Gay Marriage 2

[Jman82188]

ok i guess since the old thread was over the limit, ill start the new one.

id like to comment on a few things ppl said.

OK, I agree with you that some churches are like that. Not all. My church is fairly open with their ideals as long as it abides by the book. The church isnt the ultimate say, God is. God never condemned The African Americans... only people in the church did. And they were sinning!
When Jesus says love your fellow man, he means be at peace with them, do not judge them, that is God's job. Its like, I know in America they have Capital Punishment. Thats like, the ultimate Crime.. even if a person has commited murder, humans have no right to reap so much vengeance on a person as to publically murder them in return. They will have their judgement passed by God. It is not ours to judge. Its the same with Gay people, and also the reason I dont mind Gay people, its not my place to judge them, its Gods place.

ok, whoa. so you're saying its a sin to condemn the african americans but not the gays? so god didnt approve of what people were doing to the african americans (though I bet if you asked people back then they would have said he did) but he says its ok to condemn the gays? can you say double standard? and how do you know that people wont be saying the same thing about this that people were sinning but god didnt approve years from now? i dont mean to be mean, because trust me, i do accept your view though I'm not religious, but as you know, the concept of god (for some people) is not that clear and im just wondering if you have any other argument? because so far your entire argument has been pretty much "well, god says its a sin". what if someone doesnt believe in god? imagine, for a minute (im not asking you to change your view, just imagine) that you dont think there is a god. then that argument is a pretty moot point isnt it? also on that, so its not OK to judge people but god can? again, how do you KNOW that god is saying gays are sinners? you dont really unless you're very religious. and how do we know people wont just intereperet that part of the bible differently if (notice i said if) they later change their mind about how they treated them as they did with the african americans. and despite whether god judged them or not, id says humans are doing a helluva lot of judging themselves!

they are just feelings. We arent condemned for those... but its when you act upon those feelings that you are choosing to be Gay and to defy the will of God.

so what are they supposed to do, just NEVER do anything sexual? im pretty sure this has been brought up before, but imagine that it was the other way around and you weren't allowed to act on any straight feelings. im sure we've all felt hormones and sexual attraction....wouldnt it get you angry to be told that you'd burn in hell if you ever acted on feelings about the opposite gender? its not fair to say that gay people cant enjoy themselves sexually but straight people can.

I dont know why people get married if they arent doing it for God. It seems like a pointless exercise.

are you kidding me? are you saying that non-religious people have no need to get married? please tell me you know there are other reasons even if you dont find them importnat, because if you seriously cant think of one other reason, then thats really sad. there are SO many reasons to get married. how about to spend the rest of your life with the person you love, or theres also (though not as romantic) financial reasons. many people dont get married for god at all. personally, as ive said before, im not religious and frankly, many RELIGIOUS ceremonies and procedures seem pointless to me. im not saying theyre bad, they just have no tangible purpose and im not very spiritual so to me there has to be some sort of tangible purpose for actions.

@randygiles, have you ever considered that people might want a baby that was their own? that they might want a child that didnt feel like it came from/belonged somewhere else and that they are actually the genetic parent of? i know people are gonna say that those things dont really matter but to some people they do matter, and a alot of women really want kids of their own but cant get them. so they shouldnt be allowed to have kids thru a sperm donor, their only option, because there are kids that could be adopted elsewhere in the world. is that fair? and not that id know but i imagine that adoption is a very complicated and stressful process (as is insemination i assume, but probably in a different way or less so). im just saying its not fair to deny people options because you dont want another child brought into the world. if they want to have a kid (and cant) but dont want to adopt, why should they have to? and btw, sperm donation isnt a profession as you made it sound. its not like you go in and provide sperm, go home and come back the next day and so on and so forth for a long period of time. its just something people do to get some extra cash, or contribute to the something.

i think we're getting a little offtopic with the divorce thing, but my general opinion is that you shouldnt marry someone unless you're sure that you want to spend the rest of your life toghether but at the same time, if you realize later that it was a mistake, i dont think theres anything wrong with divorce. theres no reason to stay married if you're unhappy.

ive rambled on for long enough so im not gonna waste space quoting people that i agree with, but ill just say that i totally agree with everything said after randygiles's post (not that i dont agree with some things before that, just not all of it.)

i hope i havent offended anyone as i wasnt trying to. just trying to express my opinion.

