Joan the Vampire Slayer
Carpe Spuffy!
How does Joss protray male-male friendships in his works? Does it feel similar to female-female friendships?
Friendships in the Whedonverse
- Thread starter Joan the Vampire Slayer
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SallySparrow
I'll get some pillows
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There aren't too many bromances as such in the Whedonverse it seems (correct me if I've missed someone). You never really get a Troy/Abed or JD/Turk type relationship. The closest ones were Gunn/Wes (which ended poorly several times), Andrew/Jonathan (which ended poorly for Jonathan), and Mal/Wash (which never got to fully develop, though War Stories is great). A lot of the male/male friendships are a combination of gaining respect for the other person through trials and less so on common outside interests. The trio (mostly Andrew/Jonathan) might be the only male-centric relationship that actually became friends out of common interests. The female/female relationships on the shows seemed more frequent, more affectionate, and more centered on actual interests.
And I love Spike/Angel as much as the next guy, but I don't know if that qualifies as "friendship". There are a lot of male/male relationships in the Whedonverse where it felt these dudes were begrudgingly working together (Mal/Simon, Mal/Jayne, Xander/Spike, Giles/Spike).
Also, in shows like Buffy, there simply aren't that many full-time human males. Example: Xander can be friends with anyone, just so long as he isn't a vampire. This severely limits his bromance opportunities. I never got the feeling Riley truly respected him as a fighter and Xander and Giles' relationship is perhaps the least fleshed out of the scoobies. On Angel, I never felt Angel really became great "friends" with any of his male co-workers because he always kept everyone at a distance.
Bromances are often overlooked in the Whedonverse it seems. I'm interested to see what other people think about this.
And I love Spike/Angel as much as the next guy, but I don't know if that qualifies as "friendship". There are a lot of male/male relationships in the Whedonverse where it felt these dudes were begrudgingly working together (Mal/Simon, Mal/Jayne, Xander/Spike, Giles/Spike).
Also, in shows like Buffy, there simply aren't that many full-time human males. Example: Xander can be friends with anyone, just so long as he isn't a vampire. This severely limits his bromance opportunities. I never got the feeling Riley truly respected him as a fighter and Xander and Giles' relationship is perhaps the least fleshed out of the scoobies. On Angel, I never felt Angel really became great "friends" with any of his male co-workers because he always kept everyone at a distance.
Bromances are often overlooked in the Whedonverse it seems. I'm interested to see what other people think about this.
R
Robb Stark
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BuffyElevated
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Robb Stark
King in the North
Agree wholeheartedly with [MENTION=12502]SallySparrow[/MENTION]. Whedon shows tend to be very female driven and as such there aren't a ton of "bromance" friendships. A few, but not a huge pool to sift through.
Angel and Doyle were probably the most genuine. They really seemed to like one another and enjoy each other's company. The above poster made an excellent point about most of the existing male-male friendships on Whedon shows being based centrally around begrudging and increasingly gained levels of respect. There doesn't seem to be a ton of variation there, beyond Angel-Doyle and maybe one or two others.
For instance, I don't really think Xander has any real male friends. He has a few scenes here and there with Oz, but they aren't buddies. Ditto for him and Riley. Giles is his perpetually exasperated mentor/teacher figure. Him and Spike have great chemistry but certainly aren't "friends". He outright hates Angel. I suppose his "best" male friend would have be Andrew, but that's pretty much by default, and he isn't exactly subtle about how he looks down on Andrew.
I would say Angel and Wesley come close to being true friends at times, and probably are by the end, but there are so many times when their relationship is seriously fractured for it to anything special. Interestingly enough, I found their interactions in "After the Fall" to be very cool, and showcased their friendship for what it is quite well. Angel and Lorne are friends, and seem to like one another for who they are, in a similar way to Angel-Doyle. Gunn is really more his colleague. It's hard to really classify Angel and Spike as "friends", even though deep down, by the end I think they are. But their relationship is very much centered around them being frequently at odds and trying to one-up the other. Gunn and Wesley, much like Angel and Wes, have times when they seem like the best of friends...until they aren't. I don't think Connor is friends with any male figures at all.
On Firefly, it's a bit better. Mal and Jayne seem like buddies to me, even though both are aware that someday Jayne is going to betray him, which creates an interesting dynamic. I think Mal and Wash become friends after that grudging respect period. Mal and Simon go through the same routine, although I don't ever consider them buddies. Mal and Shepherd Book always seem to have a real healthy level of respect for one another, but are they "friends" like Angel and Doyle are? I don't think so.
