Giles And Xander On Angel

[thetopher]

After the end of S1 of Angel Joss Whedon indicated in interviews that he would've liked to see Nick Brendon on Angel so that Xander and Cordelia could have their story resolved satisfactorily, and that both AH and ASH had eepressed a strong desire to appear in future episodes of Angel.

Given that AH got her wish (in S4's 'Orpheus' which showed S7 Willow at her best; funny and powerful and most Willow-like) where would you have liked to have put Xander and Giles in the overall scheme of things- where would they have added something to the Angel storyline.


With Xander, I would've put him in S3. We have two plots on either show that dovetail nicely together- Xander's just proposed to Anya in 'All The Way' and the whole Cangel thing is just getting started over on Angel.

So, rather than have Fred and Lorne be all 'nudge, nudge' wink' with Angel about Cordelia (so, very, very lame), have Xander sudenly turn up at AI.
After proposing to Anya Xander has got to thinking about his last significant relationship (and how things went wrong with it) so he headed over to LA to look up his ex and reconcile with her/tell her the news.
He and Cordy have both changed somewhat (the writers could have some fun with this- callbacks to their relationship and such) but the two of them still spark/have chemistry. Xander brings out a side of Cordy that the viewer hasn't seen in a while.

This could lead to Angel getting pettily jealous (as is his way) because hey, it's Xander and these two have never gotten along.
At first Angel thinks this is just Xander rubbing him the wrong way but maybe after a talk with Lorne he starts to think that its maybe something more to do with Cordelia than 'the guy who's always bugged him'.
That gives us a more organic beginning to the whole Cangel business, we can round out the Cordy/Xander nostalgia and have the two of them make peace and maybe we could foreshadow Xander's own doubts when it comes to his upcoming wedding day (which were pretty much absent after 'ATW' as I remember)

Giles I would stick in S5 where he was meant to have been. Post-S6 Giles tends to be depicted as an utter asshat so it would've nice for him to actually appear so the writers might've been bothered to have Giles explain his resistance to Angel at W&H, the whole Fred/Illyria plot and other issues that would never be addressed later on.

Any other thoughts?

 

[Wesley Pryce]

After the end of S1 of Angel Joss Whedon indicated in interviews that he would've liked to see Nick Brendon on Angel so that Xander and Cordelia could have their story resolved satisfactorily, and that both AH and ASH had eepressed a strong desire to appear in future episodes of Angel.

Given that AH got her wish (in S4's 'Orpheus' which showed S7 Willow at her best; funny and powerful and most Willow-like) where would you have liked to have put Xander and Giles in the overall scheme of things- where would they have added something to the Angel storyline.


With Xander, I would've put him in S3. We have two plots on either show that dovetail nicely together- Xander's just proposed to Anya in 'All The Way' and the whole Cangel thing is just getting started over on Angel.

So, rather than have Fred and Lorne be all 'nudge, nudge' wink' with Angel about Cordelia (so, very, very lame), have Xander sudenly turn up at AI.
After proposing to Anya Xander has got to thinking about his last significant relationship (and how things went wrong with it) so he headed over to LA to look up his ex and reconcile with her/tell her the news.
He and Cordy have both changed somewhat (the writers could have some fun with this- callbacks to their relationship and such) but the two of them still spark/have chemistry. Xander brings out a side of Cordy that the viewer hasn't seen in a while.

This could lead to Angel getting pettily jealous (as is his way) because hey, it's Xander and these two have never gotten along.
At first Angel thinks this is just Xander rubbing him the wrong way but maybe after a talk with Lorne he starts to think that its maybe something more to do with Cordelia than 'the guy who's always bugged him'.
That gives us a more organic beginning to the whole Cangel business, we can round out the Cordy/Xander nostalgia and have the two of them make peace and maybe we could foreshadow Xander's own doubts when it comes to his upcoming wedding day (which were pretty much absent after 'ATW' as I remember)

Giles I would stick in S5 where he was meant to have been. Post-S6 Giles tends to be depicted as an utter asshat so it would've nice for him to actually appear so the writers might've been bothered to have Giles explain his resistance to Angel at W&H, the whole Fred/Illyria plot and other issues that would never be addressed later on.

