Giles' Apology

[white avenger]

It was never seen on screen, but do you think that Giles ever apologized to Buffy about his part in trying to have Spike killed? Just before she slammed the door in his face, he was TRYING TO EXPLAIN HIS ACTIONS, but I never saw ant part of a "please forgive me for going behind your back..." type of statement forthcoming.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

No. I don't think he apologized. Why should he? He did something he belived in. Just like Buffy did so many times. Did she ever apologized for keeping Angel. No, she tried to explain her actions, just like Giles did in that episode.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

It was never seen on screen, but do you think that Giles ever apologized to Buffy about his part in trying to have Soike killed? Just before she slammed the door in his face, he was TRYING TO EXPLAIN HIS ACTIONS, but I never saw ant part of a "please forgive me for going behind your back..." type of statement forthcoming.

I think Giles allegiances are to the Good Fight over Buffy. That's kind of been a major plot point in his plans to kill Dawn, Spike, and Genvieve.

Giles Loyalty:
Good Fight > Buffy/Scoobies > Random Innocents > Watcher's Council

 

[Flannen]

I don't think he would have done. As PrincessBuffy said, he did what he thought was right and I think he was probably more sorry about the fact that Wood didn't kill him as opposed to actually planning it in the first place.

It doesn't really bother me so much whether he did or didn't. I'd find it very hard to apologise to someone who was being so obnoxious and blinded to the point of treating someone who sacrificed everything for them like a piece of dirt, so I can completely understand why he wouldn't have. I don't think he would have really been given an opportunity to apologise, he wasn't even given the chance to explain himself fully.

Still, after everything that has happened since, I don't imagine it's as a big deal as it once was.

 

[BuffyElevated]

Honestly, I think Buffy owed him an apology more than he owed her one. I understand that she was upset that Giles didn't trust her more with Spike, but she was totally delusional when it came to him. She needed to apologize to Giles for allowing her emotions to cloud her vision of the big picture.

 

[white avenger]

Granted, Buffy didn't apologize for concealing Angel's return from Giles and the others, but he wasn't instrumental, only a few weeks later, in winning the Apocalypse and averting the death and/or subjugation of the entire planet. According to the beginning of the Season 8 arc, "No Future For You," there was, at that point, some sort of rift between Giles and Buffy, something that has, up until now, not been explained or even mentioned. It wouldn't take a great stretch of my imagination to see his actions in Sunnydale, possibly added to his refusal to assist Angel in the matter of Fred in Angel's season 5, assuming that she ever found out about it, as the primary causes of that rift (which honestly isn't exactly what I was getting at with this thread). It just seemed to me that their relationship after that door slamming scene wasn't as much leader/mentor as leader/subordinate. A season before, or even at the beginning of Season 7, Giles would never have added " If you want my opinion," after his comment on her strategy for the final showdown.

 

[LadyLavinia]

It was never seen on screen, but do you think that Giles ever apologized to Buffy about his part in trying to have Spike killed? Just before she slammed the door in his face, he was TRYING TO EXPLAIN HIS ACTIONS, but I never saw ant part of a "please forgive me for going behind your back..." type of statement forthcoming.

He never expressed any remorse - verbal or otherwise - for trying to kill Spike behind Buffy's back. And since this was the second time that Giles had betrayed Buffy (he never got the chance to betray her by killing Dawn in S5), I believe that his lack of remorse was the last straw for her.

It's interesting. This series is mainly supposed to be about Buffy's journey from adolescence to adulthood. And yet, when it comes to her relationships, fans want everything to remain the same for Buffy. Including her relationship with Giles. To me, that is not Buffy coming to terms with being adult, if she is going to continue to allow Giles to dictate her life. Considering Giles' past history in betraying Buffy or being willing to betray her for the sake of "the Greater Good" in episodes like "Helpless" and "The Gift", I don't see how anyone could be that surprised over what finally drove them apart in "Lies My Parents Told Me".

But I guess maintaining the status quo in regard to Buffy's relationships are more important to fans.

Honestly, I think Buffy owed him an apology more than he owed her one. I understand that she was upset that Giles didn't trust her more with Spike, but she was totally delusional when it came to him. She needed to apologize to Giles for allowing her emotions to cloud her vision of the big picture.