So yeah, after a pretty lengthy examination, the Whedonverse doesn't have a lot of bromance going on. Angel seems to carry the load of it though. His friendship with Doyle is the gold standard for me, followed probably by Lorne and then with Spike and Wes (even if they have asterisks with them).
Angel and Doyle were probably the most genuine. They really seemed to like one another and enjoy each other's company. The above poster made an excellent point about most of the existing male-male friendships on Whedon shows being based centrally around begrudging and increasingly gained levels of respect. There doesn't seem to be a ton of variation there, beyond Angel-Doyle and maybe one or two others.
For instance, I don't really think Xander has any real male friends. He has a few scenes here and there with Oz, but they aren't buddies. Ditto for him and Riley. Giles is his perpetually exasperated mentor/teacher figure. Him and Spike have great chemistry but certainly aren't "friends". He outright hates Angel. I suppose his "best" male friend would have be Andrew, but that's pretty much by default, and he isn't exactly subtle about how he looks down on Andrew.
I would say Angel and Wesley come close to being true friends at times, and probably are by the end, but there are so many times when their relationship is seriously fractured for it to anything special. Interestingly enough, I found their interactions in "After the Fall" to be very cool, and showcased their friendship for what it is quite well. Angel and Lorne are friends, and seem to like one another for who they are, in a similar way to Angel-Doyle. Gunn is really more his colleague. It's hard to really classify Angel and Spike as "friends", even though deep down, by the end I think they are. But their relationship is very much centered around them being frequently at odds and trying to one-up the other. Gunn and Wesley, much like Angel and Wes, have times when they seem like the best of friends...until they aren't. I don't think Connor is friends with any male figures at all.
On Firefly, it's a bit better. Mal and Jayne seem like buddies to me, even though both are aware that someday Jayne is going to betray him, which creates an interesting dynamic. I think Mal and Wash become friends after that grudging respect period. Mal and Simon go through the same routine, although I don't ever consider them buddies. Mal and Shepherd Book always seem to have a real healthy level of respect for one another, but are they "friends" like Angel and Doyle are? I don't think so.
So yeah, after a pretty lengthy examination, the Whedonverse doesn't have a lot of bromance going on. Angel seems to carry the load of it though. His friendship with Doyle is the gold standard for me, followed probably by Lorne and then with Spike and Wes (even if they have asterisks with them).
Joan the Vampire Slayer
Carpe Spuffy!
What about Angel and Spike?
This is a good point. Also it seems like when the male-male friendships experience a betrayal, forgiveness is harder to find. For instance, when Wesley tries to steal Conner, Angel tries to suffocate him, and they arguably never really recover from it. But, when Faith betrays Buffy, she's angry for a while, but gets over it and even becomes friends with Faith.
Of course they're friends. They're beyond that, really. Angel taught Spike everything he knows. He calls him his "sire" and "Yoda." They shared a lifetime together. They know each other very well, and deeply care about each other. That's evident in how they push each other's buttons. Spike has saved Angel's life, and Angel has spared Spike's.
Really? I'd argue Doyle and Angel were friends. He was greatly affected by his death.
And what about Wesley? Angel was REALLY hurt by his betrayal, so he must have been pretty invested in the friendship.
SallySparrow
I'll get some pillows
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I'm not sure they "deeply care" about each other. They do band together when they need to, but I just don't buy that they are "friends". The term "frienemies" comes to mind. In season 2 of BTVS when Angelus comes back, they get chummy. But there is still this tension. Spike quickly gets bitter that Angelus is taking the reigns, stealing Dru from him, and planning apocalyptic mayhem. He gets so bitter that he ends up teaming up with Buffy to stop Angel. Its true, their lifetime together as marauding vampires might have been a great bromance, but we never really got to see it (even in flashbacks) and its clearly faded by the time they meet up again.
That being said, I love their relationship. Its fun to watch. Just not sure its a traditional friendship at this point in the game.
True, they were friends. I initially forgot about Doyle and Angel, mainly do to Doyle's quick departure from the show. I do agree they were friends and that could've developed into a stronger bromance. Their relationship was tense at first though and Doyle needed to win Angel over, as it seems to be the case with most male/male relationships on the show. You need to win Angel's respect and trust to be his friend, and even then, a traditional "bromance, bff, buddy" type relationship will probably not form. Angel cares deeply about his friends, he just shows it differently. Man, do I wish Doyle could've stuck around longer though.
