Buffyverse Fan
* The 28th *
Any chance that Fray's Scorpion & Blob (and maybe even Urkonn) are/were the Wolf, Ram, and Hart or The Powers That Be?
Fray's Urkonn, Scorpion & Blob
- Thread starter Buffyverse Fan
- Start date
AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
Actually I think they (WR&H) have the very first lines of dialog in "Fray," starting on Page One.
white avenger
And that would make Urkon an agent of the Senior Partners like eve and Hamilton.
Buffyverse Fan
* The 28th *
The first 3 pages of dialog have only the blob & scorpion thing speaking, so you think that they're WR&H?
AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
Eh, probably not now that I think about it. More likely they're just the ones who occupy a similar position in the future. If they were W&H there'd be three of them (I don't see Urkonn as being their equal), and we most likely wouldn't see them. (But if we do get to see the Senior Partners in upcoming issues of the Angel comics... compare and contrast.)
It's more likely that W&H were/will be destroyed during the big showdown when Buffy and Angel drive the demons out of our reality.
Totally random and pointless post here but reading that line instantly had Angel's line in 'Welcome To The Hellmouth' in my head.
'To kill em, to kill them all'
In fullfilling that (which I think we are agreed on, he and Buffy seem destined to do) he gets his Shanshu.
That seems far to nice and tidy for my liking.
I don't know if we are ahead of ourselves with all of this talk of the comics coming together. It seems too good to be true.
Buffyverse Fan
* The 28th *
Well Angel did say:
[quote="Welcome to the Hellmouth" (B01x01)]
Buffy: What do you want?
Angel: The same thing you do.
Buffy: (lets down her guard) Okay. What do I want?
Angel: (steps toward her) To kill them. To kill them all.[/quote]
there's also this:
[quote="Reprise" (A02x15)]
Angel: "Will it get me back to the home office or where ever it came from?"
Denver: "Might... if you're insane! - You realize what this home office probably is?"
Angel: "I think I have a pretty good idea."
Denver: "Hell! Why the heck do you wanna go to hell? (Angel doesn't answer) You're gonna try and go down there and destroy the whole lot of them, aren't you? Well, that'd certainly make up for the time that... (Angel looks up at him and Denver trails off) Still, not a terrific idea. It's suicide, really."
Angel: "Look, will the ring get me there or not?" [/quote]
but after Angel found out that the source of evil that fuels Wolfram & Hart is the evil that resides within the humans on Earth, he stopped believing that he could kill them all. His mission changed when he had his epiphany in "Epiphany":
[quote="Epiphany" (A02x16)]
Angel: "In the greater scheme or the big picture, nothing we do matters. There's no grand plan, no big win."
Kate: "You seem kind of chipper about that."
Angel: "Well, I guess I kinda - worked it out. If there is no great glorious end to all this, if - nothing we do matters, - then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. - I fought for so long. For redemption, for a reward - finally just to beat the other guy, but... I never got it."
Kate: "And now you do?"
Angel: "Not all of it. All I wanna do is help. I wanna help because - I don't think people should suffer, as they do. Because, if there is no bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness - is the greatest thing in the world."[/quote]
he reaffirmed that just before leading his team into the battle they're still participating in:
[quote="Power Play" (A05x21)]
ANGEL
We are weak. The powerful control everything... except our will to choose. Look, Lindsey's a pathetic halfwit, but he was right about one thing. Heroes don't accept the way the world is. The senior partners may be eternal, but we can make their existence painful. (...)
Power endures. We can't bring down the senior partners, but for one bright, shining moment, we can show them that they don't own us.[/quote]
[quote="Not Fade Away" (A05x22)]
ANGEL
'Cause it's not about us, Lindsey. It's about them. The wolf. The ram. The hart. The ones we've been fighting against forever.
LINDSEY
You can't beat 'em.
ANGEL
Maybe they're not there to be beat. Maybe they're there to be fought. Maybe fighting them is what makes human beings so remarkably strong. [/quote]
Buffy & Angel don't beat evil, they may or may not beat the Senior Partners, but evil will continue. They'll definitely banish the bulk of the powerful demons and magicks. But unless Fray's time line is retconned, Buffy & Angel don't have a happy ending. Even if Buffy gets out of Hell and Angel Shanshus and the two grow old together and have children it's not a happy ending since they both kinda failed in the long run.
