Giles as a New Watcher VS Wesley

[ashleigh]

I am currently re-watching Welcome to the Hellmouth, and have realised that Giles, at the start of his career, reminds me very much of Wesley. When Buffy tells him to slay a vampire (albeit with a lot of angst and attitude) his response is 'Well I haven't the skill. A watcher watches, a slayer slays'. Something which he disproves in future episodes. He seems mostly interested in the academics of vampire slaying, rather than the physical side of it. He clearly wants to do everything by the book, and is still influenced very much by the watcher's council.

As the series progresses, he becomes less interested in what the council thinks, does things his way, and does get involved in the slaying of vampires.

When we see the appearance of Wesley in S3, he is still clearly under the influence of the council, and is very much how Giles was at the beginning of the series. Because of this the scoobies struggle to accept him, and I'm sure lots of viewers struggled to accept his ways too.

I think that maybe if Wesley was given a proper chance (as Giles was), he could have developed into an amazing watcher!

Who agrees that Giles was very Wesley like? Or am I just imagining things?! (it happens sometimes)

---------- Post added at 07:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:49 PM ----------

oops! I meat to post this in the S1 Buffy thread!

 

[Xin Rong]

Wesley was younger than Giles, he was too inexperienced and had no business being the watcher of not just one but two watchers, but that's not his fault, it's the councils for sending such a newb on such a big job. Given more of a chance to gain some life and work experience then I'm sure Wesley could have made a great watcher. If Giles went from ripper to the watcher we see in the show then anything's possible.

 

[white avenger]

I think that maybe if Wesley was given a proper chance (as Giles was), he could have developed into an amazing watcher!

More likely, the way that we first saw Wesley in Season 3 was perfectly in keeping with the highest traditions of the Watchers' Council. Remember, Giles, after the first few episodes of Season 1, and becoming more obvious as the series progressed, was, at best, NOT your typical Watcher, and, at worst, a total rogue. Wesley was right. The Watchers watch, the Slayers slay. That's how the Watchers did it from back when they were the Shadow Men to the present. To them, the Slayer was nothing more than an extremely effective weapon in the war against vampires and demons, and not only extremely effective, but guaranteed replaceable. Wesley might not have been the most dynamic or assertive character when he first arrived in Sunnydale, but otherwise, he was the perfect Watcher.

 

[thetopher]

I found it amazing that the Council would sent so obviously a green, young Watcher-in-Training to watch two bloody slayers, which has been established as a unique, never before seen pressident (or at least so Giles claimed)

It's idiotic in the extreme- send two seasoned Watchers to guide two slayers seems to makes total sense to me.


But anyway, to address the actual question, if Wesley had been 'given a chance'- and by that I mean if he'd been sent to Sunnydale before Gwen Post destroyed Faith's trust in any sort of authority figure- then maybe he could've reigned Faith in, and maybe he would've come to care for her as Giles did Buffy (although that seems rather unlikely).

The unfortunate thing is that Wesley (as we later found out) had some fairly serious self-esteem issues that only became evident on Angel.

Giles never had that problem, he was sure in himself and his role of Watcher, which allowed him to adapt his methods to his charge.
He had the confidence to change his approach to Buffy, or at least knew when to bend to her requests, I doubt Wesley would've done anything like that in response to Faith challenging his authority (and no doubt she would've done), he would've just dug his heels in most likely.

I think if that had happened maybe Faith wouldn't have gone over to the dark side, but she probably would've quit the Council when she saw Buffy do it. ('Gee, B, that's a wicked idea- f*** you Wes.')

And I think by S3 Buffy was too far gone (i.e independent, took her own intiative) to respond to any of Wesley's or the Council's methods- her rebelling and quitting was really the only eventual outcome vis-a-vi Wesley.

 

[Xin Rong]

I found it amazing that the Council would sent so obviously a green, young Watcher-in-Training to watch two bloody slayers, which has been established as a unique, never before seen pressident (or at least so Giles claimed)

It's idiotic in the extreme- send two seasoned Watchers to guide two slayers seems to makes total sense to me.


But anyway, to address the actual question, if Wesley had been 'given a chance'- and by that I mean if he'd been sent to Sunnydale before Gwen Post destroyed Faith's trust in any sort of authority figure- then maybe he could've reigned Faith in, and maybe he would've come to care for her as Giles did Buffy (although that seems rather unlikely).

