Episode Discussion Game of Thrones, Season 8

[The Bronze]

Not really. I think they guaranteed a pod-person overlord for all eternity. Somebody who can see any rival, any assassin, and threat to their reign before it comes to be and stop it.
The king is dead. Long live the king. Forever and ever.

Yeah just been thinking more on it and that's definitely an option. I don't think we know enough about the three eyed bran to be sure what's in store. Which is cool. I mean by accepting that the position shouldn't be hereditary in principle they've moved on a step. Obviously not too far as they still love their titles and noble families.

 

[Mylie]

I did love Jon going to live with the wildlings and Ghost but it did make me wish Ygritte was still there.

 

[RomanticSoul]

Yeah just been thinking more on it and that's definitely an option. I don't think we know enough about the three eyed bran to be sure what's in store. Which is cool. I mean by accepting that the position shouldn't be hereditary in principle they've moved on a step. Obviously not too far as they still love their titles and noble families.

Nothing has really changed though. And this regime will fail in fall in no time. The council having Tyrion and Bronn on it will guarantee it. And so will 3ER who can't even spend more than 5 seconds at a meeting. It doesn't even make sense within the world of Westeros but D&D have never understood the setting, something that has been painfully obvious since they ran out of book material. But there is no way anyone in the South will tolerate Bran. The North worships the old gods but the rest of Westeros the Faith of the 7 and they would see Bran/3ER as evil. Hell there is no way Dorne or the Iron Islands will sit still for long, they will be pushing for independence in no time. It didn't even make sense that everyone there didn't ask any questions like 'what the hell is a 3ER?' when Tyrion said that. The show acts as if they all know. And it's sad that no on there seems to have a working brain to figure out that 3ER let KL burn just so he could become King.

I think what's in store is easy. More death for humans. The 3ER is another weapon of the Children of the Forest, just like the NK. It just didn't fail and turn on it's creators like the NK did. Westeros used to be inhabited by the Children until men came and took their lands. The Children took it back now.

 

[The Bronze]

Nothing has really changed though. And this regime will fail in fall in no time.

I think they've bent the wheel slightly. I believe they'll enter a period of stability for a while. Everyone leading the major houses said aye and they've all seen the destruction of the last 20 years. It's a compromise solution that will allow everyone to recover for a while. Agree that it won't last though, which I think is a fitting ending.

I have a question about the 3 Eyed Raven. Does he see a future, multiple futures or The Future? Essentially is everything pre determined to happen or can people or the 3ER effect outcomes?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I think they've bent the wheel slightly.

Well that sucks for Bran as his wheelchair wont be able to move.

But seriously, the majority of Westeros supports the Seven when they find out who Bran really is then I can't imagine it would go over very well.

I have a question about the 3 Eyed Raven. Does he see a future, multiple futures or The Future? Essentially is everything pre determined to happen or can people or the 3ER effect outcomes?

That's the other issue, supposedly they are only able to see through weirwoods and as, at least in the show, there are no weirwoods in the south, ie Kings Landing, he is effectively blind. I think in the show he/they are more omnipotent, so maybe that doesn't matter.

That's the other thing that pissed me off about the finale because sitting right there is Howland Reed and there was not one single line of dialogue from him.

 

[RomanticSoul]

I have a question about the 3 Eyed Raven. Does he see a future, multiple futures or The Future? Essentially is everything pre determined to happen or can people or the 3ER effect outcomes?

That's the other issue, supposedly they are only able to see through weirwoods and as, at least in the show, there are no weirwoods in the south, ie Kings Landing, he is effectively blind. I think in the show he/they are more omnipotent, so maybe that doesn't matter.

As far as the show goes, I think he's similar to Dr. Strange. He can see the action of the present and then forward to the outcome. And then change something in the present to achieve a different outcome. Either that or he can see the future and then trace it back. But we know in the show he can see beyond places where there are no weirwoods like the Tower of joy vision or R+L secret marriage because Dorn has no weirwoods. We also know he can see the future. In his S6 vision he saw the dragon over King's Landing (the vision became real in 8x05) and the Sept explosion, he gave Arya the dagger in S7 knowing she would kill the NK and he knew he would become King.

