Giles And Buffy, A Matter Of Trust

[white avenger]

"Lies My Parents Told Me" ended with Buffy making it perfectly clear to Giles that she was, at the very least, not pleased with what he and Wood had tried to do to Spike. My question is, do you think that the father/daughter bond that had existed between the two for the previous six plus years would ever be completely healed again? Especially considering Giles' siding with the others against her later in "Empty Places?"

Personally, I think that, while the love that the two shared might have survived those actions, the level of trust was gone, possibly never to be regained. Certainly, in Season 8, in the "No Future For You" arc, I got the feeling that Buffy and Giles were more or less separated by mutual agreement, in order to try and get over some mutual differences.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

My question is, do you think that the father/daughter bond that had existed between the two for the previous six plus years would ever be completely healed again? Especially considering Giles' siding with the others against her later in "Empty Places?"

No, I don't think Giles and Buffy can regain the relationship they once had - and I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. Relationship evolve with time. Buffy no longer needs a surrogate father figure. Now, Giles needs to prove he can be her friend. One of Buffy's key traits is her ability to forgive, but I'm not sure Giles deserves it.

Am I being to hard on Giles? Perhaps. But Giles went behind Buffy's back and tried to get Spike killed.

 

[Tome]

It really makes me sad that this is how it ended for Buffy & Giles. 🙁 They were my two favorite characters on the show, and I loved their relationship. This is part of why I dislike S7.

To answer your question, I doubt it will ever be healed. Unless something happens that makes them close again. I think they'll always respect each other, but most of the love/trust seems to be gone.

Oh and, the scene in 'Empty Places'... What a low blow by Giles, ugh!

 

[Icarium]

My question is, do you think that the father/daughter bond that had existed between the two for the previous six plus years would ever be completely healed again?

I hope not because Buffy doesn't deserve it. Plus, we know that for Whedon being a bad father is the most heinous crime possible, so...

 

[xfivebyfive]

I would like to see it healed. Giles made a mistake going behind her back and trying to have Spike killed but the relationship they had was worth so much to just be thrown away. I think with time if Buffy wanted to fix the relationship they could. The problem is with all that happens in their lives when do they really have the time to put in the effort to fix it.

Buffy doesn't seem to put in the effort for any of her relationships in season 8. I don't see her trying to be close with anyone but Xander. Which makes really annoyed with Buffy.

 

[The Unspoken]

I would like to see it healed. Giles made a mistake going behind her back and trying to have Spike killed but the relationship they had was worth so much to just be thrown away. I think with time if Buffy wanted to fix the relationship they could. The problem is with all that happens in their lives when do they really have the time to put in the effort to fix it.

Buffy doesn't seem to put in the effort for any of her relationships in season 8. I don't see her trying to be close with anyone but Xander. Which makes really annoyed with Buffy.

Giles doesn't think of it as a mistake. In 'The Gift', he displayed the same utilitarian tendency to choose the greater good, first when he suggested killing Dawn and then when he killed Ben. But unlike with Dawn, this time he went against Buffy's wishes. If it was 'just' a mistake, it would be easier for her to forgive him, but Giles believed killing Spike was the proper course of action - and there is certainly merit to his arguments.

 

[Professor Walsh]

Once trust has crumbled, rebuilding it is a lengthy process, often far more so than building it the first time. To rebuild the trust between them would demand a lot from both of them. While I feel, when thinking of the last scene in "Chosen", that their relationship could very well give the foundation needed for the trust to be rebuilt, it's pretty obvious from my very brief reading of S8 that this has not been the route Joss has chosen to take.

 

[zobothehobo]

I don't think it will heal and I don't think it should. I have a hatred for Giles many people do not understand... I know the pain of choosing father figure to look up to and finding out they don't trust you like they tell you they do. What Giles did to Buffy was inexcusable and unforgivable.

 

[brinkster130]

I'm with Zobothehobo, I found myself almost hating Giles in season 7. I think Giles knew how his actions would affect his relationship with Buffy and he didn't seem to care. I don't see them ever regaining the trust they once had. I don't think they will hold it against each other or that either of them will hold onto the anger or hurt but I think they are at the point where they are both ok to walk away from that relationship.