As for Angel and Wes, that was a strong friendship, but it never recovered after that betrayal. But even before that, I don't recall Angel and Wes's relationship being more than professional and moderately friendly. Wesley and Gunn stick out more in my mind though in terms of traditional friendship. Angel's hurt after Wes took Conner was, in my mind, more about losing his son than about Wes' betrayal in itself. I'm actually doing a rewatch of Angel right now and I'm in season 2 (at the point where Angel has fired everyone) so right now I'm having trouble recollecting specifics about Angel and Wesley's relationship, so maybe I will see something new once I get to the point where they are speaking again, haha.
Wesley Pryce
wes and angel were close
Wesley Pryce
Angel Investigations
There are plenty of good male friendship in the Buffyverse. Angel and Wesley, Gunn and Wesley, Lorne and Angel, Lorne and Gunn,and Xander and Oz. very genuine too. men tend to hide their feelings around other men so that aspect of "hiding" is realistic.
Black Eye Guy
Taking over the World!
I think it's very clear that by season 5, Xander and Riley have a fantastic relationship. They are very much friends, scenes like they messing and wrestling around are some of the strongest male/male friendship scenes I can think of over the course of the series. and we see Riley confide in Xander, as well as Xander stand up Buffy in regards to her feeling for Riley.
Much like with many things with Riley, people just tend to dismiss that.
Angel and Spike aren't friends, I think like [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] had pointed out they are family. I dont know that, if one needed the other and they were in separate places they would they actually go out of their way to help each other (though maybe it's possible, I'm not ruling it out completely), but if they were in the same place, one wouldn't let the other die in a battle.
Xander has no relationship with Spike or Angel.
Giles isn't a friend friend. Like in comparing Giles relationship with the rest of the core to Tara, there seemed to be a much more friend like bond between Giles and Tara then there was a bond as friends between Giles and the rest, he was a mentor/father figure.
I think Spike and Clem were friends, they had a fun dynamic.
I dont think Jayne was friends with anyone, there was a level of respect there but no real friendship, I think that was proven when Jayne betrayed them, and maybe over time that would have been fixed but it was not meant to be! 🙁
I think there was a little bit of a real friendship between Wash and Mal, but there were a lot of factors in their way.
None in Dollhouse, that stick out to me.
Outside of those, Tony Stark and Bruce Banner had an awesome bromance in The Avengers.
and technically by the end of Toy Story Buzz and Woodie were friends.
though even through the rest of his wok (Alien, Atlantis: The Lost Empire, the X-men comics and his run on runaways) all those relationship main points are interactions with women, and very little with men/men
Much like with many things with Riley, people just tend to dismiss that.
Angel and Spike aren't friends, I think like [MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION] had pointed out they are family. I dont know that, if one needed the other and they were in separate places they would they actually go out of their way to help each other (though maybe it's possible, I'm not ruling it out completely), but if they were in the same place, one wouldn't let the other die in a battle.
Xander has no relationship with Spike or Angel.
Giles isn't a friend friend. Like in comparing Giles relationship with the rest of the core to Tara, there seemed to be a much more friend like bond between Giles and Tara then there was a bond as friends between Giles and the rest, he was a mentor/father figure.
I think Spike and Clem were friends, they had a fun dynamic.
I dont think Jayne was friends with anyone, there was a level of respect there but no real friendship, I think that was proven when Jayne betrayed them, and maybe over time that would have been fixed but it was not meant to be! 🙁
I think there was a little bit of a real friendship between Wash and Mal, but there were a lot of factors in their way.
None in Dollhouse, that stick out to me.
Outside of those, Tony Stark and Bruce Banner had an awesome bromance in The Avengers.
and technically by the end of Toy Story Buzz and Woodie were friends.
though even through the rest of his wok (Alien, Atlantis: The Lost Empire, the X-men comics and his run on runaways) all those relationship main points are interactions with women, and very little with men/men
Personally, I think the male-male friendships he portrays aren't that different from the female-female friendships, or the male-female friendships. I'll only use Angel and Buffy as example because I haven't seen Firefly, and Dollhouse simply doesn't have that many friendships to work on.
