Forgiving...

[caitaintdead]

I'm going to have to side with Wesley here (okay, not a huge surprise, since I think the sun shines out his arse).

Wesley definitely wasn't entirely in the wrong here, W + H were putting Connors blood in Angels supply, and Angel was beginning to crave Connor's blood. The prophecy may have been faked, but how would any of them know that until after the fact.

People wonder why Wesley wouldn't discuss this with anyone. I don't see how this would change anything. If Cordelia knew about it wouldn't she just help Wesley get the baby away anyway?

If the prophecy turned out to be correct wouldn't Wesley have been seen as a hero? Besides, he definitely would have bought Connor up better then Holtz.

It's a good episode, but poor Wesley 🙁 Doing everything he can to try and do the right thing and still being shat on. I just wanna cuddle him.

 

[NL197]

Generally when they talk things through rather than conspire behind others' backs, bad things tend to happen less.

I think it's Wesley's biggest flaw - he doesn't truly trust anyone when in a bind, and this plus the Faith incident are two hard examples of that. It all comes down to trust with these people, and Wesley simply didn't. Betrayal cuts very deep, as he found out both figuratively with Angel going after him and Fred warning him to stay away, plus her own sense of betrayal expressed, and literally with Justine slitting his throat.

 

[Kana]

Really, the person Wesley should have talked to was Lorne. This would have given him a stablising influence and useful advice seen as he would have read whether he was likely to hurt Connor.

Lorne however is the one who understands. He argues that Wes did the best he could with the information he had. It's arguable that if Angel was going to hurt Connor, if he told anyone, it was more likely to get back to Angel himself and considering his increasingly odd behaviour, we can hardly blame Wes not for fully trusting him.

Angel's anger at Wes wasn't righteous anger but out of pure frustration. Wes did what he did to try and protect Connor but there were consequences. Angel did something similar. He did what he thought he had to and used dark magics which put everyone in danger.

He couldn't forgive Wes but deep down he couldn't forgive himself. Guilt, pain and frustration makes Angel do stupid things, hence trying to kill his friend, who was only trying to help him.

 

[NL197]

Well, instead of going to Lorne, he bashed him over the head.

He let his affection for Fred distance himself from her and Gunn, rather than focus on what was more critical. If Angel was behaving erratically, based on what was thought to be a prophecy, he more than certainly should have brought it all out into the open, but in his distrust of everyone, nearly forced it to come true. Of course ultimately it did come true over a year later.

With each post I'm finding it harder and harder to sympathize with him at all, because in the end, it all came down to betrayal. Wesley betrayed Angel, Fred, Gunn, viciously attacked Lorne, and got his comeuppance when Justine betrayed him. He was trying to do the right thing, but went about it the wrong way - the worst way he could of, which was on his own. He went rogue again, and he failed again.

Angel went rogue and a bunch of lawyers ended up vampire food, Gunn's neighborhood was nearly wiped out by zombie cops, Wesley was shot, and Cordelia nearly ended up another host to demon spawn. Wesley went rogue, and a baby was stolen and raised in a hell dimension, his own throat was cut, and he lost everyone around him.

It's a damn good thing these guys eventually learned that going it alone is the wrong choice in these situations. 🙂

 

[citiegal17]

exactly, not to mention the fact that Wesley was indirectly responsible for every death the child caused & his terrible childhood, Angel's entrapment into the ocean, & possibly Jasmine's plan, if her plan was for the kid to get kidnapped & grow up quickly.

Connor is responsible for what he did, not Wesley. Connor made his own choices, so don't blame it on Wesley. People make their own choices, and just because he bad childhood doesn't excuse any of the evil and heinous things Connor choose to do. Wesley didn't hand Connor over to Justine, Justine slit his throat and handed him to Holtz, so blame Holtz for Connor's bad childhood. People in Buffyverse having badchildhoods is about as normal as it gets, and Connor's not even unique in that area. He always knew right from wrong he just didn't care he wanted Jasmine's lie, Holtz's family was murdered by Angelus so Holtz would have been against the murder of an innocent, considering his family were murdered, which isn't consistant with Holtz being responsible for Connor's bad deeds. Also for a great deal of time Connor adjusted well when he first arrived he helped a girl who was a drug addict which is inconsistent on his bad childhood giving him no moral compass, he's got no excuse for what he did, and Wesley can't be held responsible for Connor's bad choices.

 

[GrrArghx]

I get Wesley's point of view, though. The prophecy clearly stated Angel would kill Connor no matter what. Wes telling someone obviously wouldn't have made a difference then (if the prophecy was real) so I can see why he didn't do it.

It's one of the reasons I love this episode. As a monstrous Wesley fan, I feel so bad for him, but Angel being one-half of my two favorite characters in the entirety of the Buffyverse, I feel bad for him as well.

 

[Marisa]

I get Wesley's point of view, though. The prophecy clearly stated Angel would kill Connor no matter what. Wes telling someone obviously wouldn't have made a difference then (if the prophecy was real) so I can see why he didn't do it.

It's one of the reasons I love this episode. As a monstrous Wesley fan, I feel so bad for him, but Angel being one-half of my two favorite characters in the entirety of the Buffyverse, I feel bad for him as well.

