Getting Away With It

[LadyLavinia]

Why is it that when Angel makes a deal that results in the memory loss of those close to him, very few people condemn his actions?

In "I Will Remember You", people still consider that episode romantic, despite the fact that he made a deal with the Oracles that not only allowed him to return to being a vampire, it resulted in Buffy and the others losing their memories of that day he was human. Even worse, he made this decision without their consent. Yet, many fans consider all of this romantic.

And when "Home" first aired, everyone oozed with sympathy for Angel, when he made a deal with W&H to give Connor a new life. The deal also resulted in the Fang Gang's loss of any memory of Connor. Something that Angel never told them.

Why does he always get away with it? Not only on the show, but with the fans and the media?

 

[SlayerThe]

Ah, this topic again....

One simple answer:

Because the world was better after he made those choices.

Sure, Buffy had a right to know about that day, but in the end, she lived longer because of this. Also, what would Los Angeles been without Angel? Probably chaotic, maybe apocalyptic. Think about how much Angel helped the world post-IWRY, then imagine him not being there. I can visual something like "The Wish", L.A. without its champion as Sunnydale was without its slayer.

Same thing for Connor. Before "Home", Connor was insane and had no semblance of a normal life. Angel and Wolfram and Hart gave him a chance at a normal life. Honestly, would you rather have insane Connor who tries to blow up a building than calm Connor who goes to Stanford and lives a good life with a happy family?

I'm sure that Angel deliberated with these questions for quite a while; this wasn't something that he would do everyday. Choices had to be made, and I think Angel made the right choices. Because in the end, I think Buffy and Connor would thank him. Although I don't really see why the Fang Gang would be upset, because I don't believe that would be any of their business.

 

[Joamna]

I actually was kind of mad.. (or not really mad, but a little upset) at him at first for IWRY, but mostly I think because I was thinking about how mad Buffy would be if she found out. Though I think he made the right choice, and he did tell her before the day restarted even if she didn't remember it later..

I'm sure that Angel deliberated with these questions for quite a while; this wasn't something that he would do everyday. Choices had to be made, and I think Angel made the right choices. Because in the end, I think Buffy and Connor would thank him. Although I don't really see why the Fang Gang would be upset, because I don't believe that would be any of their business.

I agree here. And Connor did find out later and told him that he thought he made the right choice.. But it's though decisions, and I don't think that erazing memories is a good sulotion to problems. One should defenitely avoid if possible.

 

[goldenboy]

It is their business to the extent that it effects their personal lives and future decisions. Team Angel had been exposed to so much moral murk and difficult decisions, seasons 3, 4.

I wonder if, having memories of Connor's trauma, moral confusion, that Wesley, Gunn, Fred, Lorne might not have made different decisions about taking over WR&H. It is a morally ambiguous decision.

Angel was selfless in his wishes for Conner, yet selfish in knowing what he was taking from his friends. Ignorance isn't always bliss. Has consequenses as well.

I think maybe the theoretical ideal would be that Angel tell everyone that he wanted to make this decision for Connor, join WR&H, and notify them that their memories would be wiped. They'd be full, consenting adults then.

But I'm sure he'd feel he could never take the chance of them refusing.

 

[nerd4hire]

Wesley makes an interesting point on this in Origin -

WESLEY
(nods)
At least I know what happened.

ILLYRIA
Do you? There are 2 sets of memories"”those that happened and those that are fabricated. It's hard to tell which is which.

WESLEY
(looks confused, shakes his head)
Try to push reality out of your mind. Focus on the other memories. They were created for a reason.

ILLYRIA
To hide from the truth?

WESLEY
(looks pained, looks into Illyria's eyes)
To endure it.

There's another side of this I always find interesting. Memories weren't just wiped realities were altered. This creates what I think is a cool question. If one reality is altered, does the original reality go on, or does it just vanish?

When the Oracles rolls back the timeline in IWRY does the other timeline still go on in a different reality?

As far as the question of the morality goes though, in Home I find the question of wiped memories of less moral import than the fact Angel killed Connor.

