Fuffy Instead Of Twillow

LoveLoveLovix disagrees: People say that it was out of character for me to date my girlfriend simply because I had always been attracted to guys. There really is no type for this sort of stuff, no way to tell until it happens.
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That's not always true... I think they did a great job setting up Willow. And when I realized I was gay it was a process. I didn't just wake up one day and say "You know what, I'm gay now." And I've always been gay. I can remember things stretching back to when I was a little kid playing with my friends where I had attraction to women I thought was just what everyone did. When I realized I was gay, I looked back at those times and realized that wasn't. Willow was set up with vamp Willow and Xander was set up with Larry. If Buffy suddenly was gay in season 4 it would have been forced. Her character never felt like she could ever be attracted to women... and that was ok because her character wasn't written to ever be attracted to women.

And there is a type of person who's gay... they're called gay people. Yes, we don't all have the same stereotypical behaviors, but we're all gay... from the time we're born. Buffy was straight. People don't "turn" gay. They ARE gay. Buffy wasn't, Willow was.
 
brinkster130
brinkster130
I agree, I think they did a good job setting up Willow.
zobothehobo said:
That's not always true... I think they did a great job setting up Willow. And when I realized I was gay it was a process. I didn't just wake up one day and say "You know what, I'm gay now." And I've always been gay. I can remember things stretching back to when I was a little kid playing with my friends where I had attraction to women I thought was just what everyone did. When I realized I was gay, I looked back at those times and realized that wasn't. Willow was set up with vamp Willow and Xander was set up with Larry. If Buffy suddenly was gay in season 4 it would have been forced. Her character never felt like she could ever be attracted to women... and that was ok because her character wasn't written to ever be attracted to women.

And there is a type of person who's gay... they're called gay people. Yes, we don't all have the same stereotypical behaviors, but we're all gay... from the time we're born. Buffy was straight. People don't "turn" gay. They ARE gay. Buffy wasn't, Willow was.
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I'm not saying that they didn't do an amazing job setting up Willow. I'm not saying it's not a process, I've been through it. And I am DEFINITELY not saying people "turn gay."

What I AM saying is that as part of the show, even Buffy has secrets that even we, as an audience, doesn't know at times. I don't think she could have been suddenly gay, that wouldn't have worked. I do believe that sometimes it takes the right person to unlock it. If Faith had come in Season 3, and Buffy had realized it... that would have seemed okay to me. I didn't realize I liked girls in any way shape or form until I met my girlfriend.

I don't think she could have been gay, not after a relationship that deep with Angel, but bi or pan I can see.
 
LoveLoveLovix said:
I'm not saying that they didn't do an amazing job setting up Willow. I'm not saying it's not a process, I've been through it. And I am DEFINITELY not saying people "turn gay."

What I AM saying is that as part of the show, even Buffy has secrets that even we, as an audience, doesn't know at times. I don't think she could have been suddenly gay, that wouldn't have worked. I do believe that sometimes it takes the right person to unlock it. If Faith had come in Season 3, and Buffy had realized it... that would have seemed okay to me. I didn't realize I liked girls in any way shape or form until I met my girlfriend.

I don't think she could have been gay, not after a relationship that deep with Angel, but bi or pan I can see.
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I agree to an extent. I just don't think Buffy even could have been bi. She felt straight to me... even that stunt in season 8 felt not right to me.
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M
mayfever
sadly enough, I agree. She's a total babe, but you just don't get any vibe from her.
That's not always true... I think they did a great job setting up Willow.
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They did? When? How? I mean, I love Willow/Tara but I really don't think Willow becoming gay was set up well. Vamp!Willow is (maybe) bisexual, this doesn't tell us anything about human Willow. Might as well claim Willow is a dominatrix because of how Vamp!Willwo dressed and behaved. 🙂

Xander was set up with Larry.
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What? You mean in a "the guy doth protest too much" fashion? Hardly much of a set up, IMO. I think describing Angel, Riley and Spike as attractive fits the bill better, if we really want to see some foreshadowing in this direction.
 
Icarium said:
They did? When? How? I mean, I love Willow/Tara but I really don't think Willow becoming gay was set up well. Vamp!Willow is (maybe) bisexual, this doesn't tell us anything about human Willow. Might as well claim Willow is a dominatrix because of how Vamp!Willwo dressed and behaved. 🙂
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Oh yeah, and you conveniently forget the "no, actually..." by the bad hair dude? (BTW... Freudian slip, much?)

The vampires personality IS the human's personality, just minus the inhibitions that you may call "moral", I would call "empathic". Vamp Willow won't like to do any kind of thing that human Willow wouldn't like in the dark deeps of her subconscious, too.
 
