Giles And Xander On Angel

[AnthonyCordova]

I feel there was a huge missed opportunity with there never being a Scooby/AI crossover. The Scoobies should have gotten to see how well Cordelia and Wesley had evolved.

I liked your post, but why this? why for this reason? If there was a good story reason for scoobies to show up on Angel, than that would be one thing, but just because they have to see, they have to know, that Wes and Cordy turned out well? That doesn't matter, it would be a waste of story time for this reason alone. That's life, people from our past don't always see what we've become. I like that, it feels realistic. Like life moves on, and the divergence of the shows show that. Unless their is a good story reason for scoobies to turn up on Angel, like Willow S4. 

Also when Xander buys Cordelia that dress in 'The Prom' that she's been working so hard for they end up reconciling to an extent. They're not what they were but they are friendly.

My feeling is that's already enough. More would be kind of redundant in my opinion. Old horse being kicked around again unecessarily. And not every string needs to be tied up in a neat knot. 
P.S. @thetopher I wonder if my posts sometimes sound belligerent or antagonistic when I read them afterwards sometimes. I never actually am. You know I often like your posts and I like you and shit. I like all you guys and girls!

 

[janas]

...but why this? why for this reason? If there was a good story reason for scoobies to show up on Angel, than that would be one thing, but just because they have to see, they have to know, that Wes and Cordy turned out well?

In addition this is really happened and it was done well. Faith and Willow knows that Cordy and Wes have changed and I don't think it was necessary to go further.

 

[VisionBoy]

Just for the record, I say i have trouble imagining Xander on Ats... but to be honest, I'd probably say the same about Oz or Andrew had they not been in it.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

Devoting an episode to Xander apologizing to Cordy would be a waste in my opinion. He was a blip, a high school boyfriend for a short time to Cordy (how long was it in real time, 9 months? Something like that?). And she was waaaay past Xander by the time he might show up on Angel. And it would be trivial high school drama being brought to the Angel show for no reason.

That's the thing, the way I see it Xander actually devolved over the course of the BTVS series while Cordy evolved throughout AtS, so I believe that if he did try to apologize it wouldn't be for the right reason. It would be because he'd be embarrassed seeing what she'd become after the way he'd treated her, and only because she was now good for something would he find her worthwhile, and entitled to respect.

I still believe as well that Cordy would only see his appearance as an unwanted reminder of her Sunnydale self which she'd worked hard to bury, so bad blood and conflict is all Xander would bring, which I'm not saying wouldn't be interesting, it totally would be, but it would also be meaningless to the storyline, I agree with you there.

I liked your post, but why this? why for this reason? If there was a good story reason for scoobies to show up on Angel, than that would be one thing, but just because they have to see, they have to know, that Wes and Cordy turned out well? That doesn't matter, it would be a waste of story time for this reason alone. That's life, people from our past don't always see what we've become. I like that, it feels realistic. Like life moves on, and the divergence of the shows show that. Unless their is a good story reason for scoobies to turn up on Angel, like Willow S4.

Whoa, you took a very unspecific sentence and made a lot of assumptions. Maybe "a huge missed opportunity"' was too strong a phrase but still "They have to see, they have to know" is nowhere near what I was proposing. Never did I say that this was reason enough alone for the concept nor that Cordelia's character absolutely needed the approval of the Scoobies. I just thought that since AtS was meant to contrast BTVS with experienced adults vs. adolescents that it would have been interesting to see that contrast in a literal form on the screen. In addition, as I mentioned a connecting event back to that line of Xander's in 'Halloween' about Cordelia never coming between Angel and Buffy would have been clever. Just because I think it would be intriguing doesn't mean that I think it has sustenance.

You're right it doesn't. In fact, I also think it would be disrespectful to Cordelia's character to throw the past of it in her face in the way I feel Xander would. I still think however that he would have been better than Groo for the second half of the third season, just about anything would have been. I'm sorry, but the whole Groo thing really annoyed me. How Cordy could run into his arms while Angel was in the middle of an important speech is beyond me. I get that she was afraid of having to measure up to Buffy, but he was clearly trying to invalidate that right then...and I digress.