Any other thoughts?

The Lorne and Fred thing isn't lame. That was realistic, your friends see things you don't see. 
As far as Xander goes, I don't want him on Angel. ASH was supposed to be in " a hole in the world" but the WB wouldn't pay for the plane costs. I'm glad it worked out the way it did though, Drogan is a fun character.

 

[Silverspike]

"ASH was supposed to be in " a hole in the world""

Blimey, really? I've not heard that before. Where did you hear that?

I don't think Xander would be a good fit on Angel really. Personally I'm quite happy with how things played out in the show.

 

[Wesley Pryce]

"ASH was supposed to be in " a hole in the world""

Blimey, really? I've not heard that before. Where did you hear that?

I don't think Xander would be a good fit on Angel really. Personally I'm quite happy with how things played out in the show.

I think its on the commentary to "A hole in the world" but I may be mistaken, I might have read it somewhere else. In any case , I agree with you, things turned out very well. 
I would have liked to see Tara and Willow on more Angel eps though. I would even be friendly to the idea of Willow becoming a main cast addition. Also Oz was planned for season 6, that would have worked I think, I love "into the dark" (Angel 1:3), Oz worked well with Angel chemistry wise.

 

[thetopher]

The Lorne and Fred thing isn't lame. That was realistic, your friends see things you don't see.

We'll agree to disagree. Not the idea, but the execution was awful.
Personally I hated the 'Kyrumption/Pylea' baby-talk, not to mention the creeping use of the word 'champion' that started to enter the S3 show. I just kept on rolling my eyes.

As far as Xander goes, I don't want him on Angel.

Well the point is that Joss wanted him and NB expressed an interest.
Personally I think it would've been fun to see Xander and Cordelia see how much they've changed- I think Xander would've been shocked and pleased to see how much Cordy had matured/grown.

ASH was supposed to be in " a hole in the world" but the WB wouldn't pay for the plane costs. I'm glad it worked out the way it did though, Drogan is a fun character.

Drogan was utterly dull imo, mainly because I can't even remember what he looks like or any of the lines of dialogue he spoke- he was a vacuum. I remember his role in the story as guardian of the Deeper Well and, more importantly, truth teller.
He was there to fill the role that Giles would've had, and I much would've prefered ASH.

The only scenes I remember Drogan in are him and Illyria playing a video game and then him getting murdered by Angel. I struggled to care.

 

[Silverspike]

"Well the point is that Joss wanted him"

Really? Where exactly did he say that then, cos I've yet to find any evidence of that coming from Whedon.

Also by the time of season 5 of AtS I think poor old Nick Brendon had burnt his bridges when it came to Joss and co due to his own personal health issues which had started to become a problem as far back as season 4 of Buffy. Somehow I doubt that Joss would want to risk anything by bringing him over for this.

 

[VisionBoy]

I've always found it hard to picture Xander on Ats... that having been said, I would have loved a conclusion to his relationship with Cordy and I do like your idea about the Cangel reveal. I'd definitely go with season 3, pre-Groosalug. Xander seeing how much Cordelia changed and Cordelia seeing Xander engaged would be interesting. Also, we never saw anyone from BTVS react to Conner (unless I'm forgetting someone?), so there's that too.

Giles in season 5 also would have been interesting. I'd certainly take him over two Andrew appearances, but that's just me. But yeah, it would've been good to actually hear the "we won't help Fred" stuff from them, actually explain themselves. To have that controversial reaction from them over an unheard phone call was... eh, not so good.

 

[white avenger]

I can't imagine either Giles or Xander fitting into the ongoing story line of "Angel." There is, however, one scene that was absolutely made for Xander, in my opinion. At the end of "Damage," when the team of Slayers takes charge of Dana, the entire "Buffy doesn't trust you anymore, Angel," speech was pure Xander, and totally out of character for Andrew.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

So, rather than have Fred and Lorne be all 'nudge, nudge' wink' with Angel about Cordelia (so, very, very lame), have Xander sudenly turn up at AI.
After proposing to Anya Xander has got to thinking about his last significant relationship (and how things went wrong with it) so he headed over to LA to look up his ex and reconcile with her/tell her the news.
He and Cordy have both changed somewhat (the writers could have some fun with this- callbacks to their relationship and such) but the two of them still spark/have chemistry. Xander brings out a side of Cordy that the viewer hasn't seen in a while.

