Gender Roles
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This Year's Girl
Grateful grapefruit
I don't think there should be defined gender roles. People should be able to be however they want. Having to act a certain way just because you have a penis or a vagina between your legs is really restricting.
L
Living Dead Boy
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zobothehobo
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kittenpoker
<3 this!
ItMustBeBunnies
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Little Miss Muffet
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Besides the biological imperative that women are the ones who have to bear children, no I don't think that there should be defined roles in life, the workplace or a relationship based on gender alone. If a woman is capable of doing something that is traditionally thought of as a male dominated role then they can and should fulfill that role. Likewise if a man is capable of doing something that is considered traiditonally female-oriented then go for it, dude!
Can you tell I was raised by my mother who used to put flowers in the end of soldiers' guns at anti-war demonstrations/ 😀
Can you tell I was raised by my mother who used to put flowers in the end of soldiers' guns at anti-war demonstrations/ 😀
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kittenpoker
awww! I love your mom!
brinkster130
Riley's BFF
I think some gender roles are very problematic and can cause a lot of damage. They tend to generalize each sex and make the assumption that their wants and capabilities are all the same. Men and women should be able to freely express who they are, and should be encouraged to be involved in things they are genuinely interested in or passionate about rather than being pressured to do what society has deemed appropriate for their sex.
There are some aspects of the stereotypical female gender role that I fit into; I tend to be quiet, nurturing, and sympathetic. One the other hand there are aspects I have that break those stereotypes; especially my competitive side.
I do think age is a major factor when it comes to gender roles. IMO, most of the gender roles we learn come from the adults we are around growing up. Each generation seems to have a slightly different take of what those roles should be, so it makes since that the time in which you were raised and taught would be extremely influential on your perception and beliefs about gender roles.
There are some aspects of the stereotypical female gender role that I fit into; I tend to be quiet, nurturing, and sympathetic. One the other hand there are aspects I have that break those stereotypes; especially my competitive side.
I do think age is a major factor when it comes to gender roles. IMO, most of the gender roles we learn come from the adults we are around growing up. Each generation seems to have a slightly different take of what those roles should be, so it makes since that the time in which you were raised and taught would be extremely influential on your perception and beliefs about gender roles.
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I don't think there should be any specific gender roles, I more or less agree with everything that Brinkster said... however, I do think it's important to still recognize that there are different genders/sexes.
Mainly there is just different people, it's not your gender that makes you who you are, but I don't think gender can completely be overlooked either, especially in the case of children, for whom gender tends to be merely biological not necessarily an identity in and of itself... that later part is learned behavior IMO and all children should be thought to be who they are, even if it goes against the gender stereotypes.
(which is why I'm completely against e.g. the new Swedish word invented to be used instead of him or her, it's simply meant to be gender neutral, frankly I think it's silly and when it comes to using it in schools with young children I think it's only likely to cause a gender confusion
If you can't teach equality while still using 'him' and 'her' then I think we're a sorry lot indeed. I don't think a new word will change the world or the way people look at each other.)
Mainly there is just different people, it's not your gender that makes you who you are, but I don't think gender can completely be overlooked either, especially in the case of children, for whom gender tends to be merely biological not necessarily an identity in and of itself... that later part is learned behavior IMO and all children should be thought to be who they are, even if it goes against the gender stereotypes.
(which is why I'm completely against e.g. the new Swedish word invented to be used instead of him or her, it's simply meant to be gender neutral, frankly I think it's silly and when it comes to using it in schools with young children I think it's only likely to cause a gender confusion
If you can't teach equality while still using 'him' and 'her' then I think we're a sorry lot indeed. I don't think a new word will change the world or the way people look at each other.)