 

[RandyGiles]

I did not mean to say that people should not have the right to use those methods. The technology is there and the government probably should not be the ones stopping people. My only point was that with so many children in need of parents out there, it seems selfish to create your own. I am definitely not saying that it is fair, since there is nothing fair about infertility to begin with. I am only saying that that is how my personal system of morals works. I do not mean to impose them on anyone else.

Also, I did not mean to imply that anyone was a full-time professional sperm donor. I am just saying that it is a means of making extra cash that I would imagine a lot of people use on a regular basis, like donating blood (like the kids in the Buffy episode "Anne").

 

[Powerful wicka]

I dont agree with you, its not selfish to have your own children, i dont understand how you got that idea?, but i cant agree with you on that. Maybe people want to see their genes carried on, ever think of that? I have a friend at school who is adpted an she has told me she feels empty because she has never met her own family and she also said she wish she was with her own family and not her adoption family. Not that i think that adoption is a bad thing. I think it is wonderful, especially if gay people decide to adopt, its wonderful cause. I just think if people wanted to have their own children, its ok. I dont think there is anything wrong with sperm donation but like i said adoption would probobly a better way. Ok were getting WAY to off topic.

Gay people should be able to be married in a religous ceremony if they chose to, but a legal binding is ok to. But if they want a religous marriage they should be able to have one. Gay people are wonderful and should'nt be frowned upon for ANY religious reasons. That is just my opinion

 

[Vampyr]

ok, whoa. so you're saying its a sin to condemn the african americans but not the gays? so god didnt approve of what people were doing to the african americans (though I bet if you asked people back then they would have said he did) but he says its ok to condemn the gays? can you say double standard?

Ok whoa yourself... you've gone on a little rampage there luv.. The reason God doesnt condemn African people is because they arent sinning... DUH! Double Standard whatever more like it...

and how do you know that people wont be saying the same thing about this that people were sinning but god didnt approve years from now? i dont mean to be mean, because trust me, i do accept your view though I'm not religious, but as you know, the concept of god (for some people) is not that clear and im just wondering if you have any other argument? because so far your entire argument has been pretty much "well, god says its a sin". what if someone doesnt believe in god? imagine, for a minute (im not asking you to change your view, just imagine) that you dont think there is a god. then that argument is a pretty moot point isnt it?

No, thats my only reason against Gay Marriage. Is there a problem with that? I really dont understand what you are trying to prove here... If I didnt believe in God then I would have no problem with Gay Marriage.. at least I have a basis for my argument, whereas you have none!

also on that, so its not OK to judge people but god can? again, how do you KNOW that god is saying gays are sinners? you dont really unless you're very religious. and how do we know people wont just intereperet that part of the bible differently if (notice i said if) they later change their mind about how they treated them as they did with the african americans.

Yeah.. speak english please? The Bible says its a sin, thats how we know.. the bible is Gods word, what more proof do you need?

so what are they supposed to do, just NEVER do anything sexual? im pretty sure this has been brought up before, but imagine that it was the other way around and you weren't allowed to act on any straight feelings. im sure we've all felt hormones and sexual attraction....wouldnt it get you angry to be told that you'd burn in hell if you ever acted on feelings about the opposite gender? its not fair to say that gay people cant enjoy themselves sexually but straight people can.

yeah probably, but if and when thats the case I too would be sinning wouldnt I! And I wouldnt act upon those feelings because I would rather be as close to getting to heaven as I can.. Life is short, eternity isnt! Would you rather spend a short period of time being homosexually active and eternity paying for it or the other alternative?

