Giles and Angel vs Spike

VisionGirl

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On another thread about the episode Lies My Parents Told Me, [MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION] said this:
After all is said, however, the thing that was never pointed out, at least on screen to Buffy, was the fact that the whole plot to kill Spike was initiated, not by Giles, but by Robin Wood, the man who fully admitted that his concern wasn't with any sort of liability or threat that Spike presented to the group. He just wanted "the monster who murdered (his) mother." Granted, Giles had his doubts about Spike, but I believe that more than a small amount of that was his disapproval of any sort of relationship between Spike and Buffy.

So it made me think: why was Giles more disapproving of Spike & Buffy's relationship of Spike than of Angel & Buffy's relationship with Angel?

On the one hand, Giles met Angel when he was ensouled, while he doesn't get that much time interacting with ensouled Spike (of course, soulless Angel & soulless Spike are 2 different beasts entirely!). But it seems to me that Angelus did much more damage to Giles, Buffy, and the gang than soulless Spike ever did. Yes, Giles was angry when he found out in season 3 that Angel was back and that Buffy hadn't told him. That's probably the angriest at Buffy that I've ever seen him. But although he was cautious after that, he didn't attempt to assist another person in killing him like he did with Robin Wood! In fact, they worked together at times. He actually had some kind of "respect" for Angel for leaving Buffy. And maybe that's the problem: Spike wasn't going to leave Buffy.

I'm rambling now. Any thoughts?
 
So it made me think: why was Giles more disapproving of Spike & Buffy's relationship of Spike than of Angel & Buffy's relationship with Angel?

I don't think that Giles was as much disapproving of Buffy and Spike together as he was almost certain that Buffy and Angel could never be together because of his curse, therefor he saw Angel as no threat to "his little girl." Granted, in Season 1 and the first part of Season 2, Giles pretty much accepted Angel as one of the good guys unconditionally, and he certainly knew about Buffy's feelings for Angel. Just about as certainly, I believe, he saw Angel as little more than a school girl infatuation, something that Buffy would grow out of within a few years, if not months.

After the curse was discovered, Angelus defeated, and Angel restored, Giles eventually accepted Angel as an ally once more, and if he had any worries about Angel and Buffy ever being a couple again they were more than counterbalanced by his belief that the curse made that an impossibility. No threat, no worries. His little girl was free to find someone "better for her," meaning, of course, someone who HE approved of. (Giles must have done the dance of joy when he first met all American boy Riley. His prayers were answered!

There was no curse keeping Spike and Buffy apart, and by the time that he had regained his soul, no strings, or curses, attached, Buffy was even actively defending him and taking his side against Giles' protestations. Whether there ever could be something permanent between Buffy and Spike or not, Giles saw the possibility of such a relationship, and he simply could not accept that. That's why he was so willing to betray Buffy's trust and destroy her strongest ally. Any threat or liability that Giles saw in Spike certainly included the threat that they would wind up as a couple permanently.

Short answer, Giles was more tolerant of Angel than Spike because he saw Spike as a threat to his version of Buffy's real happiness. Angel, because of the curse (Giles, as far as we know, never knew anything about the Shanshu prophecy) presented no such threat, and could, therefore, be more tolerated. I seriously doubt that he ever completely trusted either vampire after Season 2.
 
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Spikefan31
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dexeded
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Good question! I've given a lot of thought to this over the years! I used to be really upset by the inconsistency on Giles's part with regard to both relationships, and because I adore Giles so much I was looking for some answers which would make me feel better. Here's what I've come up with so far:

In the beginning, Giles was essentially amused albeit slightly unsure of the relationship between Angel and Buffy. All things considered, I think he approved, at the end of the day. He didn't do a whole lot of questioning, after the initial "can any vampire ever be good, or trustworthy," once Angel had proven himself both good and trustworthy. He may have had plenty of doubts but it just wasn't something he really dwelled on aside from the occasional quip or two, until "Surprise." I think for him, the notion of Buffy dating anyone was inherently unfavorable in the sense that it was a waste of her precious time and energy, but dating Angel was at least something she could do while directing her focus toward the mission. Overall, it was good for her, or good "enough"--from his perspective--because it meant Angel would be beside her every night, protecting her. Certainly, there was no fear that Angel would start behaving like, well, a vampire.

