Fred or Lilah?
- Thread starter nerd4hire
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JollyApe
None for you!
Really didn't like Fred and Wes together. Fred was to fragile to be with Wes, she needed someone that could take care of her like Gunn did. Ok I'm not saying Fred was helpless, but Wes darkness she was helpless to, because she didn't seem to see it was there. Or if she did, she just ignored it.
Lilah on the other hand had another type of strength that made her more of an equal to Wes. She understood his darkness to a greater extent which in a way linked the two of them even more.
Fred had an inner strenght, but was fragile on the outside. Lilah was the other way around and I don't think that Fred's type of person made a good match for Wes. So if I could have chosen I'd ended the series with Lilah and Wes.
Lilah on the other hand had another type of strength that made her more of an equal to Wes. She understood his darkness to a greater extent which in a way linked the two of them even more.
Fred had an inner strenght, but was fragile on the outside. Lilah was the other way around and I don't think that Fred's type of person made a good match for Wes. So if I could have chosen I'd ended the series with Lilah and Wes.
JollyApe
None for you!
Touché.
Ah, you might have a point there, but I don't think it was as much the taking care as the violence that killed their relationship. She couldn't be with Gunn after what he did, but she was willing to be with Wes even though what he had done? Doesn't make sense and I think that if she hadn't died her ship with Wes would've done so rather fast after the first inlove feelings had gone away. I mean it takes a couple of weeks, but soon the "You are my sunshine" would have gone away and she would have had to face his darkness.
Ah, you might have a point there, but I don't think it was as much the taking care as the violence that killed their relationship. She couldn't be with Gunn after what he did, but she was willing to be with Wes even though what he had done? Doesn't make sense and I think that if she hadn't died her ship with Wes would've done so rather fast after the first inlove feelings had gone away. I mean it takes a couple of weeks, but soon the "You are my sunshine" would have gone away and she would have had to face his darkness.
eponinethen
Majk
Hm, I kinda think that since Fred was so fragile (as you put it) she needs someone who can take care of her yet is really careful not to take care of her too much, to let her realize she can take care of herself. I'm not saying Gunn was being over-protective of her, but more so than Wesley...
Um, anyways, as much as I've started to really like Lilah, as a character, I don't want her with Wesley. Their relationship is interesting, definitely, but ever since Wes ans Fred first met in Pylea, I've wanted them together.. They are just the sweetest couple and I love how alike, yet different, they are. Ah, wonderful, heh..
Um, anyways, as much as I've started to really like Lilah, as a character, I don't want her with Wesley. Their relationship is interesting, definitely, but ever since Wes ans Fred first met in Pylea, I've wanted them together.. They are just the sweetest couple and I love how alike, yet different, they are. Ah, wonderful, heh..
LadyLavinia
Scooby
Fred was never a fragile character. She could be pretty strong (when she was not being used as a plot device). But she did have a tendency to harbor illusions about the people in her life. She always had a tendency to have an excuse for some of Wes' darker traits (see "Billy" and "Lineage"). The only time she didn't have an excuse, was during their conversation about Connor, Cordelia, and especially Lilah in "Players"; just as she could not find an excuse for Charles' actions in "Supersymmestry". Note that neither her nor Wes seemed able to come to any terms, following their conversation in "Players". Amy Acker once stated that Fred and Wes could become a happy couple, if Fred could come to terms with his affair with Lilah. But did we ever see that happen? Or did Wes avoid the subject of Lilah during the brief Wes/Fred relationship?
Besides, Fred did not bring out the best in Wes. Being around her, allowed him to wallow in his own illusions and use her as a means for his own happiness. Also, he had to pretend to be someone he was not. And her death, in the end, brought out some of his worst instincts. Why? Because he harbored illusions about her that were unrealistic . . . enabling him to believe he had every right to act as he did.
Although Lilah had originally intended to corrupt Wes, in the end she was able to love him unconditionally. He did not have to pretend to be someone he was not. And being around Lilah had allowed him to grow as a person . . . something that never happened when he was around Fred.
Besides, Fred did not bring out the best in Wes. Being around her, allowed him to wallow in his own illusions and use her as a means for his own happiness. Also, he had to pretend to be someone he was not. And her death, in the end, brought out some of his worst instincts. Why? Because he harbored illusions about her that were unrealistic . . . enabling him to believe he had every right to act as he did.
Although Lilah had originally intended to corrupt Wes, in the end she was able to love him unconditionally. He did not have to pretend to be someone he was not. And being around Lilah had allowed him to grow as a person . . . something that never happened when he was around Fred.
J
JollyApe
Ok I wish I could have said something smart like that. Agree to 100% with your comment.
nerd4hire
Certified Uncloneable
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On the other hand...who did Wes seem more contented with Lilah or Fred? Once the relationship began who made Wes happier?
As far as Lilah helping Wes to grow goes, I don't know. Were we watching the same show? I saw Wes getting more sullen, and more attracted to the dark side the more time he spent with Lilah. Does growing mean you have to be depressed?
Fred and Wes, shared a common moral standard they strove toward. The attraction they felt for each other was real. Their flaws and their strengths complimented each other. Fred's need for a hero, and Wesley's desire for good were illusions, but really what's wrong with illusion and hope, providing it can grow into a place that doesn't conflict with reality. It gives you something to work toward, and when 2 people are pointing in the same direction striving toward the same basic thing, what's wrong with that?
Wes and Fred's relationship showed every sign of growing towards that place where what you hope for, or strive toward, and what you can have meets in a workable spot.
As far as Lilah helping Wes to grow goes, I don't know. Were we watching the same show? I saw Wes getting more sullen, and more attracted to the dark side the more time he spent with Lilah. Does growing mean you have to be depressed?