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Bluebird
two by two, hands of blue
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No, I don't think there should be defined gender roles. A lot of it is very detrimental to relationships between the genders. For example, the way some men in relationships will put the woman on a pedestal, as if being a woman is akin to an alien race. We're all just human beings when it comes down to it, with very slightly different hormones. I am the least girly girl I know - I talk bluntly and honestly, I walk like a guy (when I'm not in heels), generally just wear what's comfortable to me, and I have quite an androgynous look.
Women seem to be a lot more under pressure than guys. The general idea from our TV society, that guys can be themselves - wear what they want, fart when they want etc and women must preen and present themselves perfectly every day or they're a freak of nature. TV/films and our society makes out that if you're not the cute giggling make-up wearing girl, then you're unattractive. But I've never had a problem attracting the opposite sex. (sw) So it's ridiculous.
Of course, there are other ways in which defined gender roles are a bad thing, not just in relationships, but it's something I've noticed a lot.
This Year's Girl
Grateful grapefruit
that word is supposed to be used as a complement to him and her though. 🙂 It isn't supposed to replace it. Noone is saying that you can't say that you're a woman/man if you feel like one, but I think it's just as important to respect that some people feel like neither and they need a pronoune too. It can also be useful when it comes to talking about someone you don't know the gender of.
---------- Post added at 08:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:57 PM ----------
I'm don't mean to take this discussion of topic. I think talking about a gender neutral word for him/her is in line with the subject of this thread. But let me know if you don't agree and I'll start an own thread or something. 🙂 with that said. 🙂
[MENTION=9799]Taake[/MENTION] how do you feel it sets equality back to have a gender neutral word? (note: I'm not saying this in a angry voice, I am curious about your opinion) I look at it like this: all people in the world does not identify themselves as male or female. For them to have a word too is great, not silly at all. Both male and female can be very restricting words (because of The gender roles that exist), a gender neutral word can help us widen the perspective of what it means to be a human.
---------- Post added at 08:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:57 PM ----------
I'm don't mean to take this discussion of topic. I think talking about a gender neutral word for him/her is in line with the subject of this thread. But let me know if you don't agree and I'll start an own thread or something. 🙂 with that said. 🙂
[MENTION=9799]Taake[/MENTION] how do you feel it sets equality back to have a gender neutral word? (note: I'm not saying this in a angry voice, I am curious about your opinion) I look at it like this: all people in the world does not identify themselves as male or female. For them to have a word too is great, not silly at all. Both male and female can be very restricting words (because of The gender roles that exist), a gender neutral word can help us widen the perspective of what it means to be a human.
sisterofmercy
Ray of Sunshine..
I don't think gender roles do much for the notion of equality as it does help to create the impression that people should be confined to these roles and that if you don't conform to the stereotype then somehow you're a lesser man/woman.
The focus should be on being true to yourself, regardless of what gender your actions are apparently tied to by the culture you live in.
The focus should be on being true to yourself, regardless of what gender your actions are apparently tied to by the culture you live in.
I agree with mostly everything in this thread. I think there are obvious gender differences between the sexes and we shouldn't ignore them but I don't think we should force them either. I see no problem with a man wanting to wear a dress and put on some makeup or a woman wanting to wear mens clothing. I think if anything it would help move society forward more creatively.
Since we were little kids most of us were probably taught that boys don't cry and girls don't play in the dirt. I think it's that idea/philosophy that makes communication and understanding between the two sexes so difficult. We are at times almost forced to be as different from one and another when in actuality I think we are more of the same.
Since we were little kids most of us were probably taught that boys don't cry and girls don't play in the dirt. I think it's that idea/philosophy that makes communication and understanding between the two sexes so difficult. We are at times almost forced to be as different from one and another when in actuality I think we are more of the same.
By saying that we need a "gender neutral" word to eliminate negative gender roles to me does nothing but affirm those negative gender roles because you yourself are implying that your gender and sex are the same thing.
There are different sexes, there are differences between male and female.