When Angel returned in season 3 in the aftermath of his destruction of Giles's life, his anger is directed of course toward Buffy initially, for keeping his return a secret. But I really think that after he recovered from the shock of the vampire's return and all it entailed, it was not difficult for him to see Angel as an entirely different being from Angelus. The question of course is "why?" Surely it should have been the most difficult for Giles--even impossible. But I think after Buffy described what had happened at the mansion right before Angel was sent to hell; after she described what she had to do, and how Angel had been himself right before that--I think Giles felt empathy and grief for Buffy. Having just lost Jenny, he was able to relate to her loss in such a way that he could forget that she mourned for the same person who had killed his own love; and in order to rationalize this sentiment for himself, he needed to quickly accept that Angel and Angelus were two different entities. Essentially, Giles's love for Buffy and his need to empathize with her in the wake of the two deaths is what propelled him to begin to accept Angel and see him as (perhaps) just as much of a victim as the rest of them. It seems a bit radical from our perspective, but the grief made it a necessity.
So by the time Angel was back in the fold, helping out, Giles was ready to accept him. He would never see him the same way of course, but ultimately he wasn't going to begrudge Buffy an opportunity to reunite with her lover, especially after what had just happened to him. As long as, you know, nothing "Happened" again. 😱

On to Spike. The fascinating and simultaneously frustrating thing about how Giles treats Spike is, at least from my perspective, that he is more tolerant and patient with the (chipped) vampire in season 4 than he is when Spike is truly trying to help in later seasons. This is something I've always had a lot of difficulty accepting, but I've been working through it! In season 4, Giles sees chipped Spike as an opportunity, once he gets accepts the fact that Buffy will not be killing him. This, to me, makes perfect sense. It's clear that Spike is willing to help the gang out for the sake of his own hide and using him for this purpose is a good, resourceful move. (Never mind the fact that by the end of the season they discover that he was playing both sides for a little while; hindsight is 20/20 and besides, he does help them in the finale--as predicted--for the sake of his own safety from Buffy!) What's odd to me is that Giles develops a bit of a rapport with Spike in this season that quickly disappears once Spike basically makes himself omnipresent in the following season.

Here's how I rationalize it: in season 4, the terms are clear. For Giles, Spike is still "evil" but he is helpful anyway. Hence, it is easy to read him; because he is predicable and under control it is possible to keep him at a distance while utilizing him, and Giles can relax around him. In season 5, once Spike makes his feelings for Buffy known, he is no longer "in his place." To Giles, he's a threat. He is persistent. Unpredictable. What will motivate him, now? What will he do if he doesn't get what he wants? The fact that this vampire now wants something that the gang is refusing to give him, (Buffy), might make him seem quite a lot more dangerous from Giles's perspective. Then we have an episode like "Crush," which seems to support that particular concern. So now instead of knowing exactly where they all stand with Spike, Giles has to wonder if he will be helpful if what he desires is unfulfilled. Or, worse, will he be so upset that he'll transcend the captivity of the chip and attack them? Kill Buffy?

So, this goes on for a while, and then we have "Intervention," the game changer. Spike has no reason to think that Buffy will ever respond positively to him yet he endures torture for her sake, and for Dawn. By "Spiral," Giles accepts that Spike can be trusted; if he didn't think so he wouldn't allow them to leave town with him at the wheel. The fear that Spike's help will only be given if Buffy gives him what he wants is starting to become more and more unfounded, as time goes on. Then things really get turned upside down. Giles thought he had Spike pegged, (do things only in the interest of not being staked, do things only in the interest of a relationship with Buffy), but now, in the beginning of season 6, Buffy is dead. And where is Spike? Did he leave town, or try to kill them all, now that there's no chance that what he wants will be fulfilled? Nope. He's still fighting by their side. Taking care of Dawn.