 

[goldenboy]

Who is that British physicist? David Deutsch I think he's called. He believes that through some kind of quantum effect, every possible reality that could ever exist, does in fact exist. Each little decision we make creates a new 'universe", a new reality. They all exist side by side, never to interact. So, there's a reality where Angel didn't kill Connor, didn't join WR&H, etc...

 

[nerd4hire]

And that creates another fun angle to the original question, doesn't it?

If that were true Angel wouldn't so much have corrupted anything, as chosen something different already in existence, in which case he didn't so much wipe memories as add them to his persona in the second reality.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Wesley makes an interesting point on this in Origin -



There's another side of this I always find interesting. Memories weren't just wiped realities were altered. This creates what I think is a cool question. If one reality is altered, does the original reality go on, or does it just vanish?

When the Oracles rolls back the timeline in IWRY does the other timeline still go on in a different reality?

As far as the question of the morality goes though, in Home I find the question of wiped memories of less moral import than the fact Angel killed Connor.

I think some of realities go on in exisistence, like The Wish reality obviously still went on IMO since they were able to get Vampish Willow out of her world that she remembered and normal willow had no idea of it. And time seemed to move on normally in the normal universe with only Anya and Cordelia remembering what they saw and experianced.

But perhaps when it comes to rewinding time, there only is one reality for it.

 

[goldenboy]

Now that's a good point, Primal Slayer. The Wish alternate reality confirms David Deutsch's multiple realities co-existing theory. So, there could be zillions of Buffys, Willows, Xanders, etc. Shrimpless realities, shrimpful realities...

 

[nerd4hire]

It isn't just the Wish either. In Birthday (I think it was) Skip takes Cordelia into an alternate reality, then later brings her back to the original.

 

[goldenboy]

Ah yeah, that was like "It's a Wonderful Life" or, "Its a Horrible Life".

 

[Mike]

Why is it that when Angel makes a deal that results in the memory loss of those close to him, very few people condemn his actions?

Because he is a wonderful character that everybody loves. Yes, he acts like an idiot sometimes, but who can blame him?. Do hate Homer for being stupid?. 😛. Anyway, Angel is not that stupid, he makes silly mistakes from time to time, but who's perfect (besides Lestat de Lioncourt 😛) ?

In "I Will Remember You", people still consider that episode romantic,

That's because it is romantic. Buffy...Angel...Love...Yummy food 😛. Pretty romantic.

despite the fact that he made a deal with the Oracles that not only allowed him to return to being a vampire, it resulted in Buffy and the others losing their memories of that day he was human.

You forgot to mention that he did that to save Buffy's life...

Even worse, he made this decision without their consent. Yet, many fans consider all of this romantic.

You wanted him to ask her for permission to errase her memory?. He did the right thing by not telling her.

And when "Home" first aired, everyone oozed with sympathy for Angel, when he made a deal with W&H to give Connor a new life. The deal also resulted in the Fang Gang's loss of any memory of Connor. Something that Angel never told them.

He gave Connor a happy new life. The guy had suffered a lot. The deal was worthy. Connor deserved to be "a normal kid".

Why does he always get away with it? Not only on the show, but with the fans and the media?

Because it doesn't matter how stupid his actions are, they all are noble. Everybody loves heros.

 

[Cookie Dough]

Why is it that when Angel makes a deal that results in the memory loss of those close to him, very few people condemn his actions?

Because he's not doing it for laughs. He's giving up the people that he loves so they can have a better life even if he can't.

In "I Will Remember You", people still consider that episode romantic, despite the fact that he made a deal with the Oracles that not only allowed him to return to being a vampire, it resulted in Buffy and the others losing their memories of that day he was human. Even worse, he made this decision without their consent. Yet, many fans consider all of this romantic.

Because he gave up "Every drop of human happiness" for Buffy. So that she would live. She said right before the day got erased that if she remembered she wouldn't be able to go on without him.

And when "Home" first aired, everyone oozed with sympathy for Angel, when he made a deal with W&H to give Connor a new life. The deal also resulted in the Fang Gang's loss of any memory of Connor. Something that Angel never told them.