What is interesting here is that since we know he can see the future, there are a lot of things he manipulated (in large part by inaction) in his favor. He could have stopped the mission beyond the wall and the NK would have never crossed into Westeros. He didn't involve himself too much with the Long Night battle to save as many as he could. This is important in regards to Daenerys (Jorah's death, huge part of her army dying). He timed the reveal of Jon's parentage perfectly. He could have send a raven to Winterfell in S7 when he got to Castle Black, stopping Jon from leaving to Dragonstone. He could have warged a raven and send it directly into Jon's lap when he was on Dragonstone. He could have told Daenerys to go along the Kingsroad with the Northern troops which would have saved Rheagal and Missandei. Basically he did everything he could to make it so Daenerys would get hit with as many losses as possible in a short time, ensuring she would go crazy. And as a result, the 3 biggest claimants to the throne (Cersei, Daenerys, Jon) were all eliminated. Lets also remember that Tyrion conversation they cut away from when Tyrion asked Bran his story. Bran has made it no secret that he doesn't talk much or explain anything (like when Sansa asked in S7 what the hell 3ER means). But he told Tyrion his journey? Well look who nominated him as King because he has 'the best story'.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

What is interesting here is that since we know he can see the future, there are a lot of things he manipulated (in large part by inaction) in his favor. He could have stopped the mission beyond the wall and the NK would have never crossed into Westeros. He didn't involve himself too much with the Long Night battle to save as many as he could. This is important in regards to Daenerys (Jorah's death, huge part of her army dying). He timed the reveal of Jon's parentage perfectly. He could have send a raven to Winterfell in S7 when he got to Castle Black, stopping Jon from leaving to Dragonstone. He could have warged a raven and send it directly into Jon's lap when he was on Dragonstone. He could have told Daenerys to go along the Kingsroad with the Northern troops which would have saved Rheagal and Missandei. Basically he did everything he could to make it so Daenerys would get hit with as many losses as possible in a short time, ensuring she would go crazy. And as a result, the 3 biggest claimants to the throne (Cersei, Daenerys, Jon) were all eliminated. Lets also remember that Tyrion conversation they cut away from when Tyrion asked Bran his story. Bran has made it no secret that he doesn't talk much or explain anything (like when Sansa asked in S7 what the hell 3ER means). But he told Tyrion his journey? Well look who nominated him as King because he has 'the best story'.

That's what is so great about it. If he didn't make that comment "Why do you think I came down here" I would not have been okay with it, but by his saying those words really makes him the villain of the whole thing. I still say it's not Bran but Brynden in his body. Especially when you look at some of the comments Bran made about his not trusting crows and they are all liars, etc.

You can see a lot of similarities between Jon and Brynden as well. Okay, maybe not alot, but the brush strokes are the same.

 

[Guy]

Well, it was a step down from episode 5, but I still liked the finale overall. It gave me a whole lot of feels...

The epilogue was all kinds of messy:

- Everything about Bran is dumb. There was ZERO set-up for his ending here.
- Arya's arc ended perfectly in the last episode, but this episode still managed to screw up the aftermath. Why is she still threatening to murder people without a second thought? I thought this show is AGAINST cycles of violence? And the "Arya the explorer" ending should have been set up WAAAAY earlier. It should feel like a heartwarming ending, and instead it just feels like "well, sure, whatever, I guess it's better than killing more people".
- The fact that Dany's violent ways were condemned as steps on the way to evil is great... But the fact that EVERYONE ELSE'S violence was treated as fine? That's messed up. Sansa, Jon, Arya, Tyrion... All of them fell into the same cycles of violence that ended up corrupting and destroying Dany & Sandor. And the fact that their violent ways weren't explored/condemned was extremely unsatisfying. The internet keeps harping about how Dany got character-assassinated, but I think she's the only one who actually got a satisfying conclusion. Her character arc was completed, and it shaped the entire plot. Everyone else just sort of fizzled out.
- The new political status quo is just not a satisfyig conclusion. It doesn't truly feel like the wheel was broken. All it did was to give the 7 kingdoms the same political system that rules the iron islands - and it doesn't seem to work very well for the iron islands. Things are obviously going to tumble back into chaos and war, eventually, and nothing would really change in the long run. I think it would have been better to just end the show with the 7 kingdoms splitting up for good, now that King's Landing and the iron throne are no more. But really, maybe it would have been better to just end the show with a sort of "nothing ever really changes" theme - a la the Godfather. Game of Thrones isn't Lord of the Rings, it doesn't really need to end with the fantasy that everyone will live happily ever after.

But the important thing is the climax, isn't it? And this one was great. You can't go wrong copying from Buffy 🙂
Drogon burning the iron throne in 20 seconds was more satisfying than 30 minutes of talk about how the political system is changed. The entire scene in the throne-room was just my kind of poetic:
Dany redeeming herself through Drogon burning the iron throne, after the pursuit of that throne destroyed her life. Drogon mourning her as a son, but completing her life's purpose like a reincarnation. Drogon breaking Dany's cycle of violence, by refusing to burn Jon. Dany's body being taken away by a mystical being to an unknown location, like king Arthur after his death - hinting at a possible, eventual resurrection. God, it's all so beautiful - that scene HAD to come directly from George Martin's notes, there's no way D&D could come up with something so perfect. The follow-up to that climax was disappointing, and the lead-up to it wasn't perfect either, but that scene is so stunning that it redeems the whole episode for me.