All those reasons for marriage that you raised are fair and nice but those things arent possible without marriage? You cant spend the rest of your life with the person you love unless you get married? Is that what you are trying to tell me? All those legal points can be dealt with by having a Legal Binding...

Powerful Wicca: You shouldnt say things that you arent completely sure of. If God says its bad then its bad! I think people have the right to frown upon something that God says they can!

 

[Oz]

OK guys, this thread is starting to turn into a slanging match between members.

This thread is supposed to be a frank discussion on the 'original' question asked, everybody is entitled to their opinion, whether you agree with it or not, and they should not be frowned upon because of it.

Can you please keep your responses civil. 🙂

 

[Powerful wicka]

Angel: Thankyou, there shouldnt be any frowing apon homosxuality

@ Vampyr:Thats not fair, hes like the big leader of the gang. if he doesnt want someone in the group will you still stand by them, or will you follow the rest of the croud? I just dont think ANYONE should be treated that way, im sorry if im offending you but thats just the way i feel about this matter.

-Jack

 

[Jules]

The God I believe in doesn't condemn people for being the way they are, whether they chose to be that way or not (I'm saying that because some people believe gay people chose to be that way). The Bible preaches about a lot of things, but the main one for me is forgivness (I'm not saying that gay people are doing anything wrong, or that they need forgiving, I'm saying this to prove a point) If you interpret the Bible to say that God is saying that to be gay is a sin why would he not offer them forgiveness.

I do not think that being gay is a sin

I'm explaining this really badly I know, but I can't see God condemning a gay person to hell because their gay. I hardly think that ranks up there with killing people. If you go by what the Bible says, to the very extreme, then heaven is going to be a very empty place. Going by the Bible, I am unfortunately, on my way to hell. I've had sex before marrage, I use the Lords name in vain and I'm sure there are a few others that I can't think of right now.

If your Christian (which I am) then you believe that God made everyone. He made gay people. The God I believe in isn't that cruel to make someone the way they are and then say it is a sin. God wants peace in the world, so why would he put restrictions on love. If being gay was a hateful thing then yeah, I could say its wrong, but its not, its another example of love. So, I don't see why gay people should not be allowed to get married in a church.

 

[Tamuril_Taralom]

Wow Jman, I'm REALLY starting to like you! 😉

 

[Jman82188]

Haha, thanks, Tamuril Taralom. I was starting to think that no one got what I was trying to say.

And Jules, REALLY good points, I couldn't have said it better myself!

 

[Tamuril_Taralom]

No problem!

And Jules, I really like how you brought the whole 'forgivness' aspect into this...a lot of God's preachings contradict eachother, like the whole 'Woe to those who laugh for you shall grieve for all eternity' and then he says that all who follow him will be blessed, making them happy. so...if you are a good person and are happy, you will go to hell??? This doesn't make sense...and if he made this mistake, who knows what else he might have done wrong? you can't believe everything he says.

do you get what i'm saying?

 

[Vicious]

Vampyr, when I admitted I was making fun of you, that was in my own strange way a form of apology...I was trying to convey that I was wrong for doing so...so please don't spit it back in my face.

Look...my basis of argument is this...if you don't want gays to be allowed to have "religious matrimonial ceremonies"....than I completely agree. Because I don't think you should have to change an entire religion just because of popular ideas or beliefs...Just as I think Robinson should not have been elected in the Episcopal church...
Because any form of sexual contact that cannot or will not lead to the conception of a child is deemed "sinful" by both Catholics and Protestants....now I personally and morally do not agree with this...however I do not believe that a two thousand year old belief system should be forced to change now.

HOWEVER, you still have not provided a reasonable oppostition to the Legal Marriage of same-sex couples under the law.
Seperation of Chruch and State.
The Church, it's members, and it's beliefs, should not have the right to infringe on others of those living in the same country.
That is my issue here.
I believe you have the right to deny religious ceremonies to gays and lesbians. But I don't see your basis of argument for not allowing them to have a legal marriage under the Law.