Well did ya see his face? His grief was really resounding. Why does it matter if the gang lost Connor's memory? If Angel had been selfish and wanted to keep Connor from having any ounce of happiness and kill everyone in the mall in the meantime, things would have been a lot worse. People were sympathetic for Angel because he gave up his son and he didn't do it to be called a hero. He only did it because of how much he loves his son.

Why does he always get away with it? Not only on the show, but with the fans and the media?

Why does unsouled Spike get sympathy even though he's tried to kill and rape Buffy? Why do Spuffy shippers get sympathetic about souled Spike when the reason he didn't go back to Buffy was because he was afraid it would hurt his hero image?

 

[LadyLavinia]

Not everyone loves Angel. There are a good number of people who despise him. There are a lot of Willow fans, as well, but they don't try to excuse her actions in episodes like "All the Way" and "Tabula Rasa".

As far as the question of the morality goes though, in Home I find the question of wiped memories of less moral import than the fact Angel killed Connor.

I feel that both actions have a moral impact. When Angel made that deal to alter everyone's memories, he had more or less committed psychic rape. Their memories were altered without their consent. But I keep forgetting that we live in a society in which the majority of humans beings think that it is okay for one person to inflict his/her will upon others without consent.

Why does unsouled Spike get sympathy even though he's tried to kill and rape Buffy?

Spike is one of my favorite characters, but I don't think that his attempted rape of Buffy was excusable. Nor do I believe that Buffy's treatment of him was excusable. Xander is another favorite, but I have found some of his actions beneath contempt.


If you love a certain character, fine. But I do get tired of people trying to make excuses if they committed some dark deed. Or pretending that what he or she did, wasn't really wrong.

 

[nerd4hire]

When Angel made that deal to alter everyone's memories, he had more or less committed psychic rape. Their memories were altered without their consent. But I keep forgetting that we live in a society in which the majority of humans beings think that it is okay for one person to inflict his/her will upon others without consent.

When Alternate Reality Giles crushed Anya's power center wasn't he doing the same thing Angel did by altering his reality? Why is it just Angel you want to damn?

Also I think you're misinterpreting people's reaction to Angel's actions here. I don't think anyone is saying "Go Angel. Rape those Memories". I think it's more like "Poor anti-hero Angel, once more he is stuck in a situation where he has to make another dark choice".

 

[Willow Rosenberg]

I don't think we, as fans, excuse the actions of our favorite characters, but find ways to love, care for, and relate to these characters inspite of their flaws.

What the show says to me, is that no one is perfect, no matter how righteous, they try to be. The important thing is that you learn from your mistakes and grow as a person/demon/etc...

 

[Angel's vision]

I agree with Nerd for hire and Cordelia, in fact the way i look at it Angel wasn't offered much of a choice when faced with news clip of his son about to murder the woman he loved and innocents, plus he could not find Conner at all if he just said no he would of been faced with a situation where there would be dead innocents along side Cordy and Conner.Angel couldn't live with that so he acted on the spur of the moment out of desperation ,love, worry concern and helplessness.

Angel: I really do love you son
Conner: Proove it..
Cut to Angel turning away in emotional pain and picking up the dagger he stabs Conner -Flash-
Cut to Angel walking towards teh fang gang back at w&h..

Also Cordy pointed out that he allowed them to rape their memories

Cordy: You allowed them to rape their memories...?
(Turning to Angel in disbelief.)
Angel bowes his head in shame.
Wait there's more..Conner he tried to kill you..and himself.

So yes there was phycic rape but out of emotional blackmail.
It looks like w&H offerd him that choice after he made the request for Conner
Not an alternate sultion that avioded it.

 

[Kimm]

It's unfortunate the people that sit back, play it safe and don't make the hard decisions seem to slip through the cracks but the onces who step up and make the hard decisions get condemned.

Angel was forced to make some hard decisions and he made them and I think he did the right thing.

If I were faced with decisions like that then I would have made the same choices.

Give my child a life of happiness and love vs. a life of pain and suffering?? Easy choice.

Let the one person I love more than anything die or erase the day to save his/her life?? Easy choice.

I can see that some people might feel he invaded people's minds by making these choices but I think that his intentions were good and in the end they all were the better for it.