved his talent...the words Angel said in the hospital...and the anger...really everything Angel did was understandable,it shows how much he loved his son.Really tragic episode!

 

[Oriphiel]

It needed to happen. I think angel did it to show him that it wasn't some fun little game. Lifes were at stake, and since Angel can't die, Connor was the closest thing he had to a life. When Wesley tried to kidnap Connor, he came as close as he ever had to killing what little life Angel had left. So Angel showed him what it was like to lose that life. To lose everything you've got. And to Wesley, his friends were all he had.

....Plus, Wesley gets a nifty wheelchair and a shotgun =)

 

[Fredsicle]

Angel trying to kill Wesley made me want to cry. It was a huge event in the story, and it goes to show how quickly he jumps to conclusions and follows instincts.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

I wasn't angry at Wesley. He was doing what he thought was best, to protect connor. He absolutely should have talked to the others about it, but I can kind of understand why he didn't. He was wrong-if he'd been right, they'd all have thanked him for saving Connor. He got tricked. I thought the way they all abandoned him was pretty awful. I get it with Angel but I would've expected the others to at least give him a chance to explain why he did what he did.

 

[saturn5]

FORGIVING

The Good;
Some great acting from Amy Acker as Fred is horrified that Connor has been lost to a portal, just as she was. The little girl in the White Room is a really creepy little moppet.

The Bad;
Gunn and the orderlies seem to overpower Angel at the hospital very easily (although I guess that settles the whole question of Angelus' confrontation with Xander in 'Killed by death'. Thinking back on the cops/security guards in that scene would probably have had tasers which is weapon that seems to affect vamps a lot. Although bullets are no joke to them either)

Best line:
Angel; (heartbroken) "Cordy will be back soon, with presents for Connor"

Jeez, how did they get away with that?
Lilah cutting her hand just like Darla, the whole 'women cope better with pain' idea certainly gets a lot of mileage in Joss's shows. Angel meanwhile prepares to stick a needle in Linwood's eye. Angel attempts to smother Wes and is quite prepared to kill Lilah to get his son back. Justine is beaten to a pulp, so much so that even Gunn feels sorry for her. Fred using the hot coals against Sahjhan is pretty damn ruthless.

Apocalypses: 5

Angel Cliches

Inverting the Hollywood cliche; we think Angel will forgive Wes after he's so compassionate to the poor guy at the accident but oh boy he doesn't! Sahjahn mocks the standard Hollywood buddy-cop thriller. AI are getting hammered by Sahjahn but get saved by Justine?

In disguise; 8

DB get's his shirt off; 12

Cordy's tatt;

Cheap Angel; 9

Fang Gang in bondage:
Cordy: 5
Angel: 11
Wes: 6
Gunn; 4
Lorne; 3
Fred; 2

Fang gang knocked out:
Cordy: 11
Angel: 14
Wes: 5
Doyle; 1
Gunn; 1
Lorne; 4

Kills:
Cordy: 5 vamps, 3½ demons
Angel; 39 vamps, 57 and 1/2 demons, 7 humans
Doyle; 1 vamp
Wes; 12 demons+3 vamps, 2 humans
Kate; 3 vamps
Faith; 16 vamps, 6 demons, 3 humans.
Gunn; 10 vamps+ 10 demons.
Groo; 1 demon
Fred; 1 vamp
Fang Gang go evil:
Cordy: 2
Angel: 2
Gunn; 1
Wes; 1

Alternate Fang Gang:
Cordy: 2
Angel: 8

Characters killed:
46

Recurring characters killed;
8;

Total number of Angel Investigations:
7, Angel, Cordy, Wes, Gunn, Fred, Lorne and Groo

Angel Investigations shot:
Angel: 11
Wes; 1

Packing heat; Gunn refers to the shotgun Wes keeps that we saw in Epiphany
Wes; 6
Doyle; 1
Angel; 2
Gunn; 1

Notches on Fang Gang bedpost:
Cordy: 4 ?+Wilson/Hacksaw Beast+Phantom Dennis+Groo
Angel: 5; Buffy, Darla and The Transcending Furies
Wes; 2; Virginia and the bleached blonde
Gunn; 1 Fred
Fred; 1 Gunn
Groo; 1Cordy

Kinky dinky:
Angel tell Justine he isn't her boyfriend and she should find someone else to smack her around.

Captain Subtext;
Sahjhan once again demonstrates his insecurity about his masculinity, insisting he flitted in a 'manly way'

Know the face, different character; 4

Parking garages;
5,

Guantanamo Bay;
Linwood get's kidnapped and threatened with torture

Buffy characters on Angel; 16
Wetherby, Collins and Smith. Angel, Cordy, Oz, Spike, Buffy, Wes, Faith, Darla, Dru, The Master, Anne, Willow and Harmony

Questions and observations;
Shouldn't Linwood know who Lorne is? Surely Lorne's concern for humans and disregard for 'slimy demons' is hypocritical. Like any good Watcher Wes keeps comprehensive diaries. Why do people always cut the palm of their hands in films? Surely that's one of the most sensitive parts?
Marks out of 10; 8/10 here comes the emotional pain but it's SUPREMELY well done.

 

[GrrArghx]

I feel so sorry for Wesley. Gunn took Fred away and everyone abandoned him. I understand where Angel is coming from though. I wasn't mad at either of them, although Angel trying to kill Wes was disturbing.

