Fred's soul

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

So, this last week I've been re-watching choice parts of AtS, and it got me thinking about Fred's soul, and then souls in general in the Buffy/Angelverse.

What happens to characters soul if say, the character dies? We've seen that it doesn't nessesarily "go away."
We've seen that the soul can be removed and replaced (Darla, Angel), lost (Angel) and, for lack of a better term, "re-found" (Spike). Buffy's physical body died, but her soul was clearly not destroyed, as she had it when she was brought back from the dead. Same with Spike.

So, on this trend, could it be possible that Fred's soul is still out there, "floating" around somewhere? Or do you think it's dormat in her body, and Illyria is supressing it? Or do you think her soul is gone? If Fred were brought back from the dead, and Illyria driven out, would Fred's soul return to her?

I think that Joss wants to say that a character is never, truly dead unless his/her soul is unretrievable...but what does that look like?

And going further, what do you think about how the soul is protrayed and explored in the 'verse?

 

[Kean]

I think the verse portrays the soul as the essence of a being's personhood, their consciousness and that it can exist on different planes e.g. Earth, Heaven and Hell.

Which is why I think Fred's story is so awful, because her soul is obliterated. It's gone. It's not existing on another plane, it plain doesn't exist any longer. Illyria can mimic the actions of Fred, or employ and manipulate her memories, but she cannot be Fred. For all intents and purposes, there is no more Fred, except what remains in the memories of those who love her. I think that is what troubled Illyria so much. To her Fred was absolutely nothing. A non-entity, and that is literally true, but seeing how something that no longer exists, lived on in others, threw her off terribly. I think Whedon said if S6 had happened, we would have seen more of that explored.

 

[Taaroko]

I refuse to believe that Fred's soul was destroyed. Moreover, I refuse to believe that it is even possible to destroy a human soul, even in a fictional universe. The only people in canon who said that Fred's soul was destroyed were villains, and just because Angel and the others took their word for it doesn't mean I have to.

 

[SlayerFest]

I think the verse portrays the soul as the essence of a being's personhood, their consciousness and that it can exist on different planes e.g. Earth, Heaven and Hell.

Which is why I think Fred's story is so awful, because her soul is obliterated. It's gone. It's not existing on another plane, it plain doesn't exist any longer. Illyria can mimic the actions of Fred, or employ and manipulate her memories, but she cannot be Fred. For all intents and purposes, there is no more Fred, except what remains in the memories of those who love her. I think that is what troubled Illyria so much. To her Fred was absolutely nothing. A non-entity, and that is literally true, but seeing how something that no longer exists, lived on in others, threw her off terribly. I think Whedon said if S6 had happened, we would have seen more of that explored.

So you basically said everything that I was thinking...but in a way that makes sense haha. I think that what happened to Fred's soul, is what truly happens to us when we die. We cease to exist. We don't go to heaven or hell, we don't float around or haunt people...we're just dead. Ugh I hate thinking about it. It's so disturbing. Poor Fred 🙁.

Poor everyone.

 

[white avenger]

Which is why I think Fred's story is so awful, because her soul is obliterated. It's gone. It's not existing on another plane, it plain doesn't exist any longer. Illyria can mimic the actions of Fred, or employ and manipulate her memories, but she cannot be Fred. For all intents and purposes, there is no more Fred, except what remains in the memories of those who love her. I think that is what troubled Illyria so much. To her Fred was absolutely nothing. A non-entity, and that is literally true, but seeing how something that no longer exists, lived on in others, threw her off terribly. I think Whedon said if S6 had happened, we would have seen more of that explored.

There might be hope for Fred, though. Joss has said on several occasions that, if there had been a televised Season 6, one of his plans was to split Illyria and Fred into two distinct characters, with Amy playing both parts. I seriously doubt that he would portray Fred as a soulless creature, so he must have had some plan for retrieving her soul. Maybe Angel or someone else could have somehow traveled back in time to the moments before Fred's death and somehow take her soul before it became destroyed. For that matter, maybe Illyria herself managed to somehow absorb Fred's soul at the moment of transformation.

However it is done, and even whether or not it is ever done, I refuse to accept the fact that the single immortal essence of everything that a person is, even in the Whedonverse, could ever be irretrievably destroyed. There is a limit beyond which even suspension of disbelief can go, and, for me, that limit stops shy of the idea that a soul can die or be destroyed. Sorry, Joss, but there's a point that I just won't go past, not for you, not for Buffy, and not for Fred.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Nice insights, everyone.

I'm inclined to agree with WA....I think Fred's soul could be retrieved, just as Angel's and Darla's were.

 

[Once more wNeNe]

I've cried many times while watching "A hole in the world". They do say her soul was consumed and that she could not be brought back. However in Whedon World you never know. And Fred is so cute and I love her so I say her soul is probably fine and drinking fruity iced beverages on the soul beach with her soul friends.

 

[VisionGirl]

I do agree with [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] that that is exactly what season 5 portrayed, so that even if one imagines that Wesley & Fred are happy at peace together somewhere, they're not. And that makes her death so incredibly MORE tragic. I do think that [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION] is right, that Joss & Angel would have tried to rectify that in a season 6. But I can't help think that he had the chance in ATF (& all the other IDW comics although I know he wasnt as directly involved) to do that, and didn't. Part of me wonders if we'll see that in Illyria's season 9 appearance, but with everything going on, I really don't think so.
[MENTION=10901]Taaroko[/MENTION], can you remind me which people specifically said that about Fred's soul? Knox is one I can think of. And yes, I agree with you that when a "bad guy" says something on Buffy/Angel, I don't always take it as complete truth since they definitely have their evil motives for wanting you to believe a certain way.

 

[Kean]

Nice insights, everyone.

I'm inclined to agree with WA....I think Fred's soul could be retrieved, just as Angel's and Darla's were.

I find it hard to conceive of someone just not existing any longer, at least in some form. But in this verse and in this instance, I think I actually believe what they said in the show: Fred is gone. There's nothing to be retrieved.

 

[Taaroko]

Taaroko, can you remind me which people specifically said that about Fred's soul? Knox is one I can think of. And yes, I agree with you that when a "bad guy" says something on Buffy/Angel, I don't always take it as complete truth since they definitely have their evil motives for wanting you to believe a certain way.

The only one besides Knox who said it was that doctor guy who gave Gunn his lawyer brain upgrade. Neither of them wanted the good guys interfering with Illyria, so they could easily have made the claim about Fred's soul being destroyed just to get the good guys to give up bringing her back without trying.

 

[white avenger]

. Part of me wonders if we'll see that in Illyria's season 9 appearance, but with everything going on, I really don't think so.

Now, if they really want to do something unique and totally unexpected, Angel could find some way of splitting Illyria and Fred, then putting Giles' soul in Fred's body. All of Giles' memories would be intact, but Fred would be there, too, something like Robert Heinlein's "I Will Fear No Evil," though that was a brain transplant rather than a soul transplant. If they handled it in any way similarly to what Heinlein did, as in completely serious, no comedy element, it could result in a really good story arc, as well as creating a truly unique character.

(Yeah, I know, you all think that I'm either high, crazy, or both. Just go and read the book before you pass any final judgement here. Heinlein handled the situation beautifully)

 

[ILLYRIAN]

This explains things, it has been said many times that if it is canon then it is, regardless of if you'd like to think otherwise.
And what do we have here.

As far as I'm aware if something is canon, then it is canon, and no amount of 'I don't think Fred's soul was consumed by Illyria' talk is gonna change that.
Or are some people going to state that just because Joss Whedon allowed it to be in the show, that doesn't mean it is canon?