Let's start with Buffy. We are given very few male-male friendship. The main one I'd say is Riley and Xander. Those in my opinion are real buddies, they talk about intimate stuff that you wouldn't say to someone that isn't your friend, and they actually hang out outside of just the group meetings. That to me is a real friendship, and as much as I dislike Riley, I loved his bromance with Xander. I think Xander was also relatively close to Oz, but it isn't shown too much. In New Moon Rising it's pretty clear that Xander is happy to see Oz even if the circumstances are bad, and they talk outside of what is shown on screen.
Now if we look at the female friendship, the main one is Willow and Buffy, but that one is similar to the female-male friendship shared by Buffy-Xander and Willow-Xander. Outside of that we are shown friendships like Buffy-Tara, which is about at the same level of Riley-Xander. There is very few other real female-female friendship. Most of the girlfriends like Cordelia, Anya, Kennedy never truly mix to the group, and are only there base on the fact that they are dating one of the Scoobies. I don't think were shown necessarily stronger relationships for the females (outside of the core Scoobies) than we are shown for the males.
This brings me to my other point, what Whedon does best isn't female-female friendship or male-male friendship, but a weird almost family like relationship. That's really what were shown the most. Giles has that type of relationship with everyone, The group has that type of relationship towards Dawn, Faith and Buffy have a weird friendship steaming from them both being slayers, Angel and Spike have a family like bond, the examples just keep piling up.
On Angel, were shown the same thing. Most are friends, but they feel sort of family like. At times they just hate each other or they are broken apart, but there's always this feeling of a family bond between them. We are shown a lot more guy-guy friendship here though, Angel/Lorne, Angel/Doyle, Angel/Wes, Wes/Gunn. None are typical bromance (aside from Angel/Doyle), but they all have a family type feeling to them. And again, here we barely have any female-female friendships, they are almost entirely male-male or male-female.
Let's start with Buffy. We are given very few male-male friendship. The main one I'd say is Riley and Xander. Those in my opinion are real buddies, they talk about intimate stuff that you wouldn't say to someone that isn't your friend, and they actually hang out outside of just the group meetings. That to me is a real friendship, and as much as I dislike Riley, I loved his bromance with Xander. I think Xander was also relatively close to Oz, but it isn't shown too much. In New Moon Rising it's pretty clear that Xander is happy to see Oz even if the circumstances are bad, and they talk outside of what is shown on screen.
Now if we look at the female friendship, the main one is Willow and Buffy, but that one is similar to the female-male friendship shared by Buffy-Xander and Willow-Xander. Outside of that we are shown friendships like Buffy-Tara, which is about at the same level of Riley-Xander. There is very few other real female-female friendship. Most of the girlfriends like Cordelia, Anya, Kennedy never truly mix to the group, and are only there base on the fact that they are dating one of the Scoobies. I don't think were shown necessarily stronger relationships for the females (outside of the core Scoobies) than we are shown for the males.
This brings me to my other point, what Whedon does best isn't female-female friendship or male-male friendship, but a weird almost family like relationship. That's really what were shown the most. Giles has that type of relationship with everyone, The group has that type of relationship towards Dawn, Faith and Buffy have a weird friendship steaming from them both being slayers, Angel and Spike have a family like bond, the examples just keep piling up.
On Angel, were shown the same thing. Most are friends, but they feel sort of family like. At times they just hate each other or they are broken apart, but there's always this feeling of a family bond between them. We are shown a lot more guy-guy friendship here though, Angel/Lorne, Angel/Doyle, Angel/Wes, Wes/Gunn. None are typical bromance (aside from Angel/Doyle), but they all have a family type feeling to them. And again, here we barely have any female-female friendships, they are almost entirely male-male or male-female.
BuffyElevated
Scooby
We never really got to see any solid bromances in the Whedonverse. None of the male-male friendships lasted long, and none of them were very solid. Most of them were basically love/hate relationships.
One friendship I REALLY wish we'd gotten to see more of was Xander and Riley. I really loved scenes like the one where they started wrestling when they were helping Buffy move out of her dorm room, and the one where Riley and Xander were comparing relationships and Riley said the famous "But she doesn't love me" line about Buffy... There was real overlooked potential there, and it would have been nice for Xander to have a good male friend on the show.
One friendship I REALLY wish we'd gotten to see more of was Xander and Riley. I really loved scenes like the one where they started wrestling when they were helping Buffy move out of her dorm room, and the one where Riley and Xander were comparing relationships and Riley said the famous "But she doesn't love me" line about Buffy... There was real overlooked potential there, and it would have been nice for Xander to have a good male friend on the show.