Get Out.

[GATEGOD]

Exactly, it was a bit like Becoming.

Angelus: Now that's everything, huh? No weapons... No friends... No
hope...Take all that away... and what's left?

Buffy: Me.


Buffy had to trust herslef when no-one else around her did. Thats something she had struggled with for a long time.

No one except the amazing Spike :coolman:

 

[Kean]

As per Keonite's request, here's the info for that fanfic:

"Affinity" by Ginmar at All About Spike. The first half is amazingly good and insightful (if a little mechanically shaky), but the second half, after Spike comes back from L.A., kind of falls apart. Luckily, all the good stuff is in that first half, including the insights into Buffy's relationships with everyone.

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!🙂

Edit:

No one except the amazing Spike :coolman:

yes at the end of S7 I think she could felt she could finally trust him because he believed in her and because he wanted in her knickers!

Edit:

Ok AV I didn't want to make it into Spike v. Angel but you took it there so....Buffy asked Angel to stand back, he was more than willing to kick preacher ass but she said it was something she needed to do, so he obeyed her wishes and enjoyed the view!



BOD...exactly..Buffy had a point to prove to herself, personally I think she imagined caleb as the Scoobies but its just a pet theory!🙂

Edit:

Ok true point but Spike WAS there and he wasn't exactly jumping out to save the day (which by the way he wasn't needed for)...Ok I have a question for ya...You are basically saying Spike is better than Angel cuz he would have jumped in and helped Buffy BUT if Angel had done that I have more than feeling that you would be saying that he was making choices for her again! So I have to ask...why do you have such a problem with Angel...Is it just an irrational hatred cuz you are an Uber-Spuffy or is it something else? You can answer this in a more suitable thread if you want, just was curious.

 

[white avenger]

Of course I'm an "uber Spuffy fan." I've never pretended not to be (In my humble opinion, anybody who isn't puts the ice cream on top of the chocolate syrup and doesn't have their nuts in the right place, either).

As for Spike joining in the fight with Caleb, he might have been about to do that very thing when Ol' Broody stepped in. Given his uncertainty about Buffy's true feelings for himself, he might have just decided not to make a bad situation worse by forcing a confrontation with Angel at that time (remember, he hadn't been chosen as Buffy's Champion at that time) as opposed to his statement upon appearing later in Angel's office, "You can't keep me away from her!"

 

[Kean]

Of course I'm an "uber Spuffy fan." I've never pretended not to be (In my humble opinion, anybody who isn't puts the ice cream on top of the chocolate syrup and doesn't have their nuts in the right place, either).

As for Spike joining in the fight with Caleb, he might have been about to do that very thing when Ol' Broody stepped in. Given his uncertainty about Buffy's true feelings for himself, he might have just decided not to make a bad situation worse by forcing a confrontation with Angel at that time (remember, he hadn't been chosen as Buffy's Champion at that time) as opposed to his statement upon appearing later in Angel's office, "You can't keep me away from her!"

I know you haven't thats why I said it!!!:lmao: as you have probably guessed I'm an uber Bangel fan!!🙂 thats why I was curious, cuz I can appreciate Spike for who he was without getting all psycho 'ship about it, was just wondering if you could do that with Angel?

and as far as the fight with caleb goes, neither Angel nor Sike had any part in it...he was Buffy's scalp.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

Angel was good for Buffy, Spike was good for Buffy. But only in the time that each of them had a relationship, as Buffy was growing as a person.

What did Buffy get, a scythe and what good was it ? it made killing the Turok-hans easier.
Who did Buffy want to help her in the battle against the first, she took Angels pressie then told him 'to go forth and multiply'. Or was it start a second front, yeh right !. She'd seen what she was up against, would she have wanted the best army possible ?, so why tell Angel to go away ?.

It was Spike that she wanted to help her.

Now it was the amulet that saved the day, Buffy didn't want Angel to be there, she wanted Spike.