Giles was the one who had deceived and betrayed her . . . and she owed him an apology? Is it that important that Buffy give in to his opinion all of the time? I don't even believe that Spike was that much of a threat. Certainly not in a household filled with potential vampire slayers, a powerful witch and a powerful vampire slayer. In other words, Giles was willing to risk the lives of Buffy, the other Scoobies (including a powerful witch who has yet to learn to control her emotions) and the Potentials in the fight against the First . . . and yet, he couldn't tolerate a vampire under the influence of the First inside the house? There seemed to be something wrong with this scenario.

 

[Flannen]

It's interesting. This series is mainly supposed to be about Buffy's journey from adolescence to adulthood. And yet, when it comes to her relationships, fans want everything to remain the same for Buffy. Including her relationship with Giles. To me, that is not Buffy coming to terms with being adult, if she is going to continue to allow Giles to dictate her life. Considering Giles' past history in betraying Buffy or being willing to betray her for the sake of "the Greater Good" in episodes like "Helpless" and "The Gift", I don't see how anyone could be that surprised over what finally drove them apart in "Lies My Parents Told Me".

But I guess maintaining the status quo in regard to Buffy's relationships are more important to fans.

You've said something similar to this before in another Giles thread and several members stepped up to explain that is simply not the case, so I'm interested in why you still think it is even when several Giles fans have actually said to you that it's not about us wanting nothing to change? There was a whole host of reasons in the other thread. And it's really not as simple as, he betrayed her twice. She equally betrayed his trust.

And I don't think Giles has ever really dictated anything to her. He's given her advice and instruction when she has wanted it which was pretty much through all of the first five seasons, less so by season six because he wasn't around so much. But it doesn't seem to be as big a deal when Buffy asks for it? I've always felt Giles was the one who realised a long time before Buffy did that she needed to step away and be an adult and make the decisions for herself, but she was the one who clung to him.

I watched these episodes again recently and I'm actually glad he didn't apologise. I don't see the point in putting yourslef out there for someone who couldn't really give a monkeys! lol

 

[PixieGiggles33]

I think Giles allegiances are to the Good Fight over Buffy.

Having just watched "Empty Places," I agree with this one. Giles was agreeing with everyone else that Buffy's gung-ho attitude towards going after Caleb was reckless. As a former Watcher, he is sworn to protect good and all it stands for first, which usually includes teaching and looking after his Slayer.

In the episode "Lies My Parents Told Me," Buffy points out this: "The mission is what matters." She also uses Nicki Woods's words directly to Robin, which had a very profound impact on him. Having her exact words repeated to him through Buffy really struck him.

It struck a cord through all of the Scooby gang and the Potentials as well. They didn't know what Caleb had at the time- they just knew that he had something that the Slayer needed/wanted, which, for all they knew, could have been another trap.

The point is that Giles, like the rest, knew that the ultimate goal was to protect and serve goodness. There in lies the reason why he never apologized for allowing Robin to access Spike (to kill him).

 

[BuffyElevated]

Giles was the one who had deceived and betrayed her . . . and she owed him an apology? Is it that important that Buffy give in to his opinion all of the time? I don't even believe that Spike was that much of a threat. Certainly not in a household filled with potential vampire slayers, a powerful witch and a powerful vampire slayer. In other words, Giles was willing to risk the lives of Buffy, the other Scoobies (including a powerful witch who has yet to learn to control her emotions) and the Potentials in the fight against the First . . . and yet, he couldn't tolerate a vampire under the influence of the First inside the house? There seemed to be something wrong with this scenario.

I see what you're saying, and to some extent I do agree a little. But still, he couldn't be sure that Spike's trigger wouldn't be an issue. We saw how easily he tossed Buffy aside and literally tore through the wall to get to Andrew earlier on in the season, and what was to say that it wouldn't happen again, with The First pulling his strings like a puppet?
I agree with Giles (and others who had expressed it) that Spike was a liability. And Buffy just wouldn't allow herself to think that because she was still in love with Spike.

 

[LadyLavinia]

The point is that Giles, like the rest, knew that the ultimate goal was to protect and serve goodness. There in lies the reason why he never apologized for allowing Robin to access Spike (to kill him).

If that is supposed to be Giles' excuse, then he can keep it. If there is one thing I loathe are people who are willing to do anything - including an illegal or evil act - for "the greater good" or for the "good of all". As if that is supposed to give them an excuse. People like that are ridiculously self-righteous and dangerous.

I can understand Wood's reasons for going after Spike. It was a personal matter about his mother. But Giles really disgusted me. What made the Watcher's actions even more reprehensible was that he was willing to plot Spike's death after only ONE attempt to free Spike from the First Evil's control. He made one lousy attempt . . . and gave up. Then he deceived Buffy by trying to get Spike killed behind her back and refused to be remorseful about it.