Gender "roles" however are the attributes/qualities we apply to those sexes which is where the harm comes from. But eliminating or as you say merely reducing the use of him/her infavor of a gender neutral word achieves nothing to me, it's just like putting a band-aid over what we think is a problem with the gender roles, it does noting to reduce the negativity attached to the male/female gender roles. That is what needs to be worked at, the right for someone of either sex to behave as they want without being forced into either a gender role or an undefine white field of confusion. Let kids be kids and teach them to value human beings as individuals, regardless of sex, but why you couldn't do that while still using the words to specify the biological sex, is beyong me.
Sorry if it sounds like I'm jumping on you, I'm not, just trying to explain.
Bluebird
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This Year's Girl
But it is a complement, not a replacement. It is giving kids more options, not less
SlayerFest
Wiley Dairy Gnome
Gender roles suck. I mean, people should do what they want because they choose to/want to do it, not because they feel as if they should. My grandma keeps trying to teach me how to cook and I just don't like cooking, grr! She's convinced that I should because I'm a girl. Yeah, no thanks grandma.
In my house, everything is pretty equal. My mom bakes an apple pie for special occasions and she makes pancakes, so breakfast/dessert is her speciality, and my dad cooks dinner. Sometimes they cook together but...my dad is so much better at it haha. My mom cleans sometimes, and so does my dad. I didn't grow up in a household where the mom stays at home all day. My dad is the stay at home parent because he works at night. Things are equal in my house and they should be equal throughout the wooorld!! (pretend I sang that)
And no, I don't think that I fit any stereotype. I'm girly sometimes, for instance, I'm wearing a lace dress right now with lace tights. However...I like video games and semi-violent movies sooo yeah. I can't imagine not liking something or refusing to give it chance because it isn't "girly" enough. I have known girls like that. They scare me.
There are clearly differences between men and women. They shouldn't be ignored. I just don't believe in things like..."pink is a girl color" or that blue is for boys only. My cousin's son loves pink. I just can't imagine not letting my kid wear their favorite color or own things of said color solely because it isn't "meant for them". I also don't believe that women should cook and clean solely because they are a woman, and men shouldn't have to do all of the yard work. I mean if a woman likes to cook and do housework, then so be it, but she shouldn't feel compelled to because she is a woman.
In my house, everything is pretty equal. My mom bakes an apple pie for special occasions and she makes pancakes, so breakfast/dessert is her speciality, and my dad cooks dinner. Sometimes they cook together but...my dad is so much better at it haha. My mom cleans sometimes, and so does my dad. I didn't grow up in a household where the mom stays at home all day. My dad is the stay at home parent because he works at night. Things are equal in my house and they should be equal throughout the wooorld!! (pretend I sang that)
And no, I don't think that I fit any stereotype. I'm girly sometimes, for instance, I'm wearing a lace dress right now with lace tights. However...I like video games and semi-violent movies sooo yeah. I can't imagine not liking something or refusing to give it chance because it isn't "girly" enough. I have known girls like that. They scare me.
There are clearly differences between men and women. They shouldn't be ignored. I just don't believe in things like..."pink is a girl color" or that blue is for boys only. My cousin's son loves pink. I just can't imagine not letting my kid wear their favorite color or own things of said color solely because it isn't "meant for them". I also don't believe that women should cook and clean solely because they are a woman, and men shouldn't have to do all of the yard work. I mean if a woman likes to cook and do housework, then so be it, but she shouldn't feel compelled to because she is a woman.
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This Year's Girl
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Little Miss Muffet
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This Year's Girl
Grateful grapefruit
[MENTION=9799]Taake[/MENTION] I'm not sure I'm following your reasoning. Let me know if I misunderstood you. 🙂 I don't believe that gender and sex are the same thing. But gender roles and sex are very difficult to seperate because the very basis of gender roles are that the roles are natural, that it SHOULD be a certain way for girls and another for boys. The words go together in discussions because of that, even if I don't think it should be that way. 🙂 It is my opinion that the introduction of a gender neutral word can reveal the roles to be socially constructed, because it is pointing to that not all people even identify themselves as male or female. Just having the 2 sexes can be very limiting, not only because of the gender roles that are inscribed on you but because as I said, some people are neither. They shouldn't be forced to be something they don't feel comfortable with. Having a gender neutral word for them is adding to equality I think. 🙂
I agree with Taake, we don't have to pretend to be blind to biology to treat someone equally, that's going over the top and does more harm than good.
