Giles and Willow.. killers?

[PrincessBuffy16]

So, I've been thinking about Giles killing Ben that was inspired about all the plot holes in The Gift.

I think we all agree, well most of us, Buffy couldn't kill Ben, because she's a hero. She's not a killer, and after all the events that happened in her life, she could never kill someone who is in her book innocent. She couldn't kill Ben even with a knowledge there is a posibility of Glory coming back.

Ben: "She could have killed me."
Giles: "No she couldn't. Never... She's a hero, you see. She's not like us."

So is that comparable with Willow killing Warren? I mean, both of them were humans, and they were killed so they can do no evil anymore, even if Ben is innocent, Glory can't live without him, is it ok to kill one person to prevent some other seriously evil events? And Willow killing Warren, no one could promise he wouldn't do anymore evil.
The one difference is that Giles doesn't feel guilty, well he doesn't show it, but we see that Willow is fighting with it through whole season 7.
And I've read some people Giles as hero about killing Ben, he did something even Buffy couldn't, he wanted to protect people by killing Ben.

Thoughts?

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

The difference is that Warren is human. He can be controlled by human means, through the human legal and penal system, and he committed a human crime. Giles wasn't killing Ben. He was killing the potential for Glory returning. Even the Slayer could barely handle Glory. There is no other option - either Ben dies or the potential lives on. Imprisoning him, or handing him over to the police would do nothing to stop that.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

It's not comparable. One reason is that Warren could have been arrested and certainly gone to prison for shooting Buffy and killing Tara. You couldn't say the same for Ben/Glory.

Willow's desire for vengeance was understandable but I think Giles was more 'in the right' with what he did. And while he wasn't regretful for an entire season over it, during the scene you could tell he wasn't pleased with what he had to do.

I think we all agree, well most of us, Buffy couldn't kill Ben, because she's a hero. She's not a killer, and after all the events that happened in her life, she could never kill someone who is in her book innocent. She couldn't kill Ben even with a knowledge there is a posibility of Glory coming back.

She was willing to kill her friends if they tried to stop the ritual but she wouldn't kill the guy who was an actual threat. I did NOT get that.

 

[crazysoulless]

You phrased it "to stop the ritual". It was obviously more complicated than that. They would have murdered her daughter/little sister/the being that was only in human form so Buffy could protect her. They would have been extremely justified but it didn't make it any easier to hear someone give "murder Dawn" as an option right after Buffy went catatonic at having watched her get kidnapped. It would be like Angel having to hear the Fang Gang saying they should murder Connor in S3. By BtVS S7/AtS S4 both Buffy and Angel were more willing to consider it but the first year they even had Dawn and Connor was too soon since they felt so protective over them and knew despite being a teenager they weren't alive the previous year.

I think that killing someone because their blood started a ritual and only their blood no longer flowing can end it is different from killing someone because that would also kill a powerful enemy that you don't yet know how to kill in another way.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

Ben was human too. To me the difference is intent. Giles did what he had to do to save the world. It was morally ambiguous. Killing Ben was wrong, but he prevented future attempts by Glory to destroy things. It was the only way to be sure Glory was gone forever. Willow killed Warren for revenge. He could have been dealt with in any number of ways, but he killed Tara and she wanted him dead. It was nothing but vengeance.

 

[Icarium]

While I really don't think the two kills are comparable, morality-wise at all, I'd like to point out that Ben is not really an innocent. In Listening to Fear he summoned the Queller demon to kill the people driven mad by Glory. Sure, Giles didn't know that but this still this needs to be pointed out.

The difference is that Warren is human. He can be controlled by human means, through the human legal and penal system, and he committed a human crime. Giles wasn't killing Ben. He was killing the potential for Glory returning. Even the Slayer could barely handle Glory. There is no other option - either Ben dies or the potential lives on. Imprisoning him, or handing him over to the police would do nothing to stop that.

Exactly. Willow was driven by revenge, Giles by necessity.

 

[BuffyElevated]

Even though Giles DID murder Ben, I saw it was a necessity to stop Glory from returning to wreak havoc on Buffy after stopping her from getting home. Giles made a very hard choice, and even though it was wrong of him, he knew he had to do it.
Willow acted, however, solely out of anger and revenge. True, Warren needed to be punished, but Willow had no right to take his life. Willow got away with playing God.

 

[redheadboi19]

She was willing to kill her friends if they tried to stop the ritual but she wouldn't kill the guy who was an actual threat. I did NOT get that.