For the record, though I was not the one being asked, I don't find you belligerent or antagonistic @AnthonyCordova, I find you very insightful as are most of the folks here.
I myself hope I do not often sound stupid and subjective, as once I see some of the responses I receive I often wonder how I did not come to that conclusion from the start. I always do my best to be researched and valid.

 

[VisionBoy]

I'm not sure Cordelia would mind Xander reminding her of her highschool days. She had photo albums and kept the year book, she had no problem reminiscing with Harmony and she kept in touch with Willow. I can't imagine there being any bad blood or grudges between them... they ended their time together at Sunnydale High in a friendly way and they'd both moved on with their lives in different ways. I think the water would be safely under the bridge.

 

[thetopher]

I hate the idea. I'm glad it never happened. Xander doesn't fit anywhere in the show. I like how they kept things different for the most part with both shows, and I like that the crossovers were kept to a minimum.

I don't really understand this, since all the crossover episodes were of a distinctly high quality- 'In The Dark', 'IWRY' 'Five By Five/Sactuary', 'Darla'- in fact Drusilla on Angel is great, 'Orpheus', even 'Damage' in S5 was pretty darn good.

The only ones I don't rate highly are 'Disharmony' and 'The Girl In Question', and that's because I don't like the characters involved. Maybe lots of people just don't like Xander and want to see less of him?

Xander works on Buffy but on Angel he doesn't fit and doesn't belong.

Yeah, I would've said that about Oz and Andrew too, the not fitting in, but sometimes the contrast works well- you can portray the character in a different way than normal.

Xander especially would feel like a boy on the set of adults (Angel). I know he dated Cordy, but it's the immaturity of his as well as the nature of the character on Buffy.

That's a little harsh on Xander I think, he spent S4 floudering and by S5 was mature, in work and a relationship- he was in the process of growing up just like Cordy was.
He was still a bit of a goof/clown but I could really see getting on well with Fred (who's also goofy and likes humour), dealing with a far more confident/competent Wes and baiting Angel.

Devoting an episode to Xander apologizing to Cordy would be a waste in my opinion. He was a blip, a high school boyfriend for a short time to Cordy (how long was it in real time, 9 months? Something like that?). And she was waaaay past Xander by the time he might show up on Angel. And it would be trivial high school drama being brought to the Angel show for no reason.

I don't beleive I ever said 'apologising' they'd already made up in 'The Prom', more like re-connecting, looking up somebody you were once close with. Like Cordy/Harmony riffing on old times...still, maybe by S3 that wouldn't have worked.
But before that I think it would've been a welcome reunion- Cordy always seemed close with Willow (all the phone calls) and her relationship with Xander was far closer.

It would make more of the Xander and Cordy (brief) relationship than it really was.

From mid-season 2 to S3, that's a fair chunk of time- as much as Buffy/Riley anyway and nobody would call that ship insignificant to either of those characters.

I don't think they are sparking at all either, Cordy and Xander. Cordy is so passed him by season 1, not to speak of S3.

Maybe 'sparking' is the wrong term but I do think they had plenty of comic chemistry (its why some people like their ship to begin with) and Cordy was always pleased to see people from Sunnydale. Oz, Harmony...well, not really Buffy.
Cordy didn't really have that many romantic attatchments on Angel- there were a few nameless dates in S1, Groo and then Angel, so I think seeing her intereact with her last 'significant ex' (at least compared to what she'd had since) would've been a great opportunity for her to maybe take stock of her love life.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

They could have gone the "complete disconnect" route with Xander like they did with Wesley. Who would have thought the bumbling buffoon of BtVS would be re-invented as a badass on Ats with the capability of making the difficult decisions no one else would touch? Giles on the other hand would have no reason to change - and no reason to be there unless he was to become Faith's watcher, but that would be a bit out of character too.

Xander could hook up again with Cordy and if he were to appear, that would probably be how it would be written because these writers never met a reunited-with-an-old-flame story they didn't like. He could be the "Damsel in distress" again just as he was when Lyssa (played by Ashanti) captured him in "First Date 7ABB14" and used him to open the Seal of Danzalthar. Angel has its own core people and Xander would not be compatible with any of them.