While bringing Xander into the Cangel atmosphere would have been very intriguing (especially after his ironic line to Cordy in 'Halloween' "Face it, you'll never come between those two" meaning Angel and Buffy) I disagree with this particular particular arrangement.

Xander and Cordelia never had chemistry let alone should still have it in an AtS reunion, he never valued her as anything but a pretty face nor had an issue expressing how useless and stupid he thought she was. This is something she'd understand at this point after having Angel in her life, someone who believed in her, made her feel important and cared about how she felt.
The first cut is the deepest right? That's what Xander was to her and we saw with the Angel/Trial arc that she doesn't forgive personal betrayal easily. That's what would provoke Angel's protectiveness of Cordy which I agree is inevitable, Angel would absolutely never tolerate a man who hurt her coming anywhere near her (think Wilson in 'Expecting' and the commercial director in 'Bargaining').
It's possible that Xander would try to claim that he wanted her back solely on the basis that she'd become someone valuable now (and as an attempt to get over Anya if BTVS were at that point), but Cordy would never go for it.

I'd put this in the second half of Season 3 though in place of Groo.

I feel there was a huge missed opportunity with there never being a Scooby/AI crossover. The Scoobies should have gotten to see how well Cordelia and Wesley had evolved.

On another note, Lorne's and Fred's Kyrumption talks were not lame in my opinion. That was two people who have been around Angel and Cordelia for some time who wanted to open Angel's eyes to what he was refusing to see right in front of him. It was an act of deep friendship which portrayed how much they believed in him as Angel not Angelus because they felt he deserved such a miracle and to be with such an amazing woman.
It was actually also a significant turning point in Angel's realization on Lorne's part because in his scene he points out a reading he got from Angel while he sung Connor to sleep which received a very defensive response. That was kind of a big confirmation to the audience that Angel was in fact in love with Cordelia.
As a general concept, someone urging a friend to go for it is actually quite realistic. Actually possibly more so than an Ex suddenly showing up and opening up old wounds.

As for adding Giles into AtS, I'd have liked that as well but am not sure what his role would be.

 

[Wesley Pryce]

While bringing Xander into the Cangel atmosphere would have been very intriguing (especially after his ironic line to Cordy in 'Halloween' "Face it, you'll never come between those two" meaning Angel and Buffy) I disagree with this particular particular arrangement.

Xander and Cordelia never had chemistry let alone should still have it in an AtS reunion, he never valued her as anything but a pretty face nor had an issue expressing how useless and stupid he thought she was. This is something she'd understand at this point after having Angel in her life, someone who believed in her, made her feel important and cared about how she felt.
The first cut is the deepest right? That's what Xander was to her and we saw with the Angel/Trial arc that she doesn't forgive personal betrayal easily. That's what would provoke Angel's protectiveness of Cordy which I agree is inevitable, Angel would absolutely never tolerate a man who hurt her coming anywhere near her (think Wilson in 'Expecting' and the commercial director in 'Bargaining').
It's possible that Xander would try to claim that he wanted her back solely on the basis that she'd become someone valuable now (and as an attempt to get over Anya if BTVS were at that point), but Cordy would never go for it.

I'd put this in the second half of Season 3 though in place of Groo.

I feel there was a huge missed opportunity with there never being a Scooby/AI crossover. The Scoobies should have gotten to see how well Cordelia and Wesley had evolved.

On another note, Lorne's and Fred's Kyrumption talks were not lame in my opinion. That was two people who have been around Angel and Cordelia for some time who wanted to open Angel's eyes to what he was refusing to see right in front of him. It was an act of deep friendship which portrayed how much they believed in him as Angel not Angelus because they felt he deserved such a miracle and to be with such an amazing woman.
It was actually also a significant turning point in Angel's realization on Lorne's part because in his scene he points out a reading he got from Angel while he sung Connor to sleep which received a very defensive response. That was kind of a big confirmation to the audience that Angel was in fact in love with Cordelia.
As a general concept, someone urging a friend to go for it is actually quite realistic. Actually possibly more so than an Ex suddenly showing up and opening up old wounds.