Giles's departure to England speaks volumes about how he feels about Spike. With Buffy dead, Spike and the Buffybot are, let's face it, "the slayer" that presides over the Sunnydale hellmouth. They are the ones most actively and effectively keeping the forces in check. We know he doesn't expect Willow to do very much in the way of magic; he's always the first to tell her to stop. So by leaving his sunnydale "family" in the hands of Spike and a robot, there was quite a lot of trust there. And yet, when he returns, there's so much disapproval. Disdain. So much "Spike is a horrible creature who's not to be trusted---Spike, save me!" I don't think it's because he's worried about whether Buffy will have a relationship with him. Or if it is, how inconsistent. He wasn't worried about Buffy/Angel once he knew about the nature of the curse, and how easily it could be removed. With all Spike had done, and his fancy chip, how could he have been more disapproving than he was with Angel, especially considering who Angel was, to him? I think it's because he's tired. His spirits are crushed and he doesn't have very much faith left. When Buffy reunited with Angel, a mourning Giles was happy for them. The idea of Spike with a reluctant Buffy just didn't have the same appeal. This vampire couldn't convince him of much; he'd seen too much and lost too often. That's the best I can do...

Then we have season 7. Here's how I rationalize Giles's actions toward Spike: a nice, little plot device. As someone mentioned in another thread, season 7 was not loyal to the die hard fans who expected character consistency. There was so much that was written for the "shock and awe" effect. "Whoa. Buffy's watcher betrayed her. Whoa." I think clear evidence of this is the fact that they omitted the scene in which Giles admits that Spike is innocent but likens the necessity for "taking him out" to the situation with Ben. It would explain so much. Everything, really. So for that reason, I can't really take season 7 into account when analyzing all this.

Anyway, that's how I look at Giles's treatment/perception of both vampires throughout the series! Sorry for the freaking essay guys, I just realized how long this is!
 
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kittenpoker
awesome post! great insights!
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Aloverssoulz
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I agree with all the points everyone has made so far and would just like to point out one more thing.....

I believe Giles attempt to kill Spike had more to do with his loss of trust in Buffy than anything else. During the Angel years (and early Spike years) Giles trusted Buffy to ultimately do the right thing despite what it personally did to her but after he left (and Buffy came back from the dead) Giles didn't understand her decisions or necessarily trust her judgement or his ability to have any influence over her. I don't think Giles realized how much damage leaving her in Season 6 would do to their relationship (his worst mistake imo) and I think he just felt like Buffy wasn't thinking of anyone but Spike.
 
I'm not entirely sure. I've always saw it as more circumstantial than anything else. In Season 7, matters were incredibly desperate and Giles seemed worried that Buffy wasn't thinking clearly when it came to Spike.

When the FE was manipulating Angel, Giles also suggested that Buffy may have to kill him if he truly becomes a threat.

I honestly don't think it's anything personal and if anything it may be as result of what happened with Angel. She already had one relationship that ended in heartbreak and Giles wanted more for Buffy.

As for LMPTM, I'd rationalize that but saying it was an extreme reaction to an extreme situation, but certainly I'd say he respected Angel more for leaving when he thought their relationship was dangerous.
 
By "Spiral," Giles accepts that Spike can be trusted; if he didn't think so he wouldn't allow them to leave town with him at the wheel.

Giles wasn't in charge, Buffy was. Giles did not have the option of not allowing Spike to drive.

Giles's departure to England speaks volumes about how he feels about Spike. With Buffy dead, Spike and the Buffybot are, let's face it, "the slayer" that presides over the Sunnydale hellmouth. They are the ones most actively and effectively keeping the forces in check. We know he doesn't expect Willow to do very much in the way of magic; he's always the first to tell her to stop.

When has Giles stopped Willow from doing magic? He let her practically teach herself and very rarely hesitated to use her skills. I really don't think he relied on Spike to hold the line all that much because that would mean that Giles was profoundly stupid. Which would be in character for S6 Giles, granted, but not the intended idea.

There was no curse keeping Spike and Buffy apart, and by the time that he had regained his soul, no strings, or curses, attached, Buffy was even actively defending him and taking his side against Giles' protestations. Whether there ever could be something permanent between Buffy and Spike or not, Giles saw the possibility of such a relationship, and he simply could not accept that. That's why he was so willing to betray Buffy's trust and destroy her strongest ally

First, Spike wasn't Buffy's strongest ally. Second, an ally who is a puppet of your enemy is a total liability. Third, Giles trying to get rid of Spike has little to do with Spuffy per se. If Buffy blindly believed in Spike for some other reason I can totally see Giles doing the same. If Giles were so scared of Spuffy he could have easily dusted Spike years before Lies Joss Whedon Told Me.