Icarium said:
They did? When? How? I mean, I love Willow/Tara but I really don't think Willow becoming gay was set up well. Vamp!Willow is (maybe) bisexual, this doesn't tell us anything about human Willow. Might as well claim Willow is a dominatrix because of how Vamp!Willwo dressed and behaved. 🙂
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it felt natural. I felt like Willow could be with a girl and yes, I think Vamp!Willow helped set that up. It felt natural and right to me.
For more on how Vamp!Willow is foreshadowing to me, I'm deferring to I'm above me

What? You mean in a "the guy doth protest too much" fashion? Hardly much of a set up, IMO. I think describing Angel, Riley and Spike as attractive fits the bill better, if we really want to see some foreshadowing in this direction.
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Ok, go with that then. I think the Larry thing set it up nicely too. It's not the guy doth protest too much it's the fact Larry thought he was gay.... but if you would perfer to use the fact he called all three of Buffy's major boyfrinds attractive, ok... use that
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I'm a big Fuffy shipper, I'd love it, but probably not from the very beginning.

Here's a thought ... what if Angel were Angela? What if Spike had a thing for Angela, and we had a love triangle?
 
Midwestern Watc said:
I'm a big Fuffy shipper, I'd love it, but probably not from the very beginning.

Here's a thought ... what if Angel were Angela? What if Spike had a thing for Angela, and we had a love triangle?
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If Buffy was written to be gay from the beginning I would have really enjoyed that. A lot. It would be a shame then we wouldn't have any Spuffy... but if Buffy was written to be gay, and Angel was Angela instead... I think it would have been great.
 
Bisexual Tension?

sylvanscribe said:
1) I would have found it slightly more believable with respect to the characters. Faith is a wild girl and I would have no problem believing she would experiment, especially since all her men were losers. As for Buffy, Faith always spoke to her dark side, and I think there could have been a certain attraction beyond a purely platonic.

2) I would have found it more enjoyable to watch. Both Allyson and Amber are cute girls, but not in my opinion especially hot. ED is hot. SMG, before she became emaciated, was hot. The two of them together ... steaming.

Rather than gay per se, I think the two should have had some bisexual tension that they would indulge for a season or so. And of course, when it didn't work out in the end, they could have gone back to men.
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I detect lots of bisexual tension in "Bad Girls." Have you ever looked at http://buffynfaith.net? There was a thread up there I should've copied, I can't seem to find it now, but I found quotes from the writers saying they intended a lesbian subtext. I wish I could find that again ...
 
Z
zobothehobo
Really? I don't really get that when I watch that episode... Huh, I'll have to watch again keeping that in mind
white avenger said:
(This isn't as much for the purpose of giving the Fuffy shippers a thrill as it is to get the opinion of the other Board members)

What would your reaction have been if, instead of Willow entering into a gay relationship with Tara, the gay couple had been Buffy and Faith? Or Buffy and Willow, or Cordelia, or Tara, or Anya... My point being, if Buffy insread of Willow had been the gay star, how would it have effected your viewing of the show?
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If you will note, after the first sentence of the question, I specified that Buffy could have been coupled with any of several female characters, Fuffy was just an example. I only point this out because some people seem to have more issue with the character of Faith than they do with the relationship in general.
 
I liked Tara, but I always thought if anyone was going to go gay it would have been Buffy with Faith. The chemistry was there from the very beginning, and I think they could have been such a hot couple.
 
Lesbian Subtext, Faith and Buffy

Gosh, how long a post am I permitted? Basically I'm reproducing a thread that appeared on BuffynFaith.net, in which the newest post was in 2009 ...

"http://buffynfaith.net/forums/index.php

Subtext in the Show*, Buffy/Faith

RockerWolfPup June 26, 2008 07:40 pm

Fell for a straight girl and got played!

I've been looking EVERYWHERE for the interview or whatever it was....

I know that it has been said by Joss and Eliza that the subtext between
Buffy and Faith was intentional... but where is the interview at? I
can't seem to find them on the internet.

--------------------
"Hey, I likes me some kink, but if you think I'm going downtown on *this
chick*, you chose the *wrong chosen one*!"

1: Did Faith(Joss) foreshadow Buffy being gay with Satsu?
or
2: Did Faith basically say, "Hey I like kink but if you think I'm going
down on Gigi, you chose the wrong chick. I'd only do that with Buffy."?

...?

I like number 2!
**
Oralfxatn June 27, 2008 12:52 am
The wet spot is icky, Faith, we're changing the sheets!

Hey RockerWolfPup,

I haven't heard about Joss and Eliza mentioning that, but it is
mentioned by Doug Petrie during the commentary for Bad Girls in the
season 3 DVD. And since he wrote that episode, it was good enough for
me. But I would love to see Joss or Eliza mentioning it too, so if you
ever find something like that, hook us up, please!