 

[Angel vs Spike]

I think Wesley was the victim here...

He didn't visit Holtz because he trusted him more, he just wanted to know what his intentions with the baby were so that he may act first. And he did, but unfortunately got caught...

Furthermore, after all he had done for the gang he surely should have been given the time to explain himself... I mean, he took a bullet for Gan (and almost got killed), and when Angel went amok with the whole Darla thing in Season 2 he forgives him and takes him back...

Angel trying to kill him wasn't right at all (although the loss of ones child can make a man go crazy no doubt).

 

[King of Hell]

I think Wesley was the victim here...

He didn't visit Holtz because he trusted him more, he just wanted to know what his intentions with the baby were so that he may act first. And he did, but unfortunately got caught...

Furthermore, after all he had done for the gang he surely should have been given the time to explain himself... I mean, he took a bullet for Gan (and almost got killed), and when Angel went amok with the whole Darla thing in Season 2 he forgives him and takes him back...

Angel trying to kill him wasn't right at all (although the loss of ones child can make a man go crazy no doubt).

i think everybody would do the same if they were in angel's shoes, wesley didn't see right to trust the gang about the only thing that made angel feel alive, even if he was fooled, it doesn't justify what he did, season 4 & 5 would be a lot different if wesley acted differently, he facilitated connor's miserable life, angel's miserable life, & probably jasmine's plan...

 

[Marisa]

When I first saw this episode I was just like wow. I was shocked it was an amazing scene so intense. I feel bad for Wes but don't think Angel was wrong in his actions because of the situation this was his only child. Should he have maybe talked to Wes yes probably but I think he just went a little over the edge at that moment.

 

[dan k]

Its a situation where i can totally understand each person's actions. Wesley did what he thought was best to protect Connor, Angel's mortified he stole his son. However i still think that Angel should have seen it from Wesley's point of view sooner than he did. After all Wesley only did what he did because he thought Connor was in danger, Angel should have thought to himself that in Wesley's position he would have done the same thing. I don't think you can debate that.

 

[Old Master 3.0]

Everyone seems to be forgetting Angel's mounting urge to eat his own son. That's what confuses me...everyone siding with Angel on this. Wes did it to save the friggin' kid.

 

[Buffy Summers]

I agree with you OM - once everything came out about the WHY Wesley did it, I don't really see why he isn't instantly forgiven.

 

[white avenger]

I get jumped on every time that I say it, but that closing scene gust serves to illustrate perfectly that Angel, who never seems to hesitate to make decisions affecting other people's lives without ever bothering to get any input from them, can dish it out a whole lot better than he can take it.

On a different note, how were two ordinary hospital orderlies (or were there three?) able to drag an enraged super humanly strong vampire off of Wes before Angel could have twisted his head off?"

 

[King of Hell]

he can't be instantly forgiving, if you live 250 years without having a mark in the world, & then you get a miracle son, something you never thought you could have, & then one of your best friends doesn't trust you enough to talk to you about the prophecy, & kidnaps the one thing that made you happy, the one thing that made you feel alive. ok don't trust Angel about it, but trust his friends about it. even if he didn't forgive Wesley its understandable, I think the one thing that made him forgive Wesley & not seek revenge was seeing how Holtz obsession in vengeance made him lose his soul & serve in the side of evil.

 

[Ruminator]

Everyone seems to be forgetting Angel's mounting urge to eat his own son. That's what confuses me...everyone siding with Angel on this. Wes did it to save the friggin' kid.

Oh did he now? Well, let's take a look at Wesley's bold plan to save baby Connor.

He met with, and took the advice of, Angel's sworn enemy. A man who had every reason to hate Angel and was completely untrustworthy. He blindly listened to ancient prophecies concerning Angel and Connor while never accounting for the fact that a time traveling demon might have changed them (and hey, those prophecies are NEVER wrong, huh?). He ignored the fact that clearly, someone was messing with Angel (the spiked blood) and instead listened to a giant hamburger. He consulted none of his friends or contemporaries about any of this, attacked one of them when they DID discover what he was up to (Lorne), kidnapped a helpless infant from right under his parents nose, a parent whom Wes had just earlier described as "noble and just" to Justine, then had the temerity to act like the aggrieved party about all of it cause no one listened to the side he didn't try to offer up till AFTER this daring plan had been enacted and the child was seemingly lost for all time.

That's some right proper planning there by Wes, poor guy. The only thing I find confusing, as a father of a 15 month old, is why Angel didn't just rip his throat out in the hospital. To paraphrase Fred, Wes robbed Angel of the only child he would ever have, you really think it is hard to side with Angel after that?

 

[King of Hell]

exactly, not to mention the fact that Wesley was indirectly responsible for every death the child caused & his terrible childhood, Angel's entrapment into the ocean, & possibly Jasmine's plan, if her plan was for the kid to get kidnapped & grow up quickly.

 

[NL197]

Thank you, Ruminator. You nailed it perfectly. Wesley clearly never learned from his mistakes with Faith, since he basically did the same thing with her when he had the Watcher's council goons tie up and beat Angel, while dragging Faith away in handcuffs, all without taking anything at all into consideration.

This second event bit him in the ass even worse than that first time, and rightfully so.