No wonder Buffy broke away from him. I would have done the same.


And I can't believe that so many are willing to make excuses for Giles, simply because they could not deal with the idea of Buffy no longer being under his authority. A man who is not really her father.

We saw how easily he tossed Buffy aside and literally tore through the wall to get to Andrew earlier on in the season . . .

And Buffy still managed to knock Spike out. Or have you forgotten that?

Is it that important that Buffy's relationship with Giles remained the same? This is supposed to be a series about an adolescent female who matures into an adult woman. Yet, many fans wanted her to remain under the authority of a male figure, because he is "beloved" character. Dear God!

 

[ubi4soft]

There is an evident parallel between the destruction of Watcher's Council (they pompously thought the war they're all were been waiting and prepared for started exactly before their headquarters is blown up) and the downfall of Giles (nearer to the fight with the First) they were all wrong in their approaches to the battle. Even being proved to be wrong, Giles is still incapable to move from the old teachings of the council (the greater good) and couldn't understand the basic principle of fighting the good vs evil Buffy so many time expressed: you cannot fight evil with evil.

The point is that Giles, like the rest, knew that the ultimate goal was to protect and serve goodness. There in lies the reason why he never apologized for allowing Robin to access Spike (to kill him).

I think Giles allegiances are to the Good Fight over Buffy.

Giles would kill Buffy for the greater good. Maybe he is Twilight after all.

 

[BuffyElevated]

And I can't believe that so many are willing to make excuses for Giles, simply because they could not deal with the idea of Buffy no longer being under his authority. A man who is not really her father.

And Buffy still managed to knock Spike out. Or have you forgotten that?

Is it that important that Buffy's relationship with Giles remained the same? This is supposed to be a series about an adolescent female who matures into an adult woman. Yet, many fans wanted her to remain under the authority of a male figure, because he is "beloved" character. Dear God!

I never thought it was ok for Buffy to be "under the authority" of anyone, since she is the Slayer. But Giles was her mentor for a very long time, and her friend even after Buffy no longer needed him there for guidance. I just thought that she seemed a little quick to throw all that away for someone like Spike.
I didn't forget that Buffy knocked him out. I do remember that it was AFTER he had sunk his teeth into someone's neck, though. Or did you forget about that??

 

[Grey Ghost]

It's been some time that I've watched all of the Buffy episodes. But did Giles ever apologise to Buffy for anything, apart from the time he was injecting her with stuffto make her weak. There are also time that I felt that Xander and Wilow should have apologised to her for their actions to her. It seems to me that her friends took her for granted and they were actually lucky that she didn't flip on them!

 

[Kelsey]

Giles Loyalty:
Good Fight > Buffy/Scoobies > Random Innocents > Watcher's Council

I agree with this wholeheartedly. Giles proved early on that while he loved Buffy, the greater good came before personal ties. He proved it time and time again, especially when he wanted to kill first Dawn and then Spike. I think the divide between Giles and Buffy is much like the divide between the Slayer and the Council. They believed in doing whatever was necessary, no matter the cost to anyone else. Buffy has never harbored that same ruthlessness, which is why she won't consider killing Spike or Dawn or anyone else for the greater good.

I'm biased in two ways on this issue, once because I adore Spike and twice because I hate the belief that you can sacrifice people as long as it's to protect the world. Spike didn't understand what was happening to him anymore than the Scoobies did, and he was just as frightened and disgusted by it. On top of that, he'd gone to hell and back to redeem himself and finally make himself a worthy being. He finally proved to Buffy that he was a good man, he'd fought tooth and nail to overcome his instincts, and Buffy is supposed to just sacrifice him because of something he has no control over? While the belief is understandable, it's also unbelievably cold, and it's no wonder Buffy could never support it.

Giles is frightening sometimes for that exact reason; he has the ability to be colder and harsher than any of the other Scoobies. This instilled belief that hurting or killing someone is right as long as it's to serve the cause is dangerous, and it's one of the reasons I've never liked him as much as I could have.

I don't blame Buffy for riff between them. It's hard to trust someone who could easily throw away your life, your family's life and your friends' lives if the cause called for it.