But some of the previous opinions are right - Xander has no business being on Angel. Even after becoming a successful building contractor, he is just as immature and judgemental as he was originally. Sure, he could have replaced Andrew, but it would not have been an improvement. I think it all played out as it should have.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

@thetopher I can see how feel about it.

With regard to Xander, others would disagree but his constant joking, the difficulty he has taking things seriously, his relative immaturity, his lack of self awareness, his "act or speak first, think later" quality, his inability to control his emotions etc. Combine for a very unfavorable impression on me. He is a little better in the late seasons, but I see change in the other characters from high school to late seasons, whereas with Xander he feels the same...all of his qualities are as they were in the first season, just further elaborated upon(?). Even in s7, he seems less different 'in kind' but more just an older version of his high school self. Buffy, Willow, Cordy feel more different 'in kind'. He has thwarted maturity. Then again, I notice that about a lot of mid twenty something boys around me. It's seems like a lot of young people in the world around me feel immature and retarded in development. They should be grown up to an extent by 25 but they feel fresh out of high school still. Modern Society and culture make older boys rather than young men more often. Xander sometimes feels like one of those types. As I type this I do admit I am being harsh on him a little, but he feels a little like that, to me.

 

[janas]

He changed a lot in the comics. In season eight Xander and Faith were, in my humble opinion, the two characters who grew more than any others. I loved Xander in that season and I'm not at all a fan of Xander.

 

[Wesley Pryce]

I hate the idea. I'm glad it never happened. Xander doesn't fit anywhere in the show. I like how they kept things different for the most part with both shows, and I like that the crossovers were kept to a minimum. Xander works on Buffy but on Angel he doesn't fit and doesn't belong. It would feel ingratiating and pandering (to super fan boys and fan girls) to me. Xander especially would feel like a boy on the set of adults (Angel). I know he dated Cordy, but it's the immaturity of his as well as the nature of the character on Buffy.

Devoting an episode to Xander apologizing to Cordy would be a waste in my opinion. He was a blip, a high school boyfriend for a short time to Cordy (how long was it in real time, 9 months? Something like that?). And she was waaaay past Xander by the time he might show up on Angel. And it would be trivial high school drama being brought to the Angel show for no reason. I like that Angel has a distinct adult feeling. Why use an episode to drudge up high school stuff in Season 3? That's ancient history by Angel S3. It would make more of the Xander and Cordy (brief) relationship than it really was. Like everything, the further removed from high school we get, the more we all realize how unimportant all of that stuff was. Everyone gets their hearts broken in high school, but age adds perspective and then we realize much later what the hell love really is when we are older and more mature. Making a big deal out of old and trivial things like high school relationships is so...high school.

And I like keeping relationship drama to a minimum just in general anyway. I guess that's why I'm not a shipper.

I don't think they are sparking at all either, Cordy and Xander. Cordy is so passed him by season 1, not to speak of S3.

Giles could fit somewhere much better on Angel. For an episode maybe. Maybe when Angelus was around. S5 is hard to envision him in, unless it wasn't strictly arc related.

I want to frame this post...you nailed it 🙂

 

[The Bronze]

People are quite down on Xander here. The guy comes from a train wreck home life. He tries a few jobs to start looking after himself. He eventually finds one that he's good at and sticks with it, earning himself a promotion. He gets himself a house and a car and is self sufficient. Then in his spare time he helps to save the world. Just because he keeps his humour and sense of enjoyment I don't think that makes him immature. There's no need to change everything about yourself once you hit a certain age.

 

[thetopher]

Yeah, I was kinda surprised. Everyone's pretty much saying 'Yes' to Giles but keep that other twerp off of Angel. 😛

As far as I see it, if someone like Andrew can appear on Angel relatively successfully- see S5 'Damages'- then so can Xander. He matured just Cordelia did.

 

[Taake]

Yeah, I was kinda surprised. Everyone's pretty much saying 'Yes' to Giles but keep that other twerp off of Angel. 😛

As far as I see it, if someone like Andrew can appear on Angel relatively successfully- see S5 'Damages'- then so can Xander. He matured just Cordelia did.