RockerWolfPup June 27, 2008 05:07 am

Fell for a straight girl and got played!

I went looking today and the closet thing I found was what was said on
this forum.

The Forum
<http://forums.fanhost.com/hollywood-starlets-122/eliza-dushku-150/169528-question-about-fuffy.

html>

Barnabas June 27, 2008 07:44 am

Proud Member of the Satsu Fan Club

At the risk of having rotten fruits and vegetables thrown at me, I
watched the audio commentary for "Bad Girls" not too long ago, and Doug
Petrie doesn't say quite as much about it as I think most of us believe
he does. I know that I was actually pretty disappointed, because my
perception (from my dim memory of last listening to it, 4-5 years ago)
was that he talked about the subtext between the characters as being a
deliberate thing on the part of the writers, and also Eliza and Sarah.

Not quite

When Faith is drawing the heart on the window, he says something like,
"Ooh, look: lesbian subtext." And then says pretty much the same thing
again about something later in the ep (maybe the dancing scene). And
that's it. What he talks about with Eliza "going for it", and "really
pushing the envelope" wasn't about the Fuffy subtext, but about the
sexuality of the character in general.

Of course, that doesn't make any of the *_TONS_* of subtext any less
ridiculously-obvious. tongue.gif I mean, it's so in-your-face that it
/has/ to be deliberate (start with the originally-scripted kiss on the
lips in "Enemies", and go from there), whether they've admitted much
about it in interviews or not...

RockerWolfPup June 27, 2008 03:44 pm

I watched Bad Girl's again, and you right about Doug. Only when Buffy
and Faith where walking by the fountain they say more about it.

Faith grunts and then Buffy says "Again with the grunting, you realize
I'm not comfortable with this"

Doug is talking about faith and the sexuality on the show then when
Buffy ends her line he says something along these lines "Here's the
Lesbian Subtext. *some more stuff explaining it* and then when we told
Eliza about it, she was all for it. Even went farther than we
thought.... and no one really stopped her. *giggles*"

So I guess, yeah there's not direct "Buffy/Faith" talkage but there's
still the deliberate subtext between them.

It's enough to make me happy though... and there's still the comics...
*daydreams*

lilyme October 26, 2008 03:21 pm

Miss Attention Span

I just noticed this two days ago - weird...

Okay, preface: In Phases, Willow says

*QUOTE*
"It used to be so easy to tell if a guy liked you. He'd punch you on the
arm and then run back to his friends."

And then Xander comes along and punches Buffy in the arm, and she gives
him a weird look.

In the first scene of "Revelations" (the scene, which itself is a
Fuffy-moment already), Faith, the "someone" Buffy is going out with
tonight, walks up to the table of the Scoobies, says hi to the others...
and then punches Buffy in the arm before putting her arm around Buffy's
shoulder. Doesn't matter if this was intended by the authors or not - in
connection to Willow's quote it's pretty funny.

Radical Dreamer October 26, 2008 03:52 pm

Change me


I remember the commentary for Bad Girls and Doug says it's a "seduction"
with Faith and Buffy. I took that literally. 😵

Miz Black Crow August 25, 2009 12:19 am

Prawn-dwelling goat-beast!

Not sure if anyone else caught this, and I know it's not technically a
Fuffy subtext, but at one point during "Who Are You" (about 12 mins into
the ep.) when Faith, driving Buffy's body, is dancing in the Bronze,
she's DEFINITELY dancing with a girl for a little while. It's not
particularly dirty, but there's hand contact on the girl's shoulder--and
the girl herself has short hair and a tight sweater. It could be an
implication of Faith's bi-ness... or it could just be, y'know, dancing.
But seriously? We all know Faith has the hots for the ladies, too wink.gif"

Now my own voice here ... I just finished watching the S3 overview, Doug Petrie on Faith appears about 13:50 to 16:05 ... he talks about sexuality but not Lesbianism, doesn't seem to say anything direct. The commentary mentioned here, I'll go look up soon, have to relook at my DVDs ...

There's a URL in this thread, I tried to follow it, got a 404, too bad.

Apparently no one on the show, including Doug and Eliza, has ever been caught saying explicitly "there is sexual tension between Faith and Buffy." But Fuffy shippers (I'm proud to say I'm one) find plenty of grounds for believing it is there.

I'm looking forward to additional comments, I have more to learn about this too.
 
If you watch "Bad Girls" with the optional voice-over commentary by Doug Petrie, you will hear this at 1936 into the episode:

And here she comes. I love this. And there's the heart. Again, lesbian subtext. But the heart with the stake through it, let's go stake some vampires in the heart, and yet it's this kind of romantic image at the same time, because it's almost a seduction. You know, Faith is very sexy, and she's saying "Come play with me," and she couldn't care less about Willow or school ...
 
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