The unfortunate thing is that Wesley (as we later found out) had some fairly serious self-esteem issues that only became evident on Angel.

Giles never had that problem, he was sure in himself and his role of Watcher, which allowed him to adapt his methods to his charge.
He had the confidence to change his approach to Buffy, or at least knew when to bend to her requests, I doubt Wesley would've done anything like that in response to Faith challenging his authority (and no doubt she would've done), he would've just dug his heels in most likely.

I think if that had happened maybe Faith wouldn't have gone over to the dark side, but she probably would've quit the Council when she saw Buffy do it. ('Gee, B, that's a wicked idea- f*** you Wes.')

And I think by S3 Buffy was too far gone (i.e independent, took her own intiative) to respond to any of Wesley's or the Council's methods- her rebelling and quitting was really the only eventual outcome vis-a-vi Wesley.

We agree on a Wesley related subjected, yay 🙂

Wesley had no hope of being the watcher he'd been told to be, he was too naive and did not really seem to understand what the task entailed. It makes me think of teaching, you can train a teacher for years and years, but their training doesn't really begin until they encounter a class. We wouldn't let a teacher enter a classroom without ever teaching a class but the council will let a watcher be in charge of two slayers without even training a potential, at least as far as we know. They were either incredibly stupid, or really clever in the sense that they knew Giles would still work as a watcher, but they'd have someone on the inside in some capacity.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

I'll have to disagree.
Giles went into it with more skill and experience than Wesley perhaps not in overseeing slaying but in authority and interactions with teenagers. He spent years prior to Buffy's arrival as the Sunnydale High Librarian where he was surrounded by teenagers of all types which is where he likely learned to raise his voice when he meant business and make it known that he wasn't going to take any shit.

Wesley whom is not only younger than Giles but came fresh from 'boot camp' so to speak while undeniably possessing the book smarts, had a serious lack of impact as an authority figure which is what had resulted in Faith's rouge actions and police custody escape acts. This is why I'm not able to make much sense of the counsel's logic that he was suitable for this assignment especially since it had him taking on TWO slayers. It seems like their only consideration was the granted fact that he was quite effective at doing things by the book which was their issue with Giles. Not mention he was a counsel kiss ass. That however was not enough.
Not to mention Wesley vaguely dated Cordelia, a high school student. He was what in his mid to late 20's or early 30's?. Highly Unprofessional and inappropriate behavior and one might say a conflict of interest.

 

[Mr Trick]

[

I'll have to disagree.
Giles went into it with more skill and experience than Wesley perhaps not in overseeing slaying but in authority and interactions with teenagers. He spent years prior to Buffy's arrival as the Sunnydale High Librarian where he was surrounded by teenagers of all types which is where he likely learned to raise his voice when he meant business and make it known that he wasn't going to take any shit.

Wesley whom is not only younger than Giles but came fresh from 'boot camp' so to speak while undeniably possessing the book smarts, had a serious lack of impact as an authority figure which is what had resulted in Faith's rouge actions and police custody escape acts. This is why I'm not able to make much sense of the counsel's logic that he was suitable for this assignment especially since it had him taking on TWO slayers. It seems like their only consideration was the granted fact that he was quite effective at doing things by the book which was their issue with Giles. Not mention he was a counsel kiss ass. That however was not enough.
Not to mention Wesley vaguely dated Cordelia, a high school student. He was what in his mid to late 20's or early 30's?. Highly Unprofessional and inappropriate behavior and one might say a conflict of interest.

This is the key point for me, and I think the show is purposing flagging that angle up. By representing the Watcher's Counsel as a cold corporation who are too set in their ways and not interested on the effects their actions have on people as long as they acheive their overall goal. From that point of view Wesley is just seen as a corporate "yes man" who will carry out the Counsel's duties by the book without stopping to think about new approaches which could get better results. It is a bit like the FA in English Football (hope this reference doesn't isolate you guys) where they are seen as only hireing managers who fall in line with how they think things should be run. In this case Wesley is simply put in a bad spot at the wrong time of his career, and as we see later in Angel has much more to him than the role he plays in Buffy would suggest. Don't forget that Giles is also willing to give Buffy tough love, such as with the Dawn situation in S6. What Giles gets is that like with a good teacher you have to treat each student as an indivivual and if one method does not work then to try another. If there is a flaw to Giles it is that he allows himself to get too personally attached to Buffy (something a good teacher would not allow to happen), but then as things progress I think he becomes more cynical about the process of being a Watcher and of the motatives of the Counsel, and so decides to rebal and do things his own way with more freedom.