And it would have been more interesting as Angel knew Xander. There's a history of tension there that could've played well on screen.

 

[The Bronze]

Yeah I certainly couldn't see Xander as a permanent feature on Angel but there's no reason a one off episode or crossover arc couldn't have been great.

 

[Silverspike]

Yeah, I was kinda surprised. Everyone's pretty much saying 'Yes' to Giles but keep that other twerp off of Angel. 😛

As far as I see it, if someone like Andrew can appear on Angel relatively successfully- see S5 'Damages'- then so can Xander. He matured just Cordelia did.

Maybe not a good example for me as I couldn't stand Andrew. Never did get what the writers fascination with him was. For he he was just a joke without a punchline.

 

[chasesummers]

I wouldn't like to see Xander going on Angel, it's just so out of place. Besides, him and Cordelia were over, and apparently they forgot each other too, just look at how they treated Cordy's death in S8, they didnt! All there was is a stupid and out-of-character-line from Buffy. Basically, everyone but Willow didn't give a rats ass, and that includes Xander, meaning that his appearance would have been very out of place like I said.

Giles would have been interesting to see on Angel though, not sure where to put him but definitely a thumbs up for that.

I feel that it would have been interesting and natural for Cordelia to return on Buffy for an episode, taking what she has left in Sunnydale for example. If I'm not mistaken, her not-so-caring parents lived there too. Plus, she'd probably meet the gang, give them a piece of the more mature Cordy 😛

 

[janas]

Plus, she'd probably meet the gang, give them a piece of the more mature Cordy 😛

I'm not sure of this, it's as if there were a kind of unwritten law, in which the characters involved in the crossover they regress in favor of the story of the moment. But I definitely would have liked to see Cordelia, at least for a time, back in Sunnydale to relive the good old times in high school.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

Yeah, if we had to revisit it and have a cordy and xander "reunion", than I would have preferred the writers and Joss to have contrived a way for Cordy to show up onto Buffy for an episode. I'll say again thought that the idea seems backwards looking to me though (xander/cordelia revisit), especially if we are talking S3. I prefer forward looking ideas.

I'm personally glad we didn't have large arcs crossing over between shows. The identities and sensibilities of both shows are too different imo. Besides, the Angel cast was large enough as it was; constant large crossover stories would have deprived us all of the precious time we were given exploring the characters on the Angel cast.

Angel has a history with a lot of the cast from Buffy, not just Xander.

There's a history of tension there that could've played well on screen.

My impression was that the tension was more on Xander's side than it ever was on Angel's. True, Angel(us) did things to Buffy and Xander that didn't allow Xander to trust him easily, but it also had a lot to do with Xander's adolescent insecurites. What would the nature of the tension be by the time of S3 of Angel? If it were the lack of trust issue, I think that would be so old and uninteresting and also nonsensical. A lot of time has passed and Xander is aware (should be aware) of what Angel is doing in LA by that time. True, there is the constant fear of Angel turning into Angelus, but just Angel himself? He should be passed it. That angle would be uninteresting and backwards looking again. And as for the adolescent insecurities (i.e. Buffy preferring Angel and the host of issues that directly evolved from that initial problem of Xander's), recycling that would just be pathetic. At some point Xander largely gets passed all of that I think (his Buffy and relationship insecurity problems in general and also specifically with regard to Angel), but then again, you could argue he is insecure about his relationship partners right down to the end of S7 Buffy.

I really don't think Angel, for his part, feels anything but indifference toward Xander on this topic of their former one-sided 'tension'. Angel for the most part just shrugged him off back in the high school years. And just the idea of Angel having to explain himself again (in BtVS high-school-year terms) to Xander on his own show years later in either way I described above, or to even have to endure another round of it from Xander, makes me cringe. 
then again, if they had gone ahead with that idea it could have been funny for Angel to pause during the tension and ask Xander straight up, "okay, what's your problem" and stand and listen to Xander's confused and incoherent explanation for a minute and then roll his eyes and walk off before he finished. Exactly, that just sounds like your problem. Again. That's how I'd have had Angel handle that situation.