By Fray's time, the Earth seems worse than it was before Buffy & Angel banished the big bads. Buffy's Watcher's Council was a huge failure. She lost all three of her best friend's lovers in the battle against evil, and her most trusted friend becomes the biggest of the bads. And Angel has already seen four of his lieutenants and closest friends lose their lives while fighting in his mission.
A short victory, but nothing resembling a happy ending. And since Buffy knows that the future she's partly responsible for sucks; and, since Angel knows that his best friends gave their lives for his mission, and that even if he saves a billion people it'll never make up for any of the lives he's taken, the two will never truly be at peace.
I'm still not really sure where I am going with this, mostly I think I am thinking out loud. Buffy and Angel have basically fought the same war for the last number of years. The realisation that he cannot destroy the Senior Partners is pretty much the same realisation that Buffy faced with The First. She can banish it for a time but she can never beat it.
The more I think about their journeys both togther and seperately I can't help but feel they are making their back to each other (not necessarily in a romantic sense) but their stories seem interwoven. Persoanlly I love that concept, infact it makes me giddy with geeker joy. I have to wonder though, will it really happen.
Buffy and Angel both have knowledge of the future and the consequences their actions have. With this in mind I don't think we are going to get the same 'Kill em all' apocolypse that Fray was told about. Buffy doesn't want that to happen and the girl's track record with prophecies and defying the odds is pretty impressive.
Another question is, if Joss does decide that Buffy changes the future, for the better this time, what does that mean for Fray and her world?
AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
Buffy and Angel have both decided before that there were victories they just couldn't win, and then went ahead and won them anyway.
They can't defeat evil itself, of course. Evil exists as long as sentience and free will exist.
But the Senior Partners are just really powerful demons. They are not the Holy Trinity. They're not even gods. Maybe they can't be literally killed, but they can be rendered powerless or irrelevant, like Glory and the First Evil.
A story in which the heroes can't ever defeat the villains is a lousy story indeed. They can, and they will.
The timeline as regards Fray must be changeable in some respect. That's presumably the point of what Willow was doing.
There's no such thing as a true happy ending in the Jossverse under the best of circumstances, but even happy endings aren't really endings. Things keep on happening, and "happily right now" never translates into "happily ever after."
They can't defeat evil itself, of course. Evil exists as long as sentience and free will exist.
But the Senior Partners are just really powerful demons. They are not the Holy Trinity. They're not even gods. Maybe they can't be literally killed, but they can be rendered powerless or irrelevant, like Glory and the First Evil.
A story in which the heroes can't ever defeat the villains is a lousy story indeed. They can, and they will.
The timeline as regards Fray must be changeable in some respect. That's presumably the point of what Willow was doing.
There's no such thing as a true happy ending in the Jossverse under the best of circumstances, but even happy endings aren't really endings. Things keep on happening, and "happily right now" never translates into "happily ever after."
If I'm honest I don't want a 'Happily ever after' it cheapens the story and it isn't in line with the shows we have watched for alomst 11 years. And really I don't think we are going to get a white picket fence for anyone in this verse, it just doesn't fit.
I'm just curious about how all this is going to go down or if we have created a whole scneario that will never happen. Repeatedly in the fan letters any suggestions of a crossover between comics or the use of characters from Angel in Buffy is swiftly and firmly shot down. Now this could all be part of maintaining the integrity of the story and not giving anything away but it makes me second guess the theory of the shows comics coming together.
AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
Nah, "Happily ever after" is just a nice way of saying "the story I was telling is finished, you don't need to concern yourself with what happened next."
(Of course, always having an unhappy ending is just as unrealistic as always having a happy one. Sometimes, things work out. I'd love to see a Joss story where, to quote the Ninth Doctor, "this time, everybody lives.")
Both comics are confirmed canonical, so sooner or later their stories will have to intersect. If Angel is famous now, then there's no excuse for him never to be talked about or referred to by Buffy and the Scoobies. It's also pretty impossible to believe she doesn't know Spike is alive, either, at this point.