I think clear evidence of this is the fact that they omitted the scene in which Giles admits that Spike is innocent but likens the necessity for "taking him out" to the situation with Ben. It would explain so much. Everything, really.

I feel dirty for defending LMPTM but did you really need that omitted scene to understand Giles's motive for taking out Spike? It was glaringly obvious to me.
 
First, Spike wasn't Buffy's strongest ally.

If Spike wasn't Buffy's strongest ally, even with the First Evil's trigger, then who was? Willow was still not fully recovered from the previous season, and her control of magic was questionable, by her own admission. LMPTM occurred before Faith came back, and as far as Giles knew, she was still safely locked away in prison. That leaves Giles himself, but he was gone at least as much as he was there. Xander? Dawn? Not likely. Wood? Andrew? Anya? One of the Potentials? Even less likely. And Angel didn't show up until the end of the season, and that was just to give the Bangels a boost.

I repeat, if Spike, who Buffy herself described as "The only one watching (her) back," wasn't Buffy's strongest ally, just who was?
 
Giles wasn't in charge, Buffy was. Giles did not have the option of not allowing Spike to drive.

Giles wasn't in charge but he openly admitted to Xander that Spike could prove useful, and he didn't raise any complaints which I'm sure he would have done, had he believed that Spike couldn't be trusted in this situation. So yes, I believe he trusted Spike at this point. If he truly believed that Spike was dangerous yet didn't so much as make a peep, (save a small quip to no one about his uneasiness upon seeing Spike), when everyone boarded the RV and embarked on this "great adventure" to "who the heck knows where, with lots of enemies on our tail," then he is just the worst and most irresponsible character on the show. (I don't believe he is, for the record, if you get my drift!)


When has Giles stopped Willow from doing magic? He let her practically teach herself and very rarely hesitated to use her skills. I really don't think he relied on Spike to hold the line all that much because that would mean that Giles was profoundly stupid. Which would be in character for S6 Giles, granted, but not the intended idea.

From season 2 onward, every time Willow mentions or performs a "risky" spell, Giles does not hesitate to warn her of the danger involved and does not hide his disapproval. Based on his reaction to her infamous season 6 spell, he is clearly still of the frame of mind that "less is more." So he lets her do her telepathy spells which are useful during patrol. But do you really think he'd be ok with her doing so much magic that she was essentially a substitute for a slayer? Think of the number, or magnitude, of spells that would entail. I just can't see that Giles either expected or wanted that from Willow when he left, given how he acted throughout the series.
That being said, yes, there were certainly times when he needed her to perform her magic, which was of course very hypocritical of him. But if you were to ask him point blank, "is it ok for Willow to be doing lots of involved spells in order to protect the hellmouth in Buffy's absence?" I'm almost certain he would say "NO." Emergencies were always one thing. But Willow's magic as a long term solution? No way he was expecting that.

If he didn't rely on Spike to "hold the line," who was it, then? The easily fried and broken down robot? An overactive Willow? Again, neither adds up to me for the reasons stated above. And at least, if you insist that he was putting a lot of bank on Willow and the 'bot, certainly Spike was a huge part of the overall picture.



I feel dirty for defending LMPTM but did you really need that omitted scene to understand Giles's motive for taking out Spike? It was glaringly obvious to me.

As I said, the scene shows us that Giles openly acknowledges that Spike is innocent but believes that he should be killed, anyway. This was NOT glaringly obvious, especially since he had expressed to Buffy that it was dangerous to keep Spike around, even with a soul. The motive, (allegedly "protecting everyone from Spike") is not what was in question, (as you say it was of course "glaringly obvious.") What was in question was how Giles perceived Spike when he made his decision. That he acted against him in spite of the fact that he might have otherwise believed that he could be good or that he was, at the very least, innocent. That taking him out would be a sacrifice, as was Ben's end. That it wasn't simply because Spike could never be redeemed or trusted again. That's why the scene was important.
 
I repeat, if Spike, who Buffy herself described as "The only one watching (her) back," wasn't Buffy's strongest ally, just who was?