A lot of these characters lost their meaning over the years... but dammit, I'm really going to miss Daenerys. She deserved better.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

"Arya the explorer" ending should have been set up WAAAAY earlier.

It was. It was set-up a few seasons ago, back when she was in Braavos.

 

[Guy]

It was. It was set-up a few seasons ago, back when she was in Braavos.

Yep. I meant that it needed to be set up WAAAY earlier - in season 1, not in season 6. You want to get that feeling of full-circle-ness in the finale. And her interest in that should have been delved into far more extensively - exploring shouldn't just be something that she thinks is cool, it should be something that means a lot to her. That way, her ending would feel cathartic.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Yep. I meant that it needed to be set up WAAAY earlier - in season 1, not in season 6.

But it was. Even going back to when they first took the Kingsroad to Kings Landing. Sansa lamenting that Ayra wanted to ride horses and see the country versus riding with them eating lemoncakes. It wasn't until later when she actually left Westeros and traveled more in the world that she took the same passions she had and expanded them to a larger scale. She was always an adventurer and wanted to see what was out there.

 

[Guy]

But it was. Even going back to when they first took the Kingsroad to Kings Landing. Sansa lamenting that Ayra wanted to ride horses and see the country versus riding with them eating lemoncakes. It wasn't until later when she actually left Westeros and traveled more in the world that she took the same passions she had and expanded them to a larger scale. She was always an adventurer and wanted to see what was out there.

That happened in the books, not the show. Show-Arya only cared about fighting in the early seasons, she didn't show any interest in exploring. We never even see her riding horses in season 1. I suppose the explorer ending would make sense in the books, if they ever get there, but it doesn't really work in the show.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

That happened in the books, not the show. Show-Arya only cared about fighting in the early seasons, she didn't show any interest in exploring. We never even see her riding horses in season 1.

I thought it happened in the show too. Maybe I'm remembering wrong. I sometimes get them all mixed up together. Which can be really confusing at times.


edit: you're right. It didn't happen in the show. That sucks.

 

[RomanticSoul]

That's what is so great about it. If he didn't make that comment "Why do you think I came down here" I would not have been okay with it, but by his saying those words really makes him the villain of the whole thing. I still say it's not Bran but Brynden in his body. Especially when you look at some of the comments Bran made about his not trusting crows and they are all liars, etc.

You can see a lot of similarities between Jon and Brynden as well. Okay, maybe not alot, but the brush strokes are the same.

It's not Brandon. The 3ER is a consciousness that is the sum of all the memories of the Children and all the info stored in the weirwood trees. And I think the comment about not trusting crows was Old Nan's, when Bran came out of his coma in S1.

Whether the 3ER is evil or the villain depends on your perspective. In this case it's the pro-human vs anti-human debate. Would you consider the Indians evil if they had a 3ER weapon in their arsenal and bid their time to fully unleash it and took back the land stolen from them? Sure, the current generations had nothing to do with what their ancestors did. But then the Indians did nothing to the Europeans except defending their land before they were slaughtered. Men took the lands of the Children away from them and then force bred with female Children. The Children made weapons to fight back humans, the 3ER and the NK (only in the show). The latter went rogue but the 3ER was always on mission (probably due to so many Children being part of the weirwood memories). By having 3ER on the throne of Westeros, the Children won. And God help Westeros because I doubt the 3ER is done sacrificing humans.

I thought it happened in the show too. Maybe I'm remembering wrong. I sometimes get them all mixed up together. Which can be really confusing at times.

It did happen in the show. Arya made a comment about going West of Westeros before in the early Seasons. I'm pretty sure of that. But she only mentioned it once I think.

 

[Bite-me]

Have not combed through this thread yet but will get to all your very smart opinions. My take is I loved the penultimate episode, first time GOT has ever subverted my expectations and the rejoinder of the horror of war made the audience feel complict. I wanted Dany to take the city so it gave me everything I wanted, want to make a person suffer just give them what they want!

I am very good at not being what is called a "bad fan" a audience member for roots for a protagonist who does wrong because they are the protagonist. I saw the end of Dexter coming a mile away. This reminder of the horror of war was unexpected and devastating. A pyrrhic victory. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Afterwards I thought that In its way it redeemed the problems I had with the series.

