Giles As Faith's Watcher

[white avenger]

I anyone else of the opinion that Giles, as Faith's official Watcher,even if the assignment was only supposed to be temporary,did a really poor job of providing for Faith's care and welfare? Even before the accidental killing in the alley,and her subsequent going over to Wilkins' side, she was living in what was obviously a fleabag hotel, with little or no supervision or concern for her well being. Can you imagine Giles ever allowing Buffy to live in conditions like that if she hadn't had a family and home there in Sunnydale?

Even being charitable and assuming that Giles provided Faith with some sort of living expenses allowance, he couldn't have concerned himself too greatly with how she spent that money or what on. And it must be remembered that, in Season 3, Faith was almost certainly was a minor, and therefore should not have been allowed to live alone, regardless of the surroundings. If Giles was Buffy's surrogate father, one might even say was more like a meddlesome maiden aunt,it seems to me that he really ddropped the ball when it came to Faith.

 

[Mischlings]

He definitely did drop the ball, and he recognizes that fact in the comics - in season 8, he spends a good amount of time trying to make up for that mistake with Faith. But yeah, he really dropped the ball there in the first place.

I don't really know that he provided her with money or really any help at all - it's another one of those situations in which there's no answer in the show and we can only make conjectures about it. I just don't think that he was ever even that involved in what was going on with Faith.

And she was a minor at the time - I've seen her birthday given as December 30, 1980 - not sure the source of that (my guess is the novel Go Ask Malice), but it's the same as Eliza, so I would guess that it's accurate. That would make her 17 for most of the season, turning 18 somewhere around the middle - so what happened to her cruciamentum? That's another question entirely.

Wow, I rambled more than just a little bit. Need to keep that in check.

 

[Lyri]

First, I'm not convinced that Faith is a minor. It always seemed to me that she was older than Buffy and was already 18 by the time she arrived in Sunnydale. But, that's my personal head canon, so I'll move on.

As for Giles giving Faith money or looking after her, I'm not sure she would have taken it even if he did offer. Yes, Faith accepted Buffy's offer of dinner at her house and liked the attention Joyce paid her, but that was more to do with seeing how Buffy lived and trying to be a part of her life than accepting charity.

Which is what I think Faith would have thought if Giles offered her anything. Faith is fiercely independent, to a fault sometimes. She doesn't need anybody, and I think she accepts living in that motel as proof that she can get by on her own, even when Buffy has her mother and Watcher.

I don't think Giles ever considered Faith someone he needed to look out for, and I don't mean that Faith wasn't a minor so wasn't deserving for anything. I mean, Giles never really considered it his responsibility to take care of Faith the way he did with Buffy. Faith was someone who had just pushed herself into their quiet (ha!) little town. She was forcing him to re-evaluate everything and rethink the way he thought about these people and rework how he worked with Buffy - he had two Slayers to deal with now, both of who weren't even close to being anything like 'normal' Slayers. I think he had his hands full with that, as well as dealing with the Council, I don't think he gave a second to her living conditions.

And while we're on the subject - was Giles even aware of where Faith lived?

 

[white avenger]

I don't think Giles ever considered Faith someone he needed to look out for, and I don't mean that Faith wasn't a minor so wasn't deserving for anything. I mean, Giles never really considered it his responsibility to take care of Faith the way he did with Buffy. Faith was someone who had just pushed herself into their quiet (ha!) little town. She was forcing him to re-evaluate everything and rethink the way he thought about these people and rework how he worked with Buffy - he had two Slayers to deal with now, both of who weren't even close to being anything like 'normal' Slayers. I think he had his hands full with that, as well as dealing with the Council, I don't think he gave a second to her living conditions.

And while we're on the subject - was Giles even aware of where Faith lived?

And once again,why, if he was her official Watcher, responsible for and getting paid for providing for her training and upkeep (just assumption on my part, but it seems logical from everything that we've seen about the Watcher/Slayer relationship whenever it is actually shown or mentioned,with the exception of Nikki Wood) didn't Giles consider it part of his job to do those things for Faith. And he MUST have known where she lived, if only to be able to get in touch with her in case of emergencies. Also,remember when Wilkins gave her the new apartment, he mentioned keeping her old place just to keep up appearances. That wouldn't be necessary unless Giles and the gang knew that she lived there. Buffy visited her there, and she dragged Xander in once for a quickie.

