Getting a soul - was it worth it?

[EVIL UU]

Was getting a soul worth it for Spike? Simple question but I want you to look at it from a completely selfish perspective - force for good, champion, saved the world - I don't care, OK? Focus on the personal level. Soulless Spike was evil, no doubt about it, but he was also at least content, certainly didn't loathe himself, right? Is the ensouled Spike happier?

What about Spike as a character? Whenever I think of Spike's most iconic, memorable, epic, badass moments, aside from maybe the demon fight in "Get It Done" all I see is the soulless vampire's actions. In my opinion ensouled Spike has never quite reached the sheer intensity and entertainment factor of the soulless Spike. Was giving Spike a soul worth it from an entertainment-value perspective? What do you think?

 

[gite63]

Soulless Spike was evil, no doubt about it, but he was also at least content, certainly didn't loathe himself, right? Is the ensouled Spike happier?

For him – or anyone for that matter – it was easier and more fun to be evil, so I doubt that he will be as happy as he was when he didn't have a soul.

Was giving Spike a soul worth it from an entertainment-value perspective?

I can't see it from the entertaining perspective only, since I'm a fool for redemption stories, and Spike's was/is an amazing one. So for me, it was totally worth.

 

[thetopher]

Yeah, I guess. I don't see that much evidence that having a soul burdens Spike in any real sense. He felt bad for a while, then Buffy took care of him- that's great for Spike.
Spike still gets to act the way he wants, still has the same 'characteristics' (affectations really) and still gets to be around Buffy. That wouldn't be possible without a soul, no way no how. He would probably be dust otherwise.
Any way you look at it getting a soul was his only real option when it came to surviving, unless he never saw Buffy again. He didn't want that because he loved her and thought that she loved him.

And now (finally) he's in a relationship with Buffy! Even though he can't stop whining about it I'm guessing that this is wonderful for Spike. He's finally with her, accepted by the gang because of being around so much. He has more friends now than he ever had before.
Who liked him when he was evil? Drusilla? Angelus maybe, and that's about it. (I'm not counting the fans, that's a given)

Where's the down side to the soul? From a personal perspective it was always non-existent after those first few months.

 

[white avenger]

One of the prevailing arguments is that the Spike who went to Africa to regain his soul ceased to exist, once the soul was installed. If we go with that theory, then the act of regaining his soul amounted to suicide for that version Spike, so, unless that was his motive, either as an act of contrition for his treatment of Buffy in Season 6 and the desire to provide her with an ensoulled Champion, capable of being a worthy partner, and, perhaps, lover, even at the cost of his own identity, I would have to say, probably, not so much.

On the other hand, from what we heard Angelus tell Faith in Season 4 of his series, the soulless vampire doesn't die, he remains within, able to see and feel everything his ensouled counterpart says and does. In that case, given what we know of soulless Spike's voyeuristic leanings, he's probably sitting back and enjoying the show, so, in that case, he's enjoying the hell out of it, just wishing that he had some beer and popcorn to make it perfect. In that case, yes, it was worth it to him.

 

[thetopher]

What about Spike as a character? Whenever I think of Spike's most iconic, memorable, epic, badass moments, aside from maybe the demon fight in "Get It Done" all I see is the soulless vampire's actions. In my opinion ensouled Spike has never quite reached the sheer intensity and entertainment factor of the soulless Spike. Was giving Spike a soul worth it from an entertainment-value perspective? What do you think?

Realized I didn't address this part of the question.

Uh, well he had some good moments on Angel. His fight with Angel himself was pretty badass, his first 'mission' set by 'Doyle', he was the first to volunteer for Angel's 'death by W&H' which was noble of him, and that ending in the alley- although not about soulled Spike himself- he was still there and it was still iconic.

Then again he got beaten up by puppet Angel, used as a punching bag by Illyria, and defeated by Dana the vampire slayer, so it's not like he wasn't the butt of the occasional joke.

On balance I think he was entertaining, but when I think 'iconic' I still think of soulless Spike: Knocking over the Sunnydale sign, Driving along to Gary Oldman's 'My Way', just the entirety of 'In The Dark, his 'kittens' speech to Xander and Willow in 'Doomed'.
I think you're right.

 

[bespangeled]

I just don't see the two as a quick change. Are we talking early season 2 vs season 7 - with no chip in between? I'd say S2 Spike was happier, and S7 was more content and at peace. They each had what they valued.

 

[brinkster130]

I actually think he is happier deep down. Sure, there are parts of himself he hates and wishes he didn't have to face; but I think the soul gives him a sense of importance, meaning and belonging that he never really had before. Like, the fact that he has the potential to be and do something good in the world; be a member of a group (or what's left of the Scoobies, anyway), and be someone who is depended on secretly makes him happy. I think Spike would take the possibility of being needed and wanted with selfloathing over the uselessness he had before even if there wasn't selfloathing.

As far as entertainent goes, I personally didn't think the soul story was a home run. I can see why some people are it up but it never felt genuine to me and it seemed like the less entertaining direction to take the character.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

the uselessness

But wasn't it his ineptitude that made him 'useless' before? And now it's just covered up because he is part of the 'gang.'

In my opinion the soul did not give him "a sense of importance, meaning and belonging" the soul give that to the Scooby Gang. Meaning, they looked at him different, they felt him more important, etc. I don't think Spike changed at all, with or without the soul he was, or was capable of, being the same person. What the soul changed was others perceptions of him. And as their opinion of him grew, so did his self-worth. Spike never stood on his own, he was always reliant on the attitude of the group he was running with at the time. The group, to wit Buffy, needed Spike to have a soul in order for acceptance.