Fred and Wes, shared a common moral standard they strove toward. The attraction they felt for each other was real. Their flaws and their strengths complimented each other. Fred's need for a hero, and Wesley's desire for good were illusions, but really what's wrong with illusion and hope, providing it can grow into a place that doesn't conflict with reality. It gives you something to work toward, and when 2 people are pointing in the same direction striving toward the same basic thing, what's wrong with that?
Wes and Fred's relationship showed every sign of growing towards that place where what you hope for, or strive toward, and what you can have meets in a workable spot.
N
Nessima
Guest
I think Wesley and Lilah were kind of....weird....together. I don't think Wesley could have ever loved Lilah. I just think she kind of fascinated him, drew him to her because she's evil and evil is always more tempting than good. But Fred drew Wesley to her from the very beginning with her sweetness and timidness...he just wanted to comfort her and protect her... it was more of a loving thing he had with her, more tender than with Lilah, who liked it hard and fast. And the devotion Wesley showed while and long after Illyria took over Fred's body was unforgettable....Wesley truly loved Fred. While when Lilah died....he chopped off her head (after an in depth conversation with his subconcious). There he recieved closure. When Fred died, he didn't recieve closure until he himself died and Fred (Illyria) was holding him in her arms. And the fact that Illyria had fallen in love with him (well, that's what I got from it) just..... it's like Fred is still in there, loving him through Illyria.
Okay I'm going to stop my ranting now. :hihi:
Okay I'm going to stop my ranting now. :hihi:
I loved Lilah and Wes but i dont think it could have lasted long. she was evil after all. After a while only a few things could happen. she'd go good, wes would go evil or she'd get wes killed.
so i voted for fred. he was happy with her and its who he wanted all along. its just a shame she died so soon. but then again fred was best with gunn and that ended, so it may not have worked out.
so i voted for fred. he was happy with her and its who he wanted all along. its just a shame she died so soon. but then again fred was best with gunn and that ended, so it may not have worked out.
eponinethen
Majk
Hm, are we discussing who Wesley was happier with or which relationship was more interesting in a TV show? Because to me Wes was obviously happier with Fred but the Wes/Lilah relationship in interesting and some what scary... that's why I like that one.. (Although, as I've already said, I do prefer Wes/Fred.)
nerd4hire
Certified Uncloneable
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Both would be fine, but basically I was most curious in which relationship deserved to be resolved in the final episode. Like which relationship did you most need to be resolved before you said goodbye to ATS. I guess it would be which relationship was more important to you personally?
eponinethen
Majk
Yeah okay, then definitely Fred. That's the only relationship (except Willow/Tara) that I've ever really liked on BtVS or AtS. Liked as in "they should really be together".. There are other very interesting relationships, TV show wise and character wise (such as Wes/Lilah)...
LadyLavinia
Scooby
eponinethen said:
Wes' happiness with Fred was based on his illusion of her. And the same with Fred. I believe that sooner or later, both would get a good look at each other and end the relationship. If Fred had not died, I would have given that relationship at least less than a year. One cannot maintain a romantic illusion that long.
But a lot of people liked this relationship . . . because they prefer idealized love.
Here's an interesting thread: http://www.livejournal.com/users/jennyo/276507.html
And a nice photo: http://www.imjustsayin.net/iconery/screencaps/lilahwes5.jpg
Feigenbaum
Going to have twins!
eponinethen
Majk
Yeah I don't think they would have been together for that long either, only because this is a TV show (which is of course also why Fred died). But I don't think there was any kind of illusion, actually. Maybe Wesley's obsession with Fred was a bit.. much.. but I think he understood better than anyone what and who she was, as she did with him.LadyLavinia said:
And yes, some people do prefer idealized love, I am not one of them though. And just like I said, I find the Lilah/Wes relationship more interesting, I like that relationship. But to me there's no doubt that Wesley would have been happier with Fred than with Lilah, and I just really like their relationship, their sweetness, their characters and so on.. It's not a boring idealized love.. in my opinion..
LadyLavinia
Scooby
nerd4hire said:
If you would like to believe that Nerd4hire, be my guest.
And please do not judge my opinions as nonsence, because you don't agree.
I think Wesley saw his darker self, his darker inclinations in Lilah. They were actually birds of a feather in some ways. Lilah completely gave into her dark side. Wesley managed to gain control, get over his nihilism, self-pity. I don't really know if he felt love for Lilah or not....I think maybe he did. He loved her, pitied her, other things....
He did in fact love Fred, that's clear. Whether it was warped, idealized, obsessive or not, it was love.
It was interesting, ironic. Lilah ended up pushing Wes towards goodness. Fred, towards obssessive, almost sociopathic behavior at times. Especially right after she died of course.
...but with Fred, Wes's freakish behavior was as much the circumstances as anything Fred said or did.
We never really saw what might have been in normal circumstances. Personally, I think Fred/Wesley could have worked in the "real world". If you share someone's basic values, ideals, that can be the firmest ground for a relationship. Maybe even more so than things like mutual interests. If a couple is a match in terms of temperments and values, you've got a good start....my 2 cents.
He did in fact love Fred, that's clear. Whether it was warped, idealized, obsessive or not, it was love.
It was interesting, ironic. Lilah ended up pushing Wes towards goodness. Fred, towards obssessive, almost sociopathic behavior at times. Especially right after she died of course.
...but with Fred, Wes's freakish behavior was as much the circumstances as anything Fred said or did.
We never really saw what might have been in normal circumstances. Personally, I think Fred/Wesley could have worked in the "real world". If you share someone's basic values, ideals, that can be the firmest ground for a relationship. Maybe even more so than things like mutual interests. If a couple is a match in terms of temperments and values, you've got a good start....my 2 cents.