You(and I mean Christians "in general"), say you are not trying to impose your beliefs on others, but then why does it "seem" like you are always trying to legislate your beliefs.
Beliefs are to be upheld and followed...not Legislated...

My two cents has been thrown into the coffer.
-Vicious
P.L.U.R.
PeaceLoveUnityRespect

 

[Hitome]

Vampyr, what are your feelings about priests and Rabbis who marry gay people in the US now? The people they marry are married under God but not under the law. I'm not a Christian as I said before and am not very familiar with Chritianity. When you argue that marriage is only a Christian ceremony it is very disrespectful of other religons that have been marrying people for as long as or in many cases longer than Christianity. I understand that you have very strong beliefs, but the point of religion is personal communion with the divine not controlling other people's behavior. That is why we have a seperation of Church and State in America.

 

[Hero]

My church has a few gay members in it. I'm trying to understand the whole religious part of this thing, but now I'm getting confused because there are so many LONG posts.

 

[Vampyr]

OK I am only going to answer to people who make sense from now on cause its giving me a headache trying to read all these posts, especially ones that I just look at an laugh at. So here goes again *sigh*

If you interpret the Bible to say that God is saying that to be gay is a sin why would he not offer them forgiveness.

He does offer them forgiveness, he offers everyone forgiveness no matter what there sin is.. but that has nothing to do with Gay Marriage.

The God I believe in isn't that cruel to make someone the way they are and then say it is a sin........If being gay was a hateful thing then yeah, I could say its wrong, but its not, its another example of love. So, I don't see why gay people should not be allowed to get married in a church.

Does no one understand the concept of Choice? God made us, he then gave us choice.. he didnt want a world full of robots who would follow his every command, then there would be no love in the world whatsoever! Choice means that people choose to Love God, are not forced to love God. But with choice came sin.. God did not make Homosexuality, humans did! Once he found out about Homosexuality he condemned the act of it because it was unnatural.
Gay people should not be allowed to marry in a church BECAUSE its a sin! Its like swearing during prayers or having sex on the alter! Ya know! I dont get how.. ah dont worry, I'm getting mighty sick of explaining it!

Vampyr, when I admitted I was making fun of you, that was in my own strange way a form of apology...I was trying to convey that I was wrong for doing so...so please don't spit it back in my face.

Next time try just saying a simple 'sorry' and then maybe I will understand that you are appologising?! Appology accepted btw ::change::

I believe you have the right to deny religious ceremonies to gays and lesbians. But I don't see your basis of argument for not allowing them to have a legal marriage under the Law.

Then we agree. I have been saying that all along. Why are Gay couples so intent on having a religious Marriage when they can get a Legal Binding and not have to do it under the church? Saves alot of fuss doesnt it! If you missed that in my argument I suggest you go back and read over it 🙂

You(and I mean Christians "in general"), say you are not trying to impose your beliefs on others, but then why does it "seem" like you are always trying to legislate your beliefs.

Legislate my beliefs? Does that make sense? How and when am I trying to make my beliefs the law?

Vampyr, what are your feelings about priests and Rabbis who marry gay people in the US now? The people they marry are married under God but not under the law.

Thats worse! Why on earth would a Rabbi/Priest marry a person under god and not under the law when they should know that God is not going to accept the marriage? I am now mightily confused about the USA's intentions... crazy crazy!

When you argue that marriage is only a Christian ceremony it is very disrespectful of other religons that have been marrying people for as long as or in many cases longer than Christianity.

Quote me! Marriage is NOT only a christian ceremony.. its a RELIGIOUS ceremony. If ever I said it was only a christian ceremony then I meant to say religious. I would never purposely say that.

That is why we have a seperation of Chruch and State in America.

hahaha! Sorry, thought that was funny 'Chruch' lol, as in Crotch? hehe..
I'm pretty sure The USA isnt the only country with separation of Church and State.. most Western Civilisations do!