Who was with her the longest ? They both had a relationship with her, but then the length of time isn't a contributing factor.

As for the names Bangel.....Spuffy.
With Bangel Buffy has only one letter where-as in Spuffy, Buffy plays a more major part and as I see Buffy to be the contributing factor here Spuffy would have to win.

For me I'd prefer her and Faith but as Buffy said,' we're just good friends really'.

 

[Kean]

Angel was good for Buffy, Spike was good for Buffy. But only in the time that each of them had a relationship, as Buffy was growing as a person.

What did Buffy get, a scythe and what good was it ? it made killing the Turok-hans easier.
Who did Buffy want to help her in the battle against the first, she took Angels pressie then told him 'to go forth and multiply'. Or was it start a second front, yeh right !. She'd seen what she was up against, would she have wanted the best army possible ?, so why tell Angel to go away ?.

It was Spike that she wanted to help her.

Now it was the amulet that saved the day, Buffy didn't want Angel to be there, she wanted Spike.

Who was with her the longest ? They both had a relationship with her, but then the length of time isn't a contributing factor.

As for the names Bangel.....Spuffy.
With Bangel Buffy has only one letter where-as in Spuffy, Buffy plays a more major part and as I see Buffy to be the contributing factor here Spuffy would have to win.

For me I'd prefer her and Faith but as Buffy said,' we're just good friends really'.

My own take on the amulet was that she knew whoever wore wouldn't make it and well, she saw Spike as more expendable!!! Ok come on White Avenger...Flame me!!!!:lmao:

 

[sosa lola]

Not to mention the fact that she was right... they needed to go back in.

She was right that there was something there, but the plan WAS crazy, what if The First and Caleb were preparing something waiting for Buffy and the others? Then all of them will be crawling away like they had done in Dirty Girls, they needed a better plan.

When Caleb and The First were busy laughing at Faith falling into the trap, Buffy was able to seize the moment and sneak in to take the scythe.

 

[Kean]

She was right that there was something there, but the plan WAS crazy, what if The First and Caleb were preparing something waiting for Buffy and the others? Then all of them will be crawling away like they had done in Dirty Girls, they needed a better plan.

When Caleb and The First were busy laughing at Faith falling into the trap, Buffy was able to seize the moment and sneak in to take the scythe.

Nearly all of Buffy's plans were crazy...saving the world rarely has a failsafe plan! Yeah it was crazy but not humous crazy!!

 

[TabulaRasa]

I think it was rediculous. I stood behind Buffy the whole time. She's a warrior, she had to be. She knew what had to be done. She made a mistake with taking the girls where she did without doing a little more work ahead of time. But she was tired, and she was running out of time. They all were. She ended up taking them to the right place. She just didn't know that Caleb was super strong. And cute.
I think they did wrong. I don't think she should have been kicked out. I think Dawn as a sister, after Buffy saved her life should have stood beside her decision. Dawn was upset because Buffy was busy with the potentials and not her. I think she was just mad.
I was very upset with everyone but Spike should have punched Giles, Willow, Wood, Anya, Xander and Dawn in the face and not Faith. She never told Buffy to leave. And I really don't think she wanted her to. Oh and I would not have minded Spike punching half the potentials including Kennedy and Rona. We lost a couple great potentials - turned slayers at the end ie, Amanda yet we keep Rona? Pure crap...anyways, it was stupid for Buffy to have to leave and I will forever be upset at the gang for that.

 

[Kana]

I'm pretty much going to back a Sosa on this as I've tried to look at it from all angles (well all the angles I like).

Like her, I'm pretty much going to post what I've posted on other forums on this, sorry if it steps on anyone else's point.

Now lets look at all the characters and their reactions.