I do get that. She would have done anything to protect her sister. She did not see Ben as a direct threat to Dawn in that moment. But she would have hurt anyone who seriously intended to hurt Dawn. There is a difference in saving the world and saving your family!

 

[Anya2012]

Willow acted, however, solely out of anger and revenge. True, Warren needed to be punished, but Willow had no right to take his life. Willow got away with playing God.

Like prison. That would been a suitable punishment. I hated the fact Willow got away with what the Scoobies believed in, never kill humans.

 

[redheadboi19]

Honestly I sided with Willow in what she did to Warren. He killed the love of her life. She didn't know how to go on without Tara and she could not bring Tara back. She had given up magic before to get Tara back. There were a lot of things that led of up it but if you really listen to her and know her then it is clear she gave up magic to win Tara back. That is all she wanted. She supressed the power inside her and let it build up. When she lost Tara she lost the wall that was holding that power back. She lost herself. I do not blame willow. When she realised what she had done she greived because of it. She felt she desirved to die for her mistakes. That shows she is still our Willow. She always cares


Im not sure about Giles. I know he had to stop Ben to stop Glory from comeing back but my view of Giles changed after that. And to look back now I dont truly care for Giles very much. He is so cold. He posioned Buffy in season 3. He was a jerk at the start of 4. He killed Ben without feeling and told Buffy to kill her own sister!!. And then he left Buffy when she needed him the most. I lost all my respect for him and I don't care for him at all. I think he should have died in "Chosen" insted of Anya

 

[DoughnutHole]

I do get that. She would have done anything to protect her sister. She did not see Ben as a direct threat to Dawn in that moment. But she would have hurt anyone who seriously intended to hurt Dawn. There is a difference in saving the world and saving your family!

I'm sorry, but I can't abide by that statement. And I've been reading it a lot... Dawn was her family, nothing compares... blah blah.

I said it in another thread, but I'll say it again. It's hard for me to agree with that because I'm not particularly fond of Dawn, and this is a show that I'd watched for four years before she even came into the picture. The fact is that every single memory Buffy had of her was a fabrication. Meanwhile, I got to witness first-hand how the relationships between the scoobies developed S1-S4.

HOWEVER, before I get eaten alive... I understand that for Buffy, those memories were incredibly real. They did share the same blood... Dawn was a piece of Buffy. And the monks put her in Buffy's care with those memories so that she would protect her at any cost. I get it. And I can only imagine the devotion she must have felt.

But at the same time, as a slayer, there are things that have to be done. And to imply that your friends, the same friends who have fought side by side with you, supported you, and been a major piece of what makes you so powerful... simply come in second to a thing that's only technically been around for a year... see, I have trouble with that.

I see both sides. But I just can't agree with the idea that it's reasonable to risk so much for it... But that's just me. *shrugs*

And back to the topic at hand. I think it's clear why Giles loved and felt so devoted to Willow. He probably saw a lot of himself in her. Sometimes it scared him. The difference, however, in their crimes was that he had to kill Ben. Whereas Willow simply lost control. A switch went off... Which is something completely human, but it happened to someone with super-human capabilities. Which obviously ended badly...

 

[BuffyElevated]

Wishing4Hope disagrees: Well Willow, as bad as she was and what she did, she was also under the influence of magic. And bringing Buffy back was as much as a necessity as Giles was to killing Ben. Without Buffy all the demons would have started taking rein over everything.

I never said I didn't agree with Willow bringing Buffy back. I was ecstatic when she did that, although I was so sad when I found out Buffy had been in Heaven and Willow had ripped her out of there. 🙁
I know the magic had influence over Willow, but she was the one who invited the magic in. Maybe she didn't fully understand the power she was invoking when she stuck her hands into those books, but WILLOW did that, and no one else.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

Obviously I was glad they brought Buffy back, but it felt wrong anyway. Turns out it was wrong considering she was in heaven. But yeah, what would have happened to the world without her? There was no way for them to know Faith would reform and even so, could she have pulled it off by herself? It seems like the answer to that is no.

 

[Icarium]

I do get that. She would have done anything to protect her sister. She did not see Ben as a direct threat to Dawn in that moment. But she would have hurt anyone who seriously intended to hurt Dawn. There is a difference in saving the world and saving your family!

Before Buffy got her revelation in the nick of time, the choice in case they didn't get to Dawn before the ritual started was not "save Dawn or save the world" it was "kill Dawn or the world and Dawn go to hell". But even if it was "Dawn survives" or "the world survives" there is no way I would support Buffy going for the former.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

There was no way for them to know Faith would reform and even so, could she have pulled it off by herself? It seems like the answer to that is no.

They could have called Angel and asked.