Where are the other people who voted no? I'm having to do all the work here! lol.

BTW everyone, this is just a debate, nothing said in here is taken to heart outside of this thread, so even though most of you disagree with me and I disagree with you, it doesnt mean we need to hate each other. Its just a healthy debate, i still love you all no matter what you say to me 😀 *including you jack, lol*
Our differences in opinion will not shape my feelings for you all and I hope you will give the same courtesies to me 🙂 (I'm speaking from experience here, a 'War on Iraq' thread at another boards, a person thought I hated them because of our differences in opinions..) But nope, I am just an avid debater 😀

 

[Vicious]

Heh heh...Cruch...speration of Cruch and State..this will be a new law taking effect NOW!
p:

But Vampyr, marriage is not JUST a religious ceremony. There are people who are married that are not the least bit religious.
That is not a Legal Binding, it is still called a Marriage. When people get married by a judge or even a sea captian(they have the right to marry people in international waters, and it is legal) it has nothing to do with any religion. But under the Law they are married. That is what, we, or more correctly I, are/am trying to say.
There are Legal Marriages that are not a religious ceremony.
And Hitome has a point, there are many religions that have been around longer than Christianity, and they marry people as well.

PS. I never say, "I'm sorry", as I am physcially incapable of doing so, the best I can do is elude to the fact🙂

Well, obviously, denying the Legal marriage of two people whom you disagree with their lifestyle according to your religious beliefs, that is legislating your beliefs. Trying to put prayer back in school is legislating your beliefs. I would say Abortion, but that is much much more than a religious issue.
And I didn't mean you specifically, Vampyr, I meant your religion as an Institution.

 

[Jman82188]

Does no one understand the concept of Choice? God made us, he then gave us choice.. he didnt want a world full of robots who would follow his every command, then there would be no love in the world whatsoever! Choice means that people choose to Love God, are not forced to love God. But with choice came sin.. God did not make Homosexuality, humans did! Once he found out about Homosexuality he condemned the act of it because it was unnatural.

Not forced to love god? I think saying that people will burn for an eternity in hell is pretty forceful, dont you? And I disagree again with the fact that humans made homosexuality. Again, it's not like people just woke up one day and thought "hmm...i think i'll feel this way about people of my sex". It's something that was already in them. Therefore, by the reasoning of creationism, must have been made by god as well. And what exactly is so unnatural about it? As I believe someone said before, It's just another expression of love.

Legislate my beliefs? Does that make sense? How and when am I trying to make my beliefs the law?

I don't think they meant it in the literal sence. Just in the fact that you are trying to say that NO gays should get married because you BELIEVE it's a sin based on your (ONE of many keep in mind) religion. Not all religions are based on the bible, and not all religions condemn homosexuality. If you were gay and decided not to get married religiously because its a sin, that's fine. But when you say that no one else should be allowed to, just because YOU believe so, that is legislating your beliefs. What if they don't feel the same way?

Thats worse! Why on earth would a Rabbi/Priest marry a person under god and not under the law when they should know that God is not going to accept the marriage? I am now mightily confused about the USA's intentions... crazy crazy!

Maybe because they believe in something different than you! Not every Christian has the same view on this issue and it is very possible for people to have different opinions. It's not like the bible isn't a little foggy about some things.

Quote me! Marriage is NOT only a christian ceremony.. its a RELIGIOUS ceremony. If ever I said it was only a christian ceremony then I meant to say religious. I would never purposely say that.

So if you're saying that Marriage is a religious ceromony and that's why gays shouldn't be allowed to get married religiously, then that doesn't make sence either because as I said before, not ALL religions believe that homosexuality is a sin, so why can't people of those religions have a religious marriage?

I'm pretty sure The USA isnt the only country with separation of Church and State.. most Western Civilisations do!