Faith was Giles' responsibility, the same as Buffy, for as long as she was in Sunnydale and he was employed by the Watchers' Council. He SHOULD have made it his business to know at least as much about her whereabouts and well being as he did Buffy's, and I can't imagine him ever being that ignorant of Buffy's living conditions.

 

[Lyri]

Because it just never occurred to him.

I'm not saying it was right - far from it. But it's what happened. We've seen Giles' laser focus before, his number 1 priority is Buffy and everyone else just falls far below his radar.

There's also the fact that Faith didn't look or act like she wanted or needed anyone's help. She might have been living in that dingy motel room, but she enjoyed her life. That room was nothing more than a place to sleep and wash up, she got everything else she need elsewhere.

 

[fredthe3rd]

Yes, he must have had a spare room in that palatial house of his!

 

[Lyri]

Yes, he must have had a spare room in that palatial house of his!

He didn't. He had a loft apartment - only one bedroom.

But on that note Buffy and Joyce DID have a spare bedroom - at least at that point - and we know for sure that Buffy did know where Faith was living and Joyce seemed to like her a lot, enough to be comfortable having dinner together and spending Christmas with her alone.

 

[white avenger]

He didn't. He had a loft apartment - only one bedroom.

But on that note Buffy and Joyce DID have a spare bedroom - at least at that point - and we know for sure that Buffy did know where Faith was living and Joyce seemed to like her a lot, enough to be comfortable having dinner together and spending Christmas with her alone.

This is something hat I've often wondered about, but I was never sure whether or not it was jut my upbringing and the tradition of Southern hospitality. At the very least,until she could find a place of her own to stay,why didn't Buffy invite Faith to stay with her? At that point,if I recall properly,Giles wasn't aware of Faith' presence in town, so it would have made sense for Buffy to take her to meet him the next morning.

 

[fredthe3rd]

I thought I could picture Giles in a big house... I'll admit my memory can get the better of me. I thought he walked up a big grand staircase in Passion before he discovered "the horrors".

 

[Lyri]

I thought I could picture Giles in a big house... I'll admit my memory can get the better of me. I thought he walked up a big grand staircase in Passion before he discovered "the horrors".

In 'Passion', he walks up the stairs and he's in his bedroom. He doesn't go down a hallway and open any doors; the stairs end right in his bedroom, making it a loft apartment. And in 'The Yoko Factor', when he goes up to his room, he drops his sweater over the railing and onto Xander's head.

This is something hat I've often wondered about, but I was never sure whether or not it was jut my upbringing and the tradition of Southern hospitality. At the very least,until she could find a place of her own to stay,why didn't Buffy invite Faith to stay with her? At that point,if I recall properly,Giles wasn't aware of Faith' presence in town, so it would have made sense for Buffy to take her to meet him the next morning.

If it was me, I would have offered her the spare room, if for no other reason that at least she would know where Faith was for the majority of the time.

 

[BuffyElevated]

I never saw Faith as the type of person who needed looking after, so I doubt Giles did either. And like [MENTION=6332]Lyri[/MENTION] said, she didn't seem like someone who would even allow someone to try. Faith was very independent and seemed to love being able to do whatever she wanted... Also I agree with the point that Giles was pretty blind to everyone but Buffy...
Although it did bother me that Buffy or Joyce never offered her to come stay there. Joyce seemed to realize she needed guidance, so why wouldn't she have offered to let her stay with them?

 

[Jodast]

I think that Giles' indifference played a large part in her ultimately turning against the Scoobies and teaming up with the Mayor. On the surface Wilkins was providing all of the things that she hadn't had from the 'good guys', a place to live, support, nurturing and encouragement.

Had Giles tried harder, I don't think that the events in the alley would have transpired and the Buffyverse would have panned out very differently indeed.

 

[white avenger]

I think that Giles' indifference played a large part in her ultimately turning against the Scoobies and teaming up with the Mayor. On the surface Wilkins was providing all of the things that she hadn't had from the 'good guys', a place to live, support, nurturing and encouragement.

Had Giles tried harder, I don't think that the events in the alley would have transpired and the Buffyverse would have panned out very differently indeed.

I was trying to say just about the same thing, but, due to my slow typing, you beat me to it. Obviously, just as Faith in Season 3 was developed to be the dark counterpart of Buffy, Wilkins filled the same role with Giles. The comparisons had to be Joss' intention, not mere coincidence. Faith was Buffy's equivalent of Dark Willow, without bothering with the Wishverse element.