I don't see that much of a link between early Giles and early Wesley, just that they are both a little stuffy and posh. Giles is taken more serious as an athority figure, and from early on has his own sense of humour and idenity.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

@Mr Trick Exactly, It feels to me like the counsel probably knew they were sending an incapable rookie but only cared about selecting the candidate most likely to go by the book. That after all was their beef with Giles, that he had become too personally close to Buffy and thus let so many things they don't approve of slide.

 

[ibuffybot]

Giles will always be my favorite watcher. He brought a lot of heart. Yes at the beginning he and buffy were not close but by the end he loved buffy. And Giles was an expert watcher.i think the counsel sent Wesley because they could control him better. And i agree with Twisted Angelus' opinion.

 

[thetopher]

Exactly, It feels to me like the counsel probably knew they were sending an incapable rookie but only cared about selecting the candidate most likely to go by the book.

Agreed. Also the fact that the Council were implied to be so out-of-touch and clueless when it came to the 'practicalities' of fieldwork that they may not have even considered the idea of discipline being a problem.
They may have thought that Giles was just incompotent so they send a more 'intellectual/bookish' sort of Watcher to deal with the 'lax' slayers.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Wesley's father, Roger Wyndham-Price, is an influential former watcher (as stated in "Lineage 5x07", AtS) and it appears they sent Wesley in deference to him. BTW Roger states that the Council knew about the evils of Wolfram & Hart which may be why Giles doesn't seem to keen on dealing with anyone from there. The demon posing as Roger does get in some digs:

FRED
Thanks. Anyway, we were wanting you to decipher it before we went digging around in there. Wesley handles this sort of stuff for us all the time. He's a genius when it comes to languages.

ROGER WYNDAM-PRICE
Oh, the academy didn't make him head boy for nothing.
(takes off his glasses)
Mind you, as I recall, the pickings were a bit slim that year.

Shortly after that, Wesley trips a bomb timer in a cyborg and we get this exchange showing Roger's contempt for Wesley:

WESLEY
I'll stay with the bomb, try to diffuse it. It could be our only�
(the cyborg's device stops ringing)
(to his father) What did you do?

ROGER WYNDAM-PRICE
These symbols were, in fact, Dutrovic in origin, not Moracian, as you surmised. When interpreted correctly, these symbols spell out the proper procedure for handling the cyborg's power core, including this fail-safe, in case someone trips the self-destruct device. Quite simple really.

and their true feelings come out later:

WESLEY
...you brought in an army so you could escape. I don't know why you're doing all this, but did you ever once consider there might be another way? Did you ever once consider talking to me about it?

ROGER WYNDAM-PRICE
No. You've failed me enough for one lifetime.

Wesley shoots his father after he threatens Fred and Angel finally pays Wesley one compliment after Wesley says the attackers went after him because he was weak:

ANGEL
They're wrong. You do what you have to do to protect the people around you. To do what you know is right, regardless of the cost. You know, I never really understood that. You're the guy who makes all the hard decisions, even if you have to make 'em alone.

and Angel's statement is the definition of Wesley in AtS. The disconnect between bumbling buffoon Wesley in BtVS and badass Wesley in AtS is difficult to swallow - it is just too extreme to believe. As for the OP's question of how much Wesley was like Giles, I would say not much. They have quite different personalities and backgrounds and we get the idea of Giles as being a bit removed from Ripper but not that much (great scene where he intimidates Snyder) whereas Wesley is always going to be recovering from a toxic childhood.

 

[Mr Trick]

Wesley's father, Roger Wyndham-Price, is an influential former watcher (as stated in "Lineage 5x07", AtS) and it appears they sent Wesley in deference to him. BTW Roger states that the Council knew about the evils of Wolfram & Hart which may be why Giles doesn't seem to keen on dealing with anyone from there. The demon posing as Roger does get in some digs:

FRED
Thanks. Anyway, we were wanting you to decipher it before we went digging around in there. Wesley handles this sort of stuff for us all the time. He's a genius when it comes to languages.

ROGER WYNDAM-PRICE
Oh, the academy didn't make him head boy for nothing.
(takes off his glasses)
Mind you, as I recall, the pickings were a bit slim that year.