'Gender roles' will always exist, as one of the reasons why this looks like it's not going to change is that as of yet, men haven't figured out how to have babies.
But on the humorous side, you gals must recognise that-
NOTHING CAN DEFEAT THE PENIS
'Gender roles' will always exist, as one of the reasons why this looks like it's not going to change is that as of yet, men haven't figured out how to have babies.
But on the humorous side, you gals must recognise that-
NOTHING CAN DEFEAT THE PENIS
T
This Year's Girl
And biology have shown that there is more than 2 sexes too. It's not going overboard to want them to have a word too
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prophecygrrl
Transgender men can bear children.
This Year's Girl
Grateful grapefruit
[MENTION=11786]Sweet J[/MENTION] yeah, human is a great word. 🙂 but that's more a complement to female/male, not him and her. 🙂 The neutral word in swedish is "hen" and is a complement to him and her. 🙂 but that's not easy for you to know, so I understand your reaction. 🙂
Isn't 'him' and 'her' already commonly replaced in discourse with 'them' and 'their'?
I Suppose not in Swedish?
'Hen', in english makes that sound like an insult to both genders😱
'Hen' is a female chicken, males being 'cocks', which is pretty funny considering the nature of our discussion.😎
kittenpoker
Raising penguins in Guam
I don't think there *should* be gender roles.... We - as human beings - seem to really like our labels and boxes but problem is most of us don't fit into the box society seems to want to put us in - and that's a good thing. 🙂 (I strongly believe)
But I think about this often - and I think - if I were exactly the same way I am now - only male, my life look a lot different and would be a lot harder.... I'm very timid and fearful and insecure and I think these things are more tolerated from women than men, sadly. Stupid small example, but I don't play sports cause I'm afraid of the ball (*blush*) I think that kind of thing would be less "ok" with people if I were a guy.
But I think about this often - and I think - if I were exactly the same way I am now - only male, my life look a lot different and would be a lot harder.... I'm very timid and fearful and insecure and I think these things are more tolerated from women than men, sadly. Stupid small example, but I don't play sports cause I'm afraid of the ball (*blush*) I think that kind of thing would be less "ok" with people if I were a guy.
I think gender roles matter a bit too much and stereotypes linked to gender still exist in mass, sometimes even amongst the gender affected by the stereotype.
And I talk about what I've lived/observed.
When I was younger, I had very short hair, and one day a guy beat me up to make me say that I was a dude because I had short hair. My sister also had short hair and she often had people coming to make fun of her, saying "Excuse me, are you a girl or a guy, cause we really can't tell". When I took box classes because I thought it was awesome, I had people telling me "You are doing box? That's not a girl thing to do. Why didn't you pick dance?"
Those are cases of being told "You are not doing what your gender is supposed to be doing".
But there is also a tendency that tends to criticize you if you "conform too much to your gender stereotype". And I think that's somehow even worse. I know girls who tends to say things like "I don't think I'd get along with her, she's too much of a girly girl" or tend to generally just make remarks about some girls being too 'girly'. And generally, girly is assimilated to 'superficial'. You like shopping and make up a bit too much? You are a (superficial) GIRLY GIRL, shame on you!
I'm sure guys also know that phenomen "If you do that you're not a real man, if you do that you are just what a man is expected to be".
So yeah, like I said in the beginning, this whole gender identification matters more than it should.
You can be a 100% girly girl, you can be 100% tomboy, you can be inbetween, but what does it matter, honestly?