 

[BuffyElevated]

I think that Giles' indifference played a large part in her ultimately turning against the Scoobies and teaming up with the Mayor. On the surface Wilkins was providing all of the things that she hadn't had from the 'good guys', a place to live, support, nurturing and encouragement.

Had Giles tried harder, I don't think that the events in the alley would have transpired and the Buffyverse would have panned out very differently indeed.

Hmm... That's a pretty good point. Faith was definitely aching for a parental figure. And after seeing

Spoiler

their interaction in the comics

, I do think that Giles could have been an excellent Watcher to Faith if he had tried. But I stand by my opinion that at the time Faith came into the picture, Giles was pretty much blinded to anyone but Buffy and what was going on with her. Willow was about the only other person in the Scoobies that Giles ever showed any feelings about mentoring, IMO.

 

[white avenger]

I stand by my opinion that at the time Faith came into the picture, Giles was pretty much blinded to anyone but Buffy and what was going on with her. Willow was about the only other person in the Scoobies that Giles ever showed any feelings about mentoring, IMO.

But, as a Watcher, it was his job to NOT be blinded in any such way. Throughout the entire series, except for possibly the first few episode of Season 1, Giles has lost all objectivity when i comes to the execution of his job. This is understandable, certainly, since a large portion of the series involve the personal relationships of the principal characters, and I'm sure that none of us would have wanted to change that. The fact remains, however, and I personally think that, considering the way that Faith developed over the course of the series, that, while the actions themselves might have been Faith's, the result of those actions can be attributed as much if not more so, to the other characters, Giles and Buffy in particular. Did they ever actually try and help Faith deal with the death of the Assistant Mayor? The only one who actually understood what Faith was going through, the only one who "never gave up on her" was Angel, and he had just about as much of a reason NOT to believe in and trust her as any character in the Buffyverse, with the possible exception of Wes.

I don't know if Faith was another one of the characters who Joss originally planned to kill off after a few episodes, but whose popularity and potential changed his mind, or if it was his plan all along for the character, assuming that there was enough time, to play out exactly the way that she did. hat I do know is that, because of the way that her story has played out, Faith is one of my two favorite characters in the entire Buffyverse.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Which is what I think Faith would have thought if Giles offered her anything. Faith is fiercely independent, to a fault sometimes. She doesn't need anybody, and I think she accepts living in that motel as proof that she can get by on her own, even when Buffy has her mother and Watcher.

She did accept instruction from Gwendolyn Post, the ousted watcher who was looking for the Glove of Mynhegon. Faith does accept her instruction, somewhat grudgingly, and would have accepted Giles as her watcher if he had:

1. been more interested
2. sold her on the value of his services
3. had a clue how to relate to someone who was uneducated, in contrast to himself
4. had a clue how to relate to someone with a penchant for action, in contrast to himself

Where is his leadership? How does he make the job his own? He just acts like a civil servant, filling a position.

 

[Robb Stark]

But, as a Watcher, it was his job to NOT be blinded in any such way. Throughout the entire series, except for possibly the first few episode of Season 1, Giles has lost all objectivity when i comes to the execution of his job. This is understandable, certainly, since a large portion of the series involve the personal relationships of the principal characters, and I'm sure that none of us would have wanted to change that. The fact remains, however, and I personally think that, considering the way that Faith developed over the course of the series, that, while the actions themselves might have been Faith's, the result of those actions can be attributed as much if not more so, to the other characters, Giles and Buffy in particular. Did they ever actually try and help Faith deal with the death of the Assistant Mayor? The only one who actually understood what Faith was going through, the only one who "never gave up on her" was Angel, and he had just about as much of a reason NOT to believe in and trust her as any character in the Buffyverse, with the possible exception of Wes.

I don't know if Faith was another one of the characters who Joss originally planned to kill off after a few episodes, but whose popularity and potential changed his mind, or if it was his plan all along for the character, assuming that there was enough time, to play out exactly the way that she did. hat I do know is that, because of the way that her story has played out, Faith is one of my two favorite characters in the entire Buffyverse.

While I actually do like Giles, at the same time I do also think of him as a bit of a failure as a Watcher on the whole, and the points you raised about Faith illustrate that really well.