 

[Taake]

Yeah, if we had to revisit it and have a cordy and xander "reunion", than I would have preferred the writers and Joss to have contrived a way for Cordy to show up onto Buffy for an episode. I'll say again thought that the idea seems backwards looking to me though (xander/cordelia revisit), especially if we are talking S3. I prefer forward looking ideas.

I'm personally glad we didn't have large arcs crossing over between shows. The identities and sensibilities of both shows are too different imo. Besides, the Angel cast was large enough as it was; constant large crossover stories would have deprived us all of the precious time we were given exploring the characters on the Angel cast.

Angel has a history with a lot of the cast from Buffy, not just Xander.



My impression was that the tension was more on Xander's side than it ever was on Angel's. True, Angel(us) did things to Buffy and Xander that didn't allow Xander to trust him easily, but it also had a lot to do with Xander's adolescent insecurites. What would the nature of the tension be by the time of S3 of Angel? If it were the lack of trust issue, I think that would be so old and uninteresting and also nonsensical. A lot of time has passed and Xander is aware (should be aware) of what Angel is doing in LA by that time. True, there is the constant fear of Angel turning into Angelus, but just Angel himself? He should be passed it. That angle would be uninteresting and backwards looking again. And as for the adolescent insecurities (i.e. Buffy preferring Angel and the host of issues that directly evolved from that initial problem of Xander's), recycling that would just be pathetic. At some point Xander largely gets passed all of that I think (his Buffy and relationship insecurity problems in general and also specifically with regard to Angel), but then again, you could argue he is insecure about his relationship partners right down to the end of S7 Buffy.

I really don't think Angel, for his part, feels anything but indifference toward Xander on this topic of their former one-sided 'tension'. Angel for the most part just shrugged him off back in the high school years. And just the idea of Angel having to explain himself again (in BtVS high-school-year terms) to Xander on his own show years later in either way I described above, or to even have to endure another round of it from Xander, makes me cringe. 
then again, if they had gone ahead with that idea it could have been funny for Angel to pause during the tension and ask Xander straight up, "okay, what's your problem" and stand and listen to Xander's confused and incoherent explanation for a minute and then roll his eyes and walk off before he finished. Exactly, that just sounds like your problem. Again. That's how I'd have had Angel handle that situation.

While I agree that Xander is the main source of tension I don't think Angel is utterly indifferent to him. There's a history there.
I mean, it was interesting just to see Oz on Angel and he and Captain Forehead had just barely even been seen together in Sunnydale. I definitely think it would be more awkward and tense for Xander to come around just because he had a stronger connection, then say Andrew, to not just Angel but also Spike, Cordelia and Wesley.

I'm not saying Xander would have made a good cast regular, or that he and Angel wouldn't be able to be in the same room together, but for a guest appearance he would have - in my opinion - been the far better choice.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

I see what you mean taake. Your point is well taken. I just think having Xander on the show for the purpose of bringing back old issues would be bad for the show and reflect badly on Xander. It would have to be a different circumstance for Xander to show up again on Angel for it to be a success to me. I think if it did happen (old dirty laundry revisited) it would have been (should have been) obvious it was purely Xander's problem by that point. It always seemed like that to me. The tension on Angel's side seemed to me to be a degree of discomfort and awkwardness, but even on Buffy's show Angel more or less blew it off, at least as I recall things. Same thing with Cordy. I feel she's far past her high school years on Angel, especially s3, and it would reflect very badly on Xander to bring him back just to rehash the past that wasn't that important. But some people see more in their brief high school relationships than I do. At most it lasted a year...in high school...which is nothing for most people in real life. Really, that kind of thing is nothing with time and growth, regardless of how important it might have felt at the time. High school is irrelevant. And Cordy grew exponentially afterwards in LA. Bring Xander back for something unrelated to the past and I might warm up to it. Rehash the past and make it the focus...mostly Xander issues magnified beyond objective perspective...reinforcing everything stunted and unappealing about Xander's character...no thank you.