As for adding Giles into AtS, I'd have liked that as well but am not sure what his role would be.

agree completely

 

[thetopher]

Xander and Cordelia never had chemistry let alone should still have it in an AtS reunion, he never valued her as anything but a pretty face nor had an issue expressing how useless and stupid he thought she was. This is something she'd understand at this point after having Angel in her life, someone who believed in her, made her feel important and cared about how she felt.
The first cut is the deepest right? That's what Xander was to her and we saw with the Angel/Trial arc that she doesn't forgive personal betrayal easily.

Interersting. I never thought of these two in such negative terms, firstly because always Cordelia gave as good as she got with Xander. He called her shallow/'easy', she called him a loser/dork. She was a queen bee and he was the class clown. After they broke up they went back to the roles they knew around each other.

Secondly I never thought that Cordelia was hurt by words but by actions.
Xander's betrayal when she saw him kissing Willow, Angel firing her, Angel selling all her clothes. Just like Cordelia forgives when she sees contrition in actions- not Angel humbling himself and apologising to the gang, but saying sorry by buying her NEW clothes.
Also when Xander buys Cordelia that dress in 'The Prom' that she's been working so hard for they end up reconciling to an extent. They're not what they were but they are friendly.

I feel there was a huge missed opportunity with there never being a Scooby/AI crossover. The Scoobies should have gotten to see how well Cordelia and Wesley had evolved.

Agreed. We saw Willow and Buffy appear in terrific episodes, I see no reason why Giles and Xander couldn't have done the same and added something special. Also seeing how Cordy and Wesley had changed would've been a nice bonus.

On another note, Lorne's and Fred's Kyrumption talks were not lame in my opinion. That was two people who have been around Angel and Cordelia for some time who wanted to open Angel's eyes to what he was refusing to see right in front of him.

Again I saw the opposite view. I saw two (at this point) virtual strangers to the gang viewing Angel and Cordelia with fresh eyes- which is why their judgement is so shallow imo.
Lorne is intuitive alright, but he hasn't seen Angel and Cordelia interact that much previously and suddenly he's saying its destiny?
Fred doesn't even have that- she's a dreamy romantic ('handsome man saved me from the monsters') and has only recently dared to come out her hotel room/cave to interact with the world again. All of what Fred says to Angel could easily be shrugged off as her projecting onto an old friendship.

But imagine Xander being the catalyst, knowingly or (more likely) unknowingly. His arrival started Cordy thinking back to those high school days and about how back in the day she had a major crush on tall, dark and broody.
And Angel it would be him reacting (or overreacting) to Xander's and Cordy's (friendly) chemistry.
Maybe Xander realises something/misinterpets and comments to Cordelia, she brushes him off but Angel overhears, gets him thinking.

I happen to think that wouldn't have been so clumsy a start to the whole Cangel drama. Much more organic, referencing their initial attraction on BtVS to how the journey has taken them to where they are now.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

Secondly I never thought that Cordelia was hurt by words but by actions.
Xander's betrayal when she saw him kissing Willow, Angel firing her, Angel selling all her clothes. Just like Cordelia forgives when she sees contrition in actions- not Angel humbling himself and apologising to the gang, but saying sorry by buying her NEW clothes.

That's exactly what I was referring to, I never said she'd felt betrayed by anyone's words.

Lorne is intuitive alright, but he hasn't seen Angel and Cordelia interact that much previously and suddenly he's saying its destiny?

Fred doesn't even have that- she's a dreamy romantic ('handsome man saved me from the monsters') and has only recently dared to come out her hotel room/cave to interact with the world again. All of what Fred says to Angel could easily be shrugged off as her projecting onto an old friendship.

Normally I'd agree but destiny is what Lorne sees when someone sings, it's his gift, with Fred I see your point, but Angel was always pretty transparent about his feelings for Cordelia. 'That Vision Thing' for example.