 

[NightLady]

Was getting a soul worth it for Spike? Simple question but I want you to look at it from a completely selfish perspective - force for good, champion, saved the world - I don't care, OK? Focus on the personal level. Soulless Spike was evil, no doubt about it, but he was also at least content, certainly didn't loathe himself, right? Is the ensouled Spike happier?

What about Spike as a character? Whenever I think of Spike's most iconic, memorable, epic, badass moments, aside from maybe the demon fight in "Get It Done" all I see is the soulless vampire's actions. In my opinion ensouled Spike has never quite reached the sheer intensity and entertainment factor of the soulless Spike. Was giving Spike a soul worth it from an entertainment-value perspective? What do you think?

From Spike's pov, I think it was worth it. He was already changing because of Buffy, he wan't anymore the evil carefree badass. He wasn't anymore 'happy', so even if having a soul didn't help in that direction I think that he would say it was worth it.

As a viewer I would have liked to see the full redemption arc of soulless Spike even if I understand why the writer had to go in this direction

And as their opinion of him grew, so did his self-worth. Spike never stood on his own, he was always reliant on the attitude of the group he was running with at the time. The group, to wit Buffy, needed Spike to have a soul in order for acceptance.

I've often read similar observations about Spike, but I don't get it. Most of the things Spike has done were meant to differentiate himself from others, he was always doing the opposite of what others expected or wanted from him. Except for Drusilla first and Buffy after, but that was because he loved them and wanted to be loved back. I don't see Spike as someone who cares for other's opinions or who lacks of self-worth. Actually the contrary.

And I'm thinking this needs a new thread 😀

 

[bespangeled]

But wasn't it his ineptitude that made him 'useless' before? And now it's just covered up because he is part of the 'gang.'.

I don't think Spike changed at all, with or without the soul he was, or was capable of, being the same person.

What ineptitude are we talking about?

And how is it that Spike both never cares about anyone but Buffy but also always cares about everyone's opinion? Lastly, why do you think the soul made no changes at all? Because he was good as an unsouled vamp, bad as a souled vamp, or something in between?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

What ineptitude are we talking about?

St. Vigeous day... the ring thing... any plan that required thinking or patience he botched.

And how is it that Spike both never cares about anyone but Buffy but also always cares about everyone's opinion?

Because the rest was a tough guy facade. You saw that alot when he was with the fanged four.. he always cared people's opinion of him. There are alot of instances where the opinion of the 'crew' he ran with mattered to him.

Lastly, why do you think the soul made no changes at all? Because he was good as an unsouled vamp, bad as a souled vamp, or something in between?

Because, as Joss said, a soul didnt make you good or evil. He made 'good' choices before the soul, and I have no doubt in my mind if he wanted he could have made 'evil' choices with a soul. He was, because the writers needed him to be, a unique vampire in that regard.

 

[bespangeled]

St. Vigeous day... the ring thing... any plan that required thinking or patience he botched.


Because the rest was a tough guy facade. You saw that alot when he was with the fanged four.. he always cared people's opinion of him. There are alot of instances where the opinion of the 'crew' he ran with mattered to him.


Because, as Joss said, a soul didnt make you good or evil. He made 'good' choices before the soul, and I have no doubt in my mind if he wanted he could have made 'evil' choices with a soul. He was, because the writers needed him to be, a unique vampire in that regard.

I figured attacking on Saturday, after telling the slayer that's when you were attacking, would be a damn stupid move. Yes, he ignored St Vigeous Day but there is no guarantee that waiting would have worked. He did destroy the Annoying One. He made a deal with the Slayer to get rid of Angelus and get Dru back. He kidnapped Xander and Willow, and got what he needed to set him straight - as well as pointing out Buffy and Angel were not friends. He found the Ring of Amara which was considered mythic. More than one plan worked out for him - including finding the place of the Demon Trials, winning his soul back, and getting back to Sunnydale from Africa. I think that overall his success rate is the same as anyone's - but he does prefer to be under estimated. He uses that well - like he used it in Destiny.

This is the same guy who had them run out of towns by ignoring the others and making huge scenes, who defied Angelus over Dru - their opinions may have counted at times but they sure as hell never restrained him.

Let's not use the writer's as a crutch - everything in the show is a construct. That leads to nothing matters because these are actors - speaking lines written for them from stories conceived by others - and pretending in front of cameras. Spike was written as unusual in comparison to the other three but they are all unique. But he had every reason to be different, starting with the fact that he was turned by an insane seer.

Given that Spike fought for the soul, I believe he said he didn't want to add to the death toll. Yeah, he's still Spike - snarky, confrontational, and completely devoted to Buffy. But he chooses to do good because he now understands good,and understands the evil he did. And he has a path already marked out for him by Angel.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

That leads to nothing matters because these are actors - speaking lines written for them from stories conceived by others - and pretending in front of cameras.

I cant do that. I'm sorry. I tried but I cant. They ARE not real. They ARE speaking lines written for them (except when they improvise). They ARE just pretending. But the purpose and the meaning that the writers were trying to convey is what's important.

I don't use the writers as a crutch, I use them as a fact.. because they are. It's a pretend world. But what and how the writers write the character, the character traits and what purpose they serve is what matters to me. I can't see it any other way, and I can't pretend that I do. 
@bespangeled "a complete Doylist!"
Oh no, I hated Doyle too! With the exception of Merle, there were no good green characters.

But seriously, I think thats why its rare I become emotionally involved with the characters, and tend to like 'nasty' and 'flawed' characters over heroes. Plus, ya know, it's fantasy.