We also know that, despite the best efforts of her (grrr) friends, Buffy does not hate Angel, nor is she terribly angry with him. She still has sexual fantasies about him (and Spike), and when she sees him in "After These Messages" she doesn't show any anger. She shows sadness, but whether that's just because she's missed him or because she knows something bad happened to him, we don't discover.
Angel and Spike's current status hasn't been referenced in season 8 yet because Joss didn't want to give away the outcome of AtF. Now there's no excuse anymore... unless something big happens in #17 or in the "Aftermath" comics, it's time to address the Buffy/Angel/Spike situation.
Kean
I love how you have answers for all my frenzied comic woes! lol
white avenger
white avenger
Essentially nothing. If Buffy's foreknowledge of the future in some way allows her to change the outcome of the battle (would she really want to? She succeeded in banishing all supernatural forces from the world , at least for a few centuries) it will just mean that there will be a divergence in the time line, creating two separate but tangible future worlds, one where Fray is exactly as we know her, and another where things are in some way, hopefully better, different.
As an example, consider the Wishverse. That entire reality was created (by Cordelia's wish, of course) when Buffy moved to the Cleveland hellmouth rather than the Sunnydale one. That allowed the Master, unopposed, to rise to power. In that case, however, the results wasn't as much a full scale divergence as much as a short term "ripple," allowing a momentary time parallel that re-converged with "normal" time when Anya's amulet was destroyed.
In the case of the impending super-apocalypse, the divergence is so powerful that it creates two entirely separate universes.
In other words, consider reality to be a river. A relatively minor event like which hellmouth Buffy goes to is an island in the center of that river, causing the river to separate momentarily, but rejoin once that island is passed. Buffy's super-apocalypse is an an actual fork, forming two complete streams that will most likely never rejoin.
Buffyverse Fan
* The 28th *
At least Willow & Andrew like them both and Dawn likes Spike 🙂
No question. It seems like a lot of people forget that these two comics are taking place in the same Universe.
As for the Super Apocalypse Crossover, it's true, but that will most likely be the end. There might be a handful of issues concluding the stories, but not much is going to happen after that. Angel will Shanshu and Buffy will somehow get out of Hell (unless Faith is the one that chases the last demons into it). And it's implied that Spike makes it into Fray's time line still as a Vampire Champion. Willow will possibly be evil, and Joss said he would only kill off Xander if his friends had sufficient time to mourn him, so if Xander were to die, he'd die before the Super Apocalypse was won. I'd imagine Dawn & Connor will survive since they're death would devastate Buffy & Angel respectively. And making such a big deal about Gunn's fate now, I don't see Joss killing him again.
I also suspect that Andrew will wind up running the Watcher's Council to explain how it descended into a sect of fanatics who set themselves on fire at the sight of a Slayer.
The Fray's Universe is an AU though, with Fray stuck in the crappy one thing seems more Superhero Comics/SciFi than Joss, but it's possible.
Lou
Scooby
LMAO! For some reason, what I read was "Fray's Urkonn and SpongeBob"
I was EXTREMELY confused as to what this thread was about.
Now, that I've broadcasted my stupid for the day, carry on.....
I was EXTREMELY confused as to what this thread was about.
Now, that I've broadcasted my stupid for the day, carry on.....
AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
Where are you getting your info re:
A. That the demons will have to be physically chased into Hell to banish them, and
B. That Spike will have something to do with Fray.
Sometimes I think there's too much to keep track of here. I need to get W&H to set me up with a photographic memory.
I don't know for sure, but I don't think becoming evil is what JW has in mind for Willow's ultimate fate. I think part of Buffy's task will be to move Heaven and Hell to make sure her friend doesn't end up condemned to the existence she saw in ToYL.
We know this is all going to wind up with the temporary end of the Slayers. My question is whether all the Slayers will die in the end (except maybe Buffy and/or Faith), or whether they'll only be de-powered, or whether they'll just die off naturally between now and Fray's time.
I didn't mean that Buffy wouldn't stop the apocolypse. I suppose what I was getting at was that clearly there were some choices made that left indelible marks on Buffy's world and helped create Fray's. Most notibly is Willow. Buffy has been getting hints and signs that all is not what it seems with her friends. Her seperation from Giles, the animosity that seems to have swelled between her and Dawn and Willow's plunge into the dark arts again seems to back that up. To me, this is now a situation that Buffy has been shown explicitly can no longer be ignored. I'm just wondering if Buffy tries to mend tha bridges between her and her family, and assuming that she didn't in Fray's timeline, will that make a difference to Fray's world?