No, it's probably not, but I don't see the significance of that. The point is, why should people who want to get married legally (not legally binded, but married, just non-religiously be not allowed to do it because of the Church. Separation of Church and State. A non-religious marriage really has nothing to do with the church and frankly, they should just mind their own business!

 

[Vicious]

Wow, Jman, you phrased and stated that way better than me!
You're my articulate hero of the day!

Jack from Will & Grace

Jack: Heterosexual marriage is just wrong. I mean, if God had meant men and women to be together, he would have given them both penises.

LOL!

 

[Powerful wicka]

Well said Jman. And i like what you said about being forced....I mean its like your gonna feel pain forever because you dont like me or belive me, i think that is being pretty forceful and wanting vengance.Another thing, i want to know why you think its ok to frown upon gay people, and i noticed you did'nt answer my question...

 

[Frenchy Faith]

First Vampyr, let me tell you that even tho I disagree with you, I liked the end of your last comment. It's good to see that ppl can debate without hating each other for having different opinions, for what you said, I respect you, lol, & I enjoy debate as well 😛

Vampyr :
God did not make Homosexuality, humans did! Once he found out about Homosexuality he condemned the act of it because it was unnatural.

Ok, how comes that humans did homosexuality?
Hello but look around you, what about animals? Homosexuality does exist for them. So, since animals are guided by their instincts, which come from nature, can you say that homosexuality isn't something natural? Monkey, which are said to be close to men have homo sexuality.
& again, homosexuality does exist since so long, & be4 it wasn't banned like it is today.
I'm going to sound like in the book the Vampire Lestat but it's coz I do think that there is in this book matter to think & ponder. With old greek, & their religion at that time, homosexuality wasn't a sin. Their civilization & religion lasted for age, more than 3000 years & they were sure that be right about their gods.
So so far I I'm not mistaking, christian religion is like 2000 years old? How can you say that your religion is the right one? Of course, if you are a believer, it cannot be explain really, it's more like you believe because something in your heart tell you to do so. I'm absolutely not saying anything against it, I myself didn't make my mind about religion, so I can't say. But I think that you can't condemn some ppl, for instance gay ppl because of what God has been said to have said (not sure this sentence was very english).
What I mean is that it's not God who has made the religious law, but men. Men with their biased look on things, men with their flaw & sin. Even tho they were saint, they were still men, so how can you give all credit to what they said just because they said that God told them?
Plus, it's kinda odd coz if you look close at the bible, some things are the contrary of each other. & ppl misunderstand most of it. Like how can they respect the "don't hate each other" & meanwhile hating gay because gay is a sin?
On another hand, it's true that gay shouldn't marry in church if being gay is a sin for church, but it's hard coz some ppl cannot live without religion, & if they are gay, they didn't decided to be so, so what is fair in all of this?
It's like this theory, which says that God choosed the best world he could create, but can't control anything in it since it's all planed. He choosed the less worse world, but in this one, there still was sin. It's as if Judas was bound to betray Jesus, as if some thing couldn't be avoided, & so, as if some ppl was bound to be gay. If they can't do anything against it, why condemn it, & why is it said that it's a sin? but it's all about destiny, & a lil off the topic.
It's kinda confused what I say, & I'm not sure i make clear what I meant.
To make it short, I got nothing against religion, but since one can prove that God really exist, nor that he doesn't exist, I think that religion must keep private & laws made without any religion connection. That's why legal marriage between gay should be allowed, & that's why religious marriage between gay (& I kinda meet your opinion on this point Vampyr) isn't allowed. Just that church should read again text & ponder about the different interpretations, & maybe consider again the interpretation of text about gay.

Soz if it was long & soz for my bad english, hope it's still understandable.

 

[Vicious]

Well said, well said, Frenchy Faith....
And I agree with both you and Vampyr...that it shouldn't be allowed by a relgious establishment that doesn't agree with it...however I think religious mandate should have no effects on Legal policy....

~huggles vampyr~