That is the problem with me. I just feel for Wesley because I love him so much. So I know it is wrong what he did but there were circumstances. I just feel for Angel too. If you really sit and think about it from Wesley's point of view he did the right thing. If you think about it from Angel's he didn't. What a dilemma.

 

[Kana]

Well, instead of going to Lorne, he bashed him over the head.

He let his affection for Fred distance himself from her and Gunn, rather than focus on what was more critical. If Angel was behaving erratically, based on what was thought to be a prophecy, he more than certainly should have brought it all out into the open, but in his distrust of everyone, nearly forced it to come true. Of course ultimately it did come true over a year later.

With each post I'm finding it harder and harder to sympathize with him at all, because in the end, it all came down to betrayal. Wesley betrayed Angel, Fred, Gunn, viciously attacked Lorne, and got his comeuppance when Justine betrayed him. He was trying to do the right thing, but went about it the wrong way - the worst way he could of, which was on his own. He went rogue again, and he failed again.

Angel went rogue and a bunch of lawyers ended up vampire food, Gunn's neighborhood was nearly wiped out by zombie cops, Wesley was shot, and Cordelia nearly ended up another host to demon spawn. Wesley went rogue, and a baby was stolen and raised in a hell dimension, his own throat was cut, and he lost everyone around him.

It's a damn good thing these guys eventually learned that going it alone is the wrong choice in these situations. 🙂

I think we agree that Wes did the wrong thing, but I think he did it for the right reasons and he never got a chance to explain what happened from his perspective. He was trying to protect Angel and Connor and was afraid that if he told everyone or anyone, if it got back to Angel, he wouldn't be able to protect either of them.

I agree, his self imposed isolation actually led to his abandonment but he had reasons for doing what he did, which is why I don't agree with what Angel did (Fred agrees). It's not suprising that he was left in a bitter place when his friends all turned their back when all he was trying to do was protect the people he cared about.

 

[NL197]

You know all this thread is doing is making me more and more excited to revisit this season, which won't be for a while because I'm in early season 2 right now.

 

[TaylorSwift]

I don't think we can blame Wes for anything, he was trying to do what's right.Of course Angel got crazy and while that's understandable, I find the scene at the end of the episode incredibly creepy...I wasn't expecting that. Oh, Angel...

 

[brinkster130]

I liked the final scene with Angel yelling and threatening Wes. Angel just lost his son and is beginning to realize that he may never get him back. If Wes hadn't taken Connor that night maybe Angel would have been able to raise his son. Wes believed the worst in Angel when he believed the prophesy. If Angel wasn't this upset it would be unsettling. Forgiveness takes time.

 

[VisionGirl]

Does anybody else want to slap the White Room girl? She's soo annoying! That's Kay Panabaker, who plays Julie Benz's daughter in No Ordinary Family.

Notice in the final scene when Angel is yelling at Wesley, he calls him Price. I don't think he has ever done that before.

 

[Brandonxx93]

I do not feel bad that Angel tried to suffocate Wesley at the end of this episode. Angel had every right in the world to do that. I mean come on. He KIDNAPPED his son. It does not get any lower than that. Wesley could have found another way to handle the situation just by telling someone.

 

[Litheran]

Wesley's best trait is also his biggest flaw. He is a black and white guy living in a very gray world. He has been brought up to believe in prophecies and I believe this one particularly was heralded as never being wrong. (Much like the one that stated Buffy's death at the hands of the Master.) Story wise I liked how this forced Wes to become the leather clad bad ass he was trying to be in season one. "I'll take away your bucket."

I understand his motivations; but by this point he, Angel and Cordelia are the core members of the fang gang. They've been through things only the core scoobies could possibly understand. I personally believe that Wes should have trusted in that friendship and his friends more importantly. Look at it this way; if he hadn't and Ats was still on the air; we'd have episodes dealing with Connor realizing his third grade teacher is a soul sucking demon. I know Joss goes for the drama; but how cool would it be to have Angel come in for show and tell?

So I get why Wesley did what he did; but I can't approve of how, or the outcome that followed.

P.S. Angel and Wesley's interaction after Wes pulled him out of the ocean are some of the best acted scenes in the whole series.

 

[SlayerFest]

I think Wesley was the victim here...

He didn't visit Holtz because he trusted him more, he just wanted to know what his intentions with the baby were so that he may act first. And he did, but unfortunately got caught...

Furthermore, after all he had done for the gang he surely should have been given the time to explain himself... I mean, he took a bullet for Gan (and almost got killed), and when Angel went amok with the whole Darla thing in Season 2 he forgives him and takes him back...

Angel trying to kill him wasn't right at all (although the loss of ones child can make a man go crazy no doubt).

He took Angel's child. That doesn't compare to Angel abandoning them...not even a little bit. If my friend took my little sister to the hospital without calling me first, I would be pretty ticked off. I can't even imagine if she went behind my back (implying that she doesn't trust me at all) and kidnapped my kid...and then gets my kid re-kidnapped/sucked into a hell dimension. I understand why Wesley felt the need to do what he did, but he absolutely should have told someone what was going on.

Also, he never apologized to Angel. It was really as if he expected some sort of apology from Angel...but truly, he brought it on himself. I did feel sorry for him, and the way that he reacted was normal/realistic, but Angel's actions were completely understandable. Obviously what he did wasn't right...but I probably would have reacted the same way.