 

[white avenger]

The problem with excusing Giles' actions as being strictly for the "greater good" is that he was every bit as prejudiced against Spike as Wood ever was, and he let that prejudice slant his judgment. Spike was no threat to anyone as long as Buffy was around, because she could control him, and when she wasn't around, he was safely chained up in the basement (Buffy made certain of that by slipping down there late at night just to be sure. Sometimes it took her several hours just to be totally certain, but that's just part of being the Slayer...What? Did they edit that part out of your DVD set?) From the middle of Season 5 on, Spike had been completely loyal to Buffy and her cause, even undergone severe torture in order to protect her and Dawn. He had done the unthinkable, and willingly, at great pain and risk, regained his very soul. He had earned, at the very least, some small bit of consideration for those things alone. Instead, all Giles saw was another monster who didn't deserve to be with his Slayer.

Giles merely SUGGESTED that they consider killing Dawn in Season 5 "for the greater good." He actually conspired with Robin Wood to kill Spike in Season 7, and in doing so could have placed every man, woman, and child on the entire planet in jeopardy. For that, at the very least, he owed Buffy AND Spike an apology.

 

[Kana]

Whilst I agree with how things went down, I don't think Giles was anymore prejudice towards Spike than he was towards Angel. I believed if either one of them become a threat he would have wanted the threat eliminated. While thinking of the greater good can be an asset in the good fight, as LL said, if we start thinking the greater good is more important than the sum of all it's parts, it becomes dangerous. Emotionally speaking I'm not a big picture thinker myself so although I can critisize Buffy a little for thinking with her heart, I can relate lol.

 

[white avenger]

Whilst I agree with how things went down, I don't think Giles was anymore prejudice towards Spike than he was towards Angel. .

I pretty much agree with that. Giles hated and mistrusted both vampires equally, and would go to any extreme to keep Buffy away from either or both. It's also why I believe that Buffy has no idea, in Season 8, that Spike is alive, or even knows many of the details about what was going on in Los Angeles. Having Spike far away from Buffy, with her not knowing that he has even returned, would be almost as good as dusting him, as far as Giles was concerned.

 

[LadyLavinia]

But Giles was her mentor for a very long time, and her friend even after Buffy no longer needed him there for guidance. I just thought that she seemed a little quick to throw all that away for someone like Spike.

When did that happen? I do recall Giles departing for England after Buffy's resurrection, leaving her alone to do her Slayer stuff. He returned to Sunnydale, following Willow's trip to "dark side" to deal with her. Then he left again to escort Willow to England and remained there for a while. Following the Watcher's Council's destruction, he made occasional trips to Sunnydale to deliver Potentials to Buffy, but he never acted as her friend. Instead, he ordered Buffy to take responsibility for the Potentials, while he continued to engage in meaningless research on the First Evil and find more Potentials. Whenever he was in Sunnydale, he spent most of his time moaning about the First Evil and lecturing Buffy about keeping Spike in her midst. We all know what happened after their estrangement in "Lies My Parents Told Me".

I simply do not recall Giles acting as a "friend" during the last two seasons of the show. He was either gone or trying to continue his role as her mentor. That's it.

I didn't forget that Buffy knocked him out. I do remember that it was AFTER he had sunk his teeth into someone's neck, though. Or did you forget about that??

Have you recalled that the person whom Spike had sunk his teeth into had survived, thanks to Buffy?

And why should they be wary of Spike only, when Willow - a person who had nearly brought about the end of the world - was in the house? She was just as dangerous as Spike. And at the time, she barely knew how to balance her emotions and her powers. Her exploitation of Kennedy's essence in "Get It Done" was proof of that. With the possible exception of a few, all of them in that house were dangerous. And all of them had the potential to fall under the influence of the First Evil. Not just Spike. Or have you forgotten that?

 

[BuffyElevated]

I haven't forgotten a single thing you've mentioned up there. However, you seem to be really quick to dismiss all of Spike's bad behavior and point fingers at other characters. Yes, I agree, Willow was just as dangerous as Spike, which was one reason she was trying to abstain from doing any magic. I don't agree with the times that certain characters pressure her into doing spells to try to help, but they were right that magic was one of their most powerful weapons against the Ubervamps and Bringers.
I just don't blame Giles as much as some people do for distracting Buffy while Wood tried to kill Spike. He thought that Spike was a threat, mostly because Robin was feeding his insecurities about Spike's presence there. Giles was definitely influenced and he did something stupid by working with Wood. I like Spike as a character a LOT, but I am one of the first people to admit that he was a threat to everyone in the beginning of Season 7, so I can understand why Giles and other characters were skittish about him being around.