I know there is very little sense in what I just wrote lol
Buffyverse Fan
* The 28th *
Well according to Urkon, between Buffy & Fray, girls continue to be endowed with the Slayer powers, but no one is trained or "Called" into the battle until Fray.
With A.), well it's issue #3 of Fray, but now that you have me thinking about it, it's left ambiguous. It just shows the portal closing on the final Slayer and a tentacle pulling her away. (David Fury said that when Joss wrote that bit, he considered the Slayer in question to be Buffy). But for all we know the tentacle could be from an ally of hers that's pulling her out of Hell before the portal closes, rather than a baddy pulling her in.
With B.) that's an ambiguous one too. It's a time slip in After the Fall which shows Spike in Hadyn (the future NY in Fray's time) holding the Slayer Scythe.
Personally, I'd like Spike to survive into Fray's time. Spike isn't Angel, I don't think he even wants to be human.
AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
I really need to re-read "Fray." I assume that during all that time it's back to one Slayer at a time?
Joss may have changed his thinking on that point now that he's decided to continue the story officially, though. Casually giving away the ultimate ending to your 12+ year magnum opus sounds like it would be kind of... stupid?
A meeting between Mel and Spike would kind of rock... if Joss would be willing to commit himself to the idea that he survives another 200 years. Maybe he could be the one who shows Mel how to fix her broken Scythe? Maybe he's Gates the monkey?
Buffyverse Fan
* The 28th *
I'd actually like Gates to be Andrew, since he's pretty much the only one that might be okay with being an alien monkey, lol.
Well they pretty much said that the Slayer line is one at a time when Fray was called (since some of them wanted to kill her so there could be a "full" slayer rather than half of one like her). But all Urkon said was that girls have had the power between the 21st Century & Fray, doesn't say one at a time or multiple. All this stuff is in issue #3 if you don't want to reread all of it 😉
Well they pretty much said that the Slayer line is one at a time when Fray was called (since some of them wanted to kill her so there could be a "full" slayer rather than half of one like her). But all Urkon said was that girls have had the power between the 21st Century & Fray, doesn't say one at a time or multiple. All this stuff is in issue #3 if you don't want to reread all of it 😉
AndrewCrossett
Satsu Otaku
I re-read that part. Yes, it's clear that's Buffy fighting the demons in the final battle. (Who else would wear a miniskirt to an apocalypse?)
So we know Buffy wins in the end. I guess that's not really a big reveal. After all this time what was she going to do, lose? And it's no surprise that it's Buffy... it's not like Joss was suddenly going to say "And Buffy lived happily ever after, and the final victory was won by Britney the Vampire Slayer, who came after Buffy and actually got the job done. The end."
Still, I'd prefer not to have seen the end until the end.
That horde of demons she was fighting looked suspiciously like the one W&H sent against Angel in "Not Fade Away." Same demon types, same apparent method of attack... little demons in front, big fiery balrog-types in the back. Which suggests to me that W&H are the final Big Bad Buffy will fight.
I wonder if that's Illyria with the tentacle pulling her out of Hell there.
So we know Buffy wins in the end. I guess that's not really a big reveal. After all this time what was she going to do, lose? And it's no surprise that it's Buffy... it's not like Joss was suddenly going to say "And Buffy lived happily ever after, and the final victory was won by Britney the Vampire Slayer, who came after Buffy and actually got the job done. The end."
Still, I'd prefer not to have seen the end until the end.
That horde of demons she was fighting looked suspiciously like the one W&H sent against Angel in "Not Fade Away." Same demon types, same apparent method of attack... little demons in front, big fiery balrog-types in the back. Which suggests to me that W&H are the final Big Bad Buffy will fight.
I wonder if that's Illyria with the tentacle pulling her out of Hell there.
Buffyverse Fan
* The 28th *
Good thought. The only existing allies I could think of was Andrew summoning some creature to pull her out or Clem, but Illyria makes more sense.