But imagine Xander being the catalyst, knowingly or (more likely) unknowingly. His arrival started Cordy thinking back to those high school days and about how back in the day she had a major crush on tall, dark and broody.
And Angel it would be him reacting (or overreacting) to Xander's and Cordy's (friendly) chemistry.
Maybe Xander realises something/misinterpets and comments to Cordelia, she brushes him off but Angel overhears, gets him thinking.

I happen to think that wouldn't have been so clumsy a start to the whole Cangel drama. Much more organic, referencing their initial attraction on BtVS to how the journey has taken them to where they are now.

Interesting because I'd imagined that Cordelia's reaction to Xander would be an unwanted reminder of her Sunnydale self which she now hates.

And I still say he'd fit in best in place of Groo. I didn't like that whole thing, I've been finding love triangles irritating since I got over Twilight in 2012.

 

[bespangeled]

The Lorne and Fred thing isn't lame. That was realistic, your friends see things you don't see. 
As far as Xander goes, I don't want him on Angel. ASH was supposed to be in " a hole in the world" but the WB wouldn't pay for the plane costs. I'm glad it worked out the way it did though, Drogan is a fun character.

ASH was supposed to be in HITW? That would have changed everything - Willow would have arrived to save Fred. Buffy would have showed up to snag a vamp...nope. can't see it. Though Xander and Jasmine would make an interesting couple! Or Xander and Illyria. 

"Well the point is that Joss wanted him"

Really? Where exactly did he say that then, cos I've yet to find any evidence of that coming from Whedon.

Also by the time of season 5 of AtS I think poor old Nick Brendon had burnt his bridges when it came to Joss and co due to his own personal health issues which had started to become a problem as far back as season 4 of Buffy. Somehow I doubt that Joss would want to risk anything by bringing him over for this.

Particularly after dealing with Doyle. I also think Cordy had evolved, and Xander devolved. I can't see anyone taking on a project like that - there was too much going on.

Also, I hate, loath and detest the word kyrumption to the point where I want to stick my fingers in my ears and sing 'lalala'

 

[Wesley Pryce]

That's exactly what I was referring to, I never said she'd felt betrayed by anyone's words.




Normally I'd agree but destiny is what Lorne sees when someone sings, it's his gift, with Fred I see your point, but Angel was always pretty transparent about his feelings for Cordelia. 'That Vision Thing' for example.



Interesting because I'd imagined that Cordelia's reaction to Xander would be an unwanted reminder of her Sunnydale self which she now hates.

And I still say he'd fit in best in place of Groo. I didn't like that whole thing, I've been finding love triangles irritating since I got over Twilight in 2012.

Groo was one of the funniest characters of the entire verse. And both love triangles served a large purpose of progressing the overall plot. Wesley was cut off from Fred and Gunn because he felt bitter about losing Fred to Gunn so Wes doesn't tell them about the prophecy. The one person Wesley would have told other than them is Cordy and she gets sent away by Angel also because of the love triangle of Groo, Cordy and Angel. So these love triangles weren't just there for the drama sake like on Buffy, but were there to further the seasons story. Also don't ever compare ATS to twilight again lol or ill start world war 3 😛 

Groo was one of the funniest characters of the entire verse. And both love triangles served a large purpose of progressing the overall plot. Wesley was cut off from Fred and Gunn because he felt bitter about losing Fred to Gunn so Wes doesn't tell them about the prophecy. The one person Wesley would have told other than them is Cordy and she gets sent away by Angel also because of the love triangle of Groo, Cordy and Angel. So these love triangles weren't just there for the drama sake like on Buffy, but were there to further the seasons story. Also don't ever compare ATS to twilight again lol or ill start world war 3 😛

Kyrumption!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Cordy_Chase]

Groo was one of the funniest characters of the entire verse. And both love triangles served a large purpose of progressing the overall plot. Wesley was cut off from Fred and Gunn because he felt bitter about losing Fred to Gunn so Wes doesn't tell them about the prophecy. The one person Wesley would have told other than them is Cordy and she gets sent away by Angel also because of the love triangle of Groo, Cordy and Angel. So these love triangles weren't just there for the drama sake like on Buffy, but were there to further the seasons story.