Shortly after that, Wesley trips a bomb timer in a cyborg and we get this exchange showing Roger's contempt for Wesley:

WESLEY
I'll stay with the bomb, try to diffuse it. It could be our only�
(the cyborg's device stops ringing)
(to his father) What did you do?

ROGER WYNDAM-PRICE
These symbols were, in fact, Dutrovic in origin, not Moracian, as you surmised. When interpreted correctly, these symbols spell out the proper procedure for handling the cyborg's power core, including this fail-safe, in case someone trips the self-destruct device. Quite simple really.

and their true feelings come out later:

WESLEY
...you brought in an army so you could escape. I don't know why you're doing all this, but did you ever once consider there might be another way? Did you ever once consider talking to me about it?

ROGER WYNDAM-PRICE
No. You've failed me enough for one lifetime.

Wesley shoots his father after he threatens Fred and Angel finally pays Wesley one compliment after Wesley says the attackers went after him because he was weak:

ANGEL
They're wrong. You do what you have to do to protect the people around you. To do what you know is right, regardless of the cost. You know, I never really understood that. You're the guy who makes all the hard decisions, even if you have to make 'em alone.

and Angel's statement is the definition of Wesley in AtS. The disconnect between bumbling buffoon Wesley in BtVS and badass Wesley in AtS is difficult to swallow - it is just too extreme to believe. As for the OP's question of how much Wesley was like Giles, I would say not much. They have quite different personalities and backgrounds and we get the idea of Giles as being a bit removed from Ripper but not that much (great scene where he intimidates Snyder) whereas Wesley is always going to be recovering from a toxic childhood.

But isn't it possibly that Wesley always had that toughness in him? It was just a case of getting it out of him, which happens when called upon in Angel. I think at the end of his run in Buffy he changes morally and sees the error of his ways so adopts a different persona (although we don't see it in that show). There are still hints of nevious Wes in Angel, just that he is more brooding and has a greater sense of purpose. Because of the writing and acting I guess I did believe his change.

 

[thetopher]

The only difference I can see in the way Wesley is treated on Buffy and on Angel is that nobody on Buffy, not one character, gives him any respect.

Giles undermines him, Buffy ignores him or belittles him, Xander snarks at him, Faith assaults him and Cordelia (the only who who's nice to him) thinks he's handsome and wants to date him- she obviously doesn't think about his 'abilities' as a Watcher.
I mean, I get WHY they all do this because Wesley is pompous and annoying, but still it can be painful to watch.

(I can't actually remember how much Wesley and Angel interact on Buffy past 'Bad Girls'/'Consequences'- as I remember Angel's critial of his actions but not of him as a person. I can't remember Angel saying anything like 'Wesley you suck as a human being' or anything, but I could be mistaken.)

On the other hand on his own show Angel treats Wesley with at least some respect from his first appearance (he always seems more amused by Wesley's presence than annoyed) and its this respect/confidence for his abilities that allows Wesley to grow, to think of himself as worthwhile (despite all the pratfalls...) and capable.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

Giles will always be my favorite watcher. He brought a lot of heart. Yes at the beginning he and buffy were not close but by the end he loved buffy. And Giles was an expert watcher.i think the counsel sent Wesley because they could control him better. And i agree with Twisted Angelus' opinion.

Agreed, I dare say Giles might have been more of a loving parent to Buffy than even Joyce especially in the synthetic Dawn version of the timeline where Joyce favorited Dawn.

The only difference I can see in the way Wesley is treated on Buffy and on Angel is that nobody on Buffy, not one character, gives him any respect.

This is true and is because he never demanded any. He was too meek to assert his authority. Something he still had to overcome when he became leader in ATS. When Angel rejoined the team after his stupid epiphany and also needed to adjust to the new order, not knowing what to do himself Wes tended to allow his direction.
'That Old Gang Of Mine' was the big turning point, where he finally asserted his authority.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

I apologize for double posting, but I just came across an amazing quote, probably from the comics, that sums up what set Giles apart from Wesley as a first time watcher and both made him more suited than most and the most dismissive which eventually got him frowned upon by the council.

"You were a young fool who felt immortal, did remarkably ill-advised things, and it cost people their lives, eh? You bloody idiot. That doesn't disqualify you from being a watcher. It makes you perfectly suited to mentor a slayer. They're young girls granted tremendous power. Who can relate to them better? A man like your father, who's done the right and proper thing his entire life? Or you?"
- Edna Giles (Giles' grandmother).

Source: http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/Rupert_Giles