 

[theroyalgoat]

I guess I'm in the minority with siding with Giles on this one. Granted I haven't watched the ep in a really long time, but after all they went through with Spike when he was evil, Giles was right. He was a killer, and if it had just been the Scoobies things would be different, but he not only killed and made a whole bunch of vamps, but there was a buttload of potentials living there and the first breathing down their necks. It really wasn't the time for them to be taking a buttload of chances on a guy who not only tried to kill them for years, but was also just coming off of drinking human blood. I don't think his actions were unforgivable, I think he made the choice to do the hard thing because Buffy wouldn't.

 

[Icarium]

What Giles did to Buffy was inexcusable and unforgivable.

Saving her from her own stupidity? That bastard! It's not as if Buffy has ever done any such thing. What's this Prophecy Girl or Passion you are talking of?!? La-la-la, I can't hear you.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I think they could heal their relathionship, but both are too stuborn to say what's truly on their mind.

 

[dan k]

For me when i think about the early seasons of the show some of my best memories are of Buffy and Giles. To realize that relationship isn't there anymore and probably won't return is a little upsetting.

Like others have stated Buffy no longer Giles in that father capacity, she has all the knowledge at her disposal in terms of slaying and that bond simply isn't there anymore.

A little bit of hope i also look upon in in season 7 though. The scene where Giles says "He bloody loves" the plan Buffy thought of in regard to the Scythe. That was a sign that Buffy still cared about what he thought at least.

 

[Willow My Love]

My point of view is that Buffy should never forgive him. That may be because I have my own issues with my father, but those are better left undiscussed.

Giles has betrayed her trust before, we saw that in Helpless, but in that episode what he was doing was killing him inside. This time, he meant to go behind her back. He meant for her not to find out, and he didn't feel bad about it. That's not something you forgive.

You look to your parents or parental figures to guide you, love you, and never hurt you. Once they do, they've changed themselves forever in your eyes. Once they betray you, there's no coming back. And if they do it without regret, they lose your trust, and respect.

 

[dan k]

My point of view is that Buffy should never forgive him. That may be because I have my own issues with my father, but those are better left undiscussed.

Giles has betrayed her trust before, we saw that in Helpless, but in that episode what he was doing was killing him inside. This time, he meant to go behind her back. He meant for her not to find out, and he didn't feel bad about it. That's not something you forgive.

You look to your parents or parental figures to guide you, love you, and never hurt you. Once they do, they've changed themselves forever in your eyes. Once they betray you, there's no coming back. And if they do it without regret, they lose your trust, and respect.

Everyone makes mistakes though, i think it would be a shame for that incident to ruin what they had. Of course Giles was wrong but his intentions were of protecting Buffy and the world.

 

[FetalPig]

Buffy should never forgive him .... he didn't feel bad about it.

That's a good point.
As I see it trust comes from people understanding what the motives were. Giles never delved into his motives. He knew Wood had a grudge and yet he went along with Wood's 'You deceive Buffy while I take out her warrior' plan.

It made sense to take out Spike. Sure. It was a risk having him around. And Buffy had this infernal ... no that's the wrong word .. frustrating way of intuiting a course of action and trying to feel her way through to a right decision that is the opposite of evil, and Giles made the utilitarian (someone said recently) choice to kill Spike. Impasse.

I don't know anything about the comics, and anyway this is a season 7 discussion so ...

No matter what Giles thinks about taking out Spike he doesn't understand his motivations for going behind Buffy's back.
Buffy was betrayed by Giles.
Wood got told to get his act together and drop his vendetta. Nuff said. They understood each other.

But Buffy used this to kick Giles out of her sphere of influence. No more father figure.
Giles cut Buffy out of the loop and Buffy cut Giles out of the loop. These people have worked together for years but there is dissension in the ranks.

I think it hinges
a) on Giles coming to terms with why he went along with Woods' plan ... or should i say The First's plan ... since that's where the seed was planted ...
and b) on Buffy coming to terms with why she shut Giles out rather than calling him to task.