Willow and Xander

We have to understand this isn't the first time Willow has questioned Buffy's actions but never has the consequence been so grave. Xander in the earlier episode was talking about trusting Buffy because she's earned it and I believe this is true.Buffy greatest strengths has been her instinct and compassion, yet she leads them to die in Dirty Girls. Xander is really struggling to see Buffy's point because she's just contradicted what he said with her actions and wants to go again. The reason Buffy has been trusted this far because she's always got them through safely so they never had any reason to doubt her but now she wants to lead them to a place where some of them were killed and poor Xander was badly hurt ( a miracle he wasn't killed actually) and it surprises me that people can't see their perspective.

Giles

As for Giles, he was doubting Buffy's judgment anyway. Although I don't agree with his duplicity in LMPTM, it doesn't mean that he was necessarily in the wrong. The whole Spike thing was a judgement call and while it was Buffy's call, it doesn't make it the right call. If Spike had been left alone and the trigger was still activated then I'd agree with Wood (his revenge was actually arguabley irrelevent to the utilitarian argument when you analyse it logically) that Spike could have been a threat. Giles mistrust of Buffy's judgement is not coming out of the blue and lest we forget Glory/Ben.

Dawn

Dawn is surprising I think. Also think about CWDP. FE said Buffy wont choose you. Also Buffy said that if she had to choose between the world and Dawn, she'd choose the world in LMPTM. While Dawn didn't hear this, Buffy's attitude in terms of what wanting to take the offensive after people have been hurt and killed wouldn't allay Dawn's fears that she may put herself and others in danger. She's worried but she's not angry with Buffy because she defends her to Rona. She and Faith are perhaps the most sympathetic to Buffy and have proven it's not jealousy but circumstances which are motivating their actions. I mention jealousy because both of them have been jealous of Buffy at some point.

In conclusion, this was an extreme circumstance and I think the First was the main reason behind it: Divide and conquer and for a while it worked. Look at all the factors, secret messages, Spike, questions of authority and leadership and of course Eve!! Of course these concepts don't arise in a vacuum but I still believe the main reason is the mistrust of Buffy's ability to get them through this alive rather than personal issues.

Like I said, the FE were actually alot more clever than I gave them credit for originally and I think they are the main reason for the 'mutiny'. They used Buffy's greatest skill, her intuition, against her which made people wonder if they can trust her judgement which previously they relied on without any price really being paid. It was actually a pretty decent plan because on the one hand Buffy may have decided that it wasn't a good idea to go back, FE win again but Buffy's instinct were right but people were scared to trust Buffy's decision to go in again when the last time they got nothing but death and injury. Also the Spike plan was pretty good because if they had killed Spike then they would have lost one of their strongest warriors but on the other hand if Buffy protects him, which she was willing to do then considering that she's made dubious decisions regarding Spike before personally, then there's a chance that could be clouding her judgement in terms of what to do with him. On the third hand (lol) if nothing was done then Wood could have been right and Spike could have been their undoing in this battle. That is why this is one of my favourite episodes (much to others chagrin) because when you analyse it you can actually see how it arose. Pretty clever imo.

 

[BlasterBoy606]

Basically, it pisses me off.

Buffy has saved the scoobies time and time again. They have been best friends for 7 years, and probably for the rest of their lives. They trust each other with their lives. And, this is how the scoobies pay her back? By kicking her out???? Of her house, no less! After this, I lose all respect for the core 4 because they are never really the core 4 anymore. 7.19-7.22 do not show any character love between them. And no make up, no less. I love the Scoobies together prior to this, always will. After this, I don't know.

 

[GATEGOD]

I know they have this great thing for the entire run and then leave you with that.. it's like having a character the entire time and killing them off...you're never going to forget that no matter what, in the end they are dead :cry:

 

[Blondie Bear]

And here's another reason to bitch at Dawn. . . . "It's my house, too." Yeah, uh-huh, and who's been PAYING for the house this whole time, little klepo girl?! Not you! Oh, that would be the big sister you're KICKING OUT! :bite-cha:

 

[Kean]

I know they have this great thing for the entire run and then leave you with that.. it's like having a character the entire time and killing them off...you're never going to forget that no matter what, in the end they are dead :cry:

They tried to pull it back with the scenes in the high school just before they go down to the hellmouth but it just didn't cut it for me.