Willow. But that's a bit of a moot point because I don't believe for a second that Spike's strength or the lack thereof was a factor in Buffy's blind faith in him.

Giles wasn't in charge but he openly admitted to Xander that Spike could prove useful, and he didn't raise any complaints which I'm sure he would have done, had he believed that Spike couldn't be trusted in this situation.

Or maybe Giles recognized that talking to Buffy about Spike is like talking to a wall? 🙂

But do you really think he'd be ok with her doing so much magic that she was essentially a substitute for a slayer?

Yes, totally. Until the magic crack nonsense came out of left field, there wasn't such thing as "too much magic". Willow, Xander, Oz and Giles had already held the line for a whole summer with no magic whatsoever, nor robots, nor the ability to call Angel or Riley if things become too tough. Frankly, if the show wasn't called Buffy, it would be perfectly normal to see Willow being able to do most of the job all on her own, given the level of power she was given in S5.

What was in question was how Giles perceived Spike when he made his decision. That he acted against him in spite of the fact that he might have otherwise believed that he could be good or that he was, at the very least, innocent. That taking him out would be a sacrifice, as was Ben's end. That it wasn't simply because Spike could never be redeemed or trusted again. That's why the scene was important.

Well, I got all that from the episode without reading the shooting script. And I would have applauded Giles had he actually decided to kill Spike just for being Spike, so...The ends justify the means theme is spelled out so clearly that it makes me cringe because of the sheer lack of subtlety of it all - the conversation about whether Buffy would sacrifice Dawn for the greater good.
 
Ok these answers are way too long for me to read. I think him trying to kill Spike was more focused towards the fact that the First could control Spike and use Spike against them. The First didn't lose it's Hold on spike until after Spike fought Robin and discovered his trigger and stuff.
 
A few reasons:

For starters, Spike was constantly being mind-controlled by The First. He was a constant threat (although, as we clearly saw, not forever) to Buffy, Giles and everyone else. That's a reason, sure, but I also think that he (like everyone else in the Scooby crew except Buffy) hated Spike, and he absolutely hated Spike with Buffy (even though they weren't really "with" one another by that point). Combine that with the history he had with an unensouled Spike and what he found out about Robin's history with him and I can see why he did what he did. I don't agree with it at all, Spike had a soul, but I can understand it.

With Angel, Giles didn't see what Angelus really was until he slept with Buffy, and they made it pretty clear that no one knew how to unlock the curse and vanquish Angel's soul. I suppose he didn't really see a downside to it. Angel had helped them countless times, and had saved the world. He'd proven many times that he loved Buffy, and Giles knew that Buffy loved Angel. And, while this is a bit of a writing complaint, Angel is genuinely good guy, while Spike with a soul still had almost identical personality traits to Spike without a soul. Now, I know they did this because Spike was a highly entertaining character and they didn't want to change the core elements of what had made him so popular and successful, but that could be part of it. The difference between Angel and Angelus was huge. The difference between Spike and soul-Spike, in the way they acted at least, not so much (and before anyone harps on me, I know there is a massive distinction between Spike with a soul and without one).
 
Guys, allow me to canon you. Giles simply wants to bring the twilight. Spike gets in the way.
 
And here I was, so eager to jump into the thread... and the responses basically sum up what I wanted to say.

Anyway, main points:
-Spike had the trigger.
-Spike was clouding Buffy's judgement.
-S7 had higher stakes than ever.
-Giles no longer had as much influence over Buffy as he once did (even before LMPTM), so this would naturally lead to more conflict.
-Giles was absent during most of S6 and some of S7, so he was not as close or understanding to Buffy as before--he did not trust Buffy as he used to. Adding to his newfound unfamiliarity/reservations with the new Buffy would be the fact that she started a relationship with Spike while he was still soulless. He probably thought 'mistakes happen' in that understanding Giles-y way, but it remains that it was a mistake.
-Nor did he (or the other characters, for that matter) witness the whole torrid affair between Buffy and Spike. The only people who would truly understand would be Buffy, Spike, and the viewers.
-He probably heard about the AR.
-Spike was constantly in the house, as opposed to Angel who only dropped by now and then to be frustratingly cryptic.
 
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