And good luck to the pair of them.

 

[white avenger]

Giles has betrayed her trust before, we saw that in Helpless, but in that episode what he was doing was killing him inside. This time, he meant to go behind her back. He meant for her not to find out, and he didn't feel bad about it. That's not something you forgive.

And that brings up a whole new question. Assuming that Giles and Wood had been successful, what would they have told Buffy The truth?

Giles: "I wish that I could say that I was sorry, Buffy, but even though I know that you and Spike are no longer intimate with each other, I want so much more for you, so I decided to join in a conspiracy with Wood to do what we both knew that you never would.

Wood: "He's the monster who killed my mother, the vampire that I've devoted my life to finding and destroying. This whole, 'He's still under the influence of the First Evil' thing was just an excuse and an opportunity to settle my personal vendetta."

Or would they have just let Buffy believe that Spike had somehow been killed by minions of the First Evil (actually not far from the truth, considering the fact that it, in the guise of Wood's mother, told him about Spike, obviously knowing exactly what his reaction would be)

 

[Eleftheria]

What happened with Wood,Giles and Spike was a sensitive matter. Each one of them believes he is right, from his own point of view. And I agree with that. Wood wants to avenge his mother. Giles wanted to protect Buffy once more. Spike has a soul now so he is not responsible for what his soulless self did. And Buffy is also right. She has to fight a big fight in s7, and she doesn't give a crap about vendettas. She cares about the mission. What I understand is that Buffy has changed as a person. She was healed in the end of s6 but still there is a coldness left in her. Her relationship with Giles was one of the most wodnerful bonds in the show. Surely, she lost her trust, but I think it is possible that she can trust him again on the same level. And she also needs to grow up and be an independent person . But we always need parents in our lives, that is my opinion.

 

[Angelus88]

What happened with Wood,Giles and Spike was a sensitive matter. Each one of them believes he is right, from his own point of view. And I agree with that. Wood wants to avenge his mother. Giles wanted to protect Buffy once more. Spike has a soul now so he is not responsible for what his soulless self did. And Buffy is also right. She has to fight a big fight in s7, and she doesn't give a crap about vendettas. She cares about the mission. What I understand is that Buffy has changed as a person. She was healed in the end of s6 but still there is a coldness left in her. Her relationship with Giles was one of the most wodnerful bonds in the show. Surely, she lost her trust, but I think it is possible that she can trust him again on the same level. And she also needs to grow up and be an independent person . But we always need parents in our lives, that is my opinion.

Great post and I think you make some very interesting points. Each of them did think they were doing the right thing and each one of them was doing it for selfless reasons, I feel anyway. I also think it was a very sad way for things to end between Buffy and Giles after everything they had been through. Giles sacrificed more or less seven years of his life to protect Buffy and watch over her and even though he didnt get it perfect every time, he is human and nobody is right every time. He gave up pretty much his entire social life, friendships and dating to take care of the Scoobies and after everything he had done for her (and that she did for him too) I just think it was a sad way to see things end because I can see where each character was coming from and Giles was only trying to do his best by Buffy and the Scoobies even if she didnt see it that way. I hope the relationship improves in S8 but havent really got into yet so cant comment on that.

 

[white avenger]

This is one of those issues that I think actually could have been addressed if Season 8 had begun as soon after Season 7 ended as all of the other seasons followed each other. I have always hoped that, at some point soon after leaving the Sunnydale crater, Giles and Buffy sat down and discussed the fight against the First as it progressed throughout the season (Giles is, after all, still a Watcher, and dedicated to recording these things) I would like to imagine that Giles would have been man enough to admit that, as sincere as his motives were at the time, in retrospect, Buffy's assessment of Spike's true nature had been right and his had been flawed. I think that something like that would have been a major step in reestablishing some degree of the trust that Buffy had previously had for him. Even if it did happen in some similar way to that, however, Sadly, I don't think that their previous degree of trust could ever be regained, especially considering the recent events in Season 8.