 

[BlasterBoy606]

They tried to pull it back with the scenes in the high school just before they go down to the hellmouth but it just didn't cut it for me.

I entirely agree. That one scene does not make up for it, and that one scene wasn't all that great either. I think Joss tried, but failed. Just like he did with the whole Season 7 arc 🙁

 

[white avenger]

Flames A'Comin...

My own take on the amulet was that she knew whoever wore wouldn't make it and well, she saw Spike as more expendable!!! Ok come on White Avenger...Flame me!!!!:lmao:

I think you're confusing "expendable" with "formidable." If she knew that the amulet was, as the Brooding One said, "Powerful, highly volatile, meant to be worn by a champion..." or words to that effect, she would obviously want it to be carried by the warrior most likely to get the job done. She sent the second string team leader back to the bush leagues where he belonged.


(Maybe not a real blaze, but I'm feeling more philosophical that belligerent at the moment. Besides, it's more fun thinking that you might be lured into a false sense of security just before I incinerate you. In the meantime, wanna join me for some ice cream? Put the chocolate syrup wherever you want, it's all sweet.)

 

[Kean]

I think someone said it here before but I can't remember who so I'll say it again...there was about 3 seasons worth of mterial crammed into S7 and it just wasn't as good as it could have been,

Edit:

I think you're confusing "expendable" with "formidable." If she knew that the amulet was, as the Brooding One said, "Powerful, highly volatile, meant to be worn by a champion..." or words to that effect, she would obviously want it to be carried by the warrior most likely to get the job done. She sent the second string team leader back to the bush leagues where he belonged.


(Maybe not a real blaze, but I'm feeling more philosophical that belligerent at the moment. Besides, it's more fun thinking that you might be lured into a false sense of security just before I incinerate you. In the meantime, wanna join me for some ice cream? Put the chocolate syrup wherever you want, it's all sweet.)

You may be a Spuffy but I think we're gonna be be buds WA! And I'll have some cookie dough fudge mint-chip while were here!!

By the way I love this line...

Besides, it's more fun thinking that you might be lured into a false sense of security just before I incinerate you

 

[white avenger]

Since this started out as a discussion of the "Great Scooby Mutiny," I would just like to say that that is one of the issues that I feel should be addressed if and when Joss & Co ever decide to fill in the gap between Season 7 and season 8. I'm all for forgive and forget, but, dammit, that little stunt could very well have lost the scythe, the battle, the apocalypse, and every man, woman, and child on the planet. Granted, that moment wasn't the time to drag all of that out, there was a war to fight. Afterwards, though, sometime after Buffy's cryptic smile faded away, there just BEGS to be a scene where our favorite Slayer lays into each and every one of her so called "best friends," and there most certainly should have been large portions of crow served all around, plus quite a lot of bowing and scraping by Giles and Wood for damn near killing the Champion who ultimately saved the day while the original vampire with a soul huddled safely in LA (Feelin' just a little bit warm yet, Miss K?)

 

[Kean]

Please I'm as cold as ice! But I agree, this has to be addressed. It could do with it's own arc as far as I am concerned. Season 7 touched on, and when I say this I mean the most fleeting of touches, alot of issues that were never discussed and in my opinion need to be.

1)Xander lying to her about Angel
2)Will going psycho and no one batting a lid!
3)Giles's abandoment and betrayal of Buffy
4)The fact that none of them really trust each other
5)Most importantly and probaly the most disturbing of all....Buffy boinking Spike! (especially for you WA😉)

 

[BlasterBoy606]

Also, don't forget about Buffy and Dawn! What the hell happened? They were best buddies in Season 7 (minus End of Days/Chosen) and now they want to kill each other and no one trusts Buffy at all! 🙁 Poor Buffy. They're the ones who kicked you out.