And the cute bonus: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3mTTIoB_oc"]4 years old girl questions toy marketing strategies[/ame]
And I talk about what I've lived/observed.
When I was younger, I had very short hair, and one day a guy beat me up to make me say that I was a dude because I had short hair. My sister also had short hair and she often had people coming to make fun of her, saying "Excuse me, are you a girl or a guy, cause we really can't tell". When I took box classes because I thought it was awesome, I had people telling me "You are doing box? That's not a girl thing to do. Why didn't you pick dance?"
Those are cases of being told "You are not doing what your gender is supposed to be doing".
But there is also a tendency that tends to criticize you if you "conform too much to your gender stereotype". And I think that's somehow even worse. I know girls who tends to say things like "I don't think I'd get along with her, she's too much of a girly girl" or tend to generally just make remarks about some girls being too 'girly'. And generally, girly is assimilated to 'superficial'. You like shopping and make up a bit too much? You are a (superficial) GIRLY GIRL, shame on you!
I'm sure guys also know that phenomen "If you do that you're not a real man, if you do that you are just what a man is expected to be".
So yeah, like I said in the beginning, this whole gender identification matters more than it should.
You can be a 100% girly girl, you can be 100% tomboy, you can be inbetween, but what does it matter, honestly?
And the cute bonus: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3mTTIoB_oc"]4 years old girl questions toy marketing strategies[/ame]
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prophecygrrl
aw, she's so cute!
prophecygrrl
The girl in question
Forcing gender roles on people is dumb. 🙂
I believe gender is socially constructed and that sex and gender are different concepts. That said, even though I don't believe gender is a "real", tangible concept, the very real consequences of placing such an emphasis on gender (often manifesting in sexist discrimination, heterosexism, transphobia, etc.) are so, so important to recognize and hopefully counteract.
I've heard about the gender neutral pronoun in Sweden, and I thought it was great. 😀 I admit I have limited knowledge of what the plans for the new word are in Sweden, so I can only speak from my experience. I know a lot of people (particularly in the queer community) who feel that language can exclude and ignore them and prefer to identify with gender neutral pronouns like ey/eir/em, singular they/their, ze/zir, etc. I think it'd be awesome if my country officially recognized those words as gender-neutral pronouns, but that's not likely to happen any time soon. From my perspective, I think recognizing other identities would be a great step towards discrediting harmful gender roles/stereotypes.
I believe gender is socially constructed and that sex and gender are different concepts. That said, even though I don't believe gender is a "real", tangible concept, the very real consequences of placing such an emphasis on gender (often manifesting in sexist discrimination, heterosexism, transphobia, etc.) are so, so important to recognize and hopefully counteract.
I've heard about the gender neutral pronoun in Sweden, and I thought it was great. 😀 I admit I have limited knowledge of what the plans for the new word are in Sweden, so I can only speak from my experience. I know a lot of people (particularly in the queer community) who feel that language can exclude and ignore them and prefer to identify with gender neutral pronouns like ey/eir/em, singular they/their, ze/zir, etc. I think it'd be awesome if my country officially recognized those words as gender-neutral pronouns, but that's not likely to happen any time soon. From my perspective, I think recognizing other identities would be a great step towards discrediting harmful gender roles/stereotypes.
T
This Year's Girl
PREACH :heart:
No. I don't fit in as either genders, I never have. For as long as I can remember people have either mistaken me for a boy or not known at all what I am.
All through school I hade put up with other kids asking me if I was girl or boy, not just kids. I have a very gender neutral look, but I feel more comfortable wearing clothes for men so people still often mistake for me a guy.
About the Swedish word, I think it's great.
All through school I hade put up with other kids asking me if I was girl or boy, not just kids. I have a very gender neutral look, but I feel more comfortable wearing clothes for men so people still often mistake for me a guy.
About the Swedish word, I think it's great.