While I one hundred percent understand the message they went with, I am disappointed it came at the expense of Daenary's character and the message / optics of ambitious women. At first because I liked the ending I thought maybe it redeemed the less then stellar portrayal of female characters but i am rethinking that now .. it ended in the murder of Daenary and Jon going free, everyone loathes Cersei while her rapist brother and the girlfriend killing Tyrion both got redemption arcs.

I was cheering for my girl Daenary to take the throne, like many and thats why its so brilliant giving people more of what they want then they can handle. The brutality of war was reminder for the audience as much for the characters. The futility of seeking revenge, the high price of vengeance. What I like about Cersei's defiant "I want to live" is she had three kids what makes her think she be any better this time? acknowledging the futility but she is going to try anyways is heartbreaking. Jamie's "We are all that matters" is selfish per course but it can also be read as a kind of peacemaking and he was making peace with their imminent death, I just wonder where was this pacifism was at while he was alive! perhaps it would have gotten them further but that is the "turn the other cheek" in me, it might not work like this in the real world or a brutal bloody fantasy one.

While I did like the twist of the penultimate episode and its message, finale episode I was like, they will not turn me against you Daenary's with this pompeii and fascist imagery, still believe in revolutions! I was like damn them making us sit through this anti-Hilary PSA haha it is bad timing since our hearts are already broken! we wanted a better world! however for what they were aiming for it was well executed.

I like that the series thesis statement of power and politics was at the forefront in the end. It also had a lack of finality which feels true to real life. Has anything changed? like sisyphus, the work is never done, peace and security are never established or permanent, our choices define us and we are never done choosing.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

The Children made weapons to fight back humans, the 3ER

But there was peace with the children and first men for thousands of years, long before Brynden became the three-eyed crow. I didn't think the children invented greenseers or skinchangers.

 

[Taake]

As someone who just follows the show through spoilers and clips these days, all I wanted was for Drogon to live (yay, he did. Though now I'm sad because he's all alone) and Arya to die (boo, she didn't. Unless, like Frodo, her journey is to a place she can't come back from I guess).

What I don't understand is - why was Dany alone with John Snow? (Like no body guards at all, seems weird)
What does the Night's Watch even do now if the Night King and the White Walkers are dead?
Was the budget really low on this episode? Why else did it look like Jamie and Cersei would've been fine if they had just taken two steps to the side? Like, was there a bricks and rubble budget they were constrained by? Ok, that last one is just a pet peeve. It seemed like the whole house came down on them but then, not so much. For a show that's not usually so squeamish, their bodies looked very pristine for having been crushed.

 

[Buffy Summers]

I wasn't incensed by the ending, and I thought the episode was good at the beginning and at the end. But in the middle parts it became a farce, from that awful joke about letting the people choose the king - that's just not the tone of the show and I really thought it didn't fit. The small council meeting felt like they just let the actors ad lib the whole thing...and the book was just stupid. But even if they didn't give Jon Snow the ending I wanted, I thought they gave him a good enough ending, so I'm satisfied. I just feel like the saddest thing in the entire episode shouldn't have been Drogon sniffing Dany's body...

I am interested to see what the next book does, if GRRM ever finishes it.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Though now I'm sad because he's all alone

No he's not. He flew off with Dan Aries to Essos to meet up with Kinvara so she can resurrect her the same as Melisandre did for Jon. I mean, honestly, Jon was stabbed dozens of times and res'ed, Danny was stabbed once.

So, it's a happy ending for him! He's not alone.

the book was just stupid.

That's going to happen in the books too when they are done, but it will probably be more subtle. It's his homage to Lord of the Rings.

even if they didn't give Jon Snow the ending I wanted, I thought they gave him a good enough ending

He probably got the most satisfying ending in the show to be honest.

 

[RomanticSoul]

But there was peace with the children and first men for thousands of years, long before Brynden became the three-eyed crow. I didn't think the children invented greenseers or skinchangers.

The Children were the greenseers and skinchangers. They were small and couldn't fight men so they used animals to fight (skinchanging). The ability to greensee is also theirs because of the weirwoods. And just because there was peace doesn't mean the Children didn't resent the hell out of men for destroying their trees and taking their land. We see it all throughout our own history, nations can hold a grudge for generations against those who conquered them. The Starks have Children blood themselves, hence the ability to warg/skinchange and greensee. When the Children gave up, their females were forced to mate with humans, passing down those abilities.

Unless, like Frodo, her journey is to a place she can't come back from I guess

Considering that anyone who ever sailed west of Westeros was never heard from again, just imgine the same happening to Arya.