Sorry, I am not following but I disagree that the love triangles of AtS served any importance and I actually I disliked Fred/Gunn. It was pretty clear that they didn't really connect.

Also don't ever compare ATS to twilight again lol or ill start world war 3 😛

I made no comparison, I only stated that Twilight made me sick of love triangles and it was after I'd gotten over my Twilight fetish that I'd watched BTVS and Angel. So that is a big reason the Groo arc irritated me.

 

[Wesley Pryce]

Sorry, I am not following but I disagree that the love triangles of AtS served any importance and I actually I disliked Fred/Gunn. It was pretty clear that they didn't really connect.


I made no comparison, I only stated that Twilight made me sick of love triangles and it was after I'd gotten over my Twilight fetish that I'd watched BTVS and Angel. So that is a big reason the Groo arc irritated me.

What aren't you following? YES, it was important to the story arc. That can't even be denied. Wesley would never have betrayed Angel if Cordy would've been there, and he would've told Fred and Gunn if they were still on good terms. Wesley's betrayal leads to Conner being taken to Kortoth (forgive me if I spelled this wrong lol) which leads to the showdown between Angel and Sajahn and Conners return and Holtz return etc etc. To change the love triangles would alter the entire course of the whole series from there on in my opinion. That was my basic point.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

What aren't you following? YES, it was important to the story arc. That can't even be denied. Wesley would never have betrayed Angel if Cordy would've been there, and he would've told Fred and Gunn if they were still on good terms. Wesley's betrayal leads to Conner being taken to Kortoth (forgive me if I spelled this wrong lol) which leads to the showdown between Angel and Sajahn and Conners return and Holtz return etc etc. To change the love triangles would alter the entire course of the whole series from there on in my opinion. That was my basic point.

You're saying it's because of the love triangles that Wes didn't tell anyone about the whole 'The father will kill the son' prophecy? That's speculation, and there is a flaw in it, why wouldn't he just approach Angel himself?!
Perhaps you shouldn't answer that though, it's leading off topic.

 

[janas]

You're saying it's because of the love triangles that Wes didn't tell anyone about the whole 'The father will kill the son' prophecy?

Off topic
You know what? Yes, I've always thought it 🙂
end Off topic

 

[AnthonyCordova]

After the end of S1 of Angel Joss Whedon indicated in interviews that he would've liked to see Nick Brendon on Angel so that Xander and Cordelia could have their story resolved satisfactorily, and that both AH and ASH had eepressed a strong desire to appear in future episodes of Angel.

I hate the idea. I'm glad it never happened. Xander doesn't fit anywhere in the show. I like how they kept things different for the most part with both shows, and I like that the crossovers were kept to a minimum. Xander works on Buffy but on Angel he doesn't fit and doesn't belong. It would feel ingratiating and pandering (to super fan boys and fan girls) to me. Xander especially would feel like a boy on the set of adults (Angel). I know he dated Cordy, but it's the immaturity of his as well as the nature of the character on Buffy.

Devoting an episode to Xander apologizing to Cordy would be a waste in my opinion. He was a blip, a high school boyfriend for a short time to Cordy (how long was it in real time, 9 months? Something like that?). And she was waaaay past Xander by the time he might show up on Angel. And it would be trivial high school drama being brought to the Angel show for no reason. I like that Angel has a distinct adult feeling. Why use an episode to drudge up high school stuff in Season 3? That's ancient history by Angel S3. It would make more of the Xander and Cordy (brief) relationship than it really was. Like everything, the further removed from high school we get, the more we all realize how unimportant all of that stuff was. Everyone gets their hearts broken in high school, but age adds perspective and then we realize much later what the hell love really is when we are older and more mature. Making a big deal out of old and trivial things like high school relationships is so...high school.

And I like keeping relationship drama to a minimum just in general anyway. I guess that's why I'm not a shipper.

I don't think they are sparking at all either, Cordy and Xander. Cordy is so passed him by season 1, not to speak of S3.

Giles could fit somewhere much better on Angel. For an episode maybe. Maybe when Angelus was around. S5 is hard to envision him in, unless it wasn't strictly arc related.

 

[janas]

I don't remember where I read it, but I think Joss said that Xander would never appeared on ATS.