However, just about the entire cast beyond Willow attempted to help Faith after the assistant Mayor died. She refused them all and tried to kill Xander (who was probably the most open and non-judgemental of all of them). On top of that she tried to say Buffy killed the guy. Even after that, for a time, they still tried to help her.

 

[white avenger]

However, just about the entire cast beyond Willow attempted to help Faith after the assistant Mayor died.

On top of that she tried to say Buffy killed the guy. Even after that, for a time, they still tried to help her.

True, just about the entire cast did try to help Faith, but it didn't really seem to me that they tried hard enough, soon enough. Faith went through the exact same stages that my 7 year old granddaughter goes through whenever she gets caught doing something wrong. 1) 2) Runs away,"I don't care." (It's just got caught, and she hasn't thought up an excuse yet) 3) "I didn't do it," or "(Somebody else) did it." (She's thought about it for awhile now and is afraid of the punishment that she knows is coming) and, finally, 4) "I'll run away and (join the circus, become a pirate, go to work for an evil Mayor who will assure me that what I did was really okay) THEN they'll be sorry!" Finally, 5) "Okay, I did it. I'll take my punishment." (She's basically a good person, realizes that she's done something wrong, and may not like the idea, but just the same wants to take her punishment and get past it.

I can't remember anyone ever once saying, "Okay, Faith, a man got killed, and that's tragic, but it obviously was an accident. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and, bad as this is, we still love you, and we'll help you get through this," until Angel said pretty much exactly that. Sure, maybe she didn't give them time to say it, I'm not saying that some, even most, of the blame for what developed after that wasn't hers. There was plenty of accusation, and just as much condemnation for trying to put the blame on Buffy, but, after that, they pretty much gave up.

Of course, there were consequences. She DID kill some people after that, and almost killed Angel, which resulted in Buffy almost getting killed saving him, and then there was that whole body swap mess, but that was after Mayor Wilkins got his evil, if sincerely affectionate, hooks into her. None of that would ever happened if Giles had just done his job as Faith's Watcher properly in the first place.

 

[Lyri]

She did accept instruction from Gwendolyn Post, the ousted watcher who was looking for the Glove of Mynhegon. Faith does accept her instruction, somewhat grudgingly, and would have accepted Giles as her watcher if he had:

1. been more interested
2. sold her on the value of his services
3. had a clue how to relate to someone who was uneducated, in contrast to himself
4. had a clue how to relate to someone with a penchant for action, in contrast to himself

Where is his leadership? How does he make the job his own? He just acts like a civil servant, filling a position.

Faith accepts Post's position as her Watcher, yes, but she also thinks the same of Giles and follows his orders, or at least 'the ones she was going to do anyway'. But Post doesn't offer anything beyond that, and in fact seems quite proud of where Faith is living.

Maybe that's another reason Giles doesn't do anything to 'help' Faith - he thinks she's living more like a 'real' Slayer should live, as opposed to Buffy living with her mom.

I also think Giles was just a bit overwhelmed. He's the first Watcher in history to have two Slayers to train and look after. I think he was completely out of his depth and had no idea how to handle both of them at the same time - and neither of them were 'normal' Slayers to begin with. I think he found it to be too much and so his focus remained with the Slayer he'd grown accustomed and attached to.

 

[white avenger]

Maybe that's another reason Giles doesn't do anything to 'help' Faith - he thinks she's living more like a 'real' Slayer should live, as opposed to Buffy living with her mom.

Really? I've always thought from reading the "Tales Of The Slayers" and "Tales Of The Vampires" books that the "traditional" living arrangements for Slayers was with her Watcher, so that he could more effectively oversee her training, coordinate her slaying duties, and even provide for her upkeep, food, lodging,and whatever expenses that she might incur in the commission of her occupation. Certainly, Buffy, living with her mother, was atypical, but so was Faith, living as she did in what appeared to be at best a low rent hotel.

Almost certainly, the Council would expect the Slayer to be under the most direct type of supervision (control) that the Watcher could manage, and that would mean living under his roof whenever possible. Obviously, with Giles' apartment, that was impossible, and for the story line, it would have been at best impractical. Realistically, however, Giles would probably have been required to furnish Faith with suitable residence somewhere, and some sort of living expense allowance to provide for her upkeep. The Council might have thought of their Slayers as nothing more than a resource to be used at their discretion, but they would definitely want that resource kept in the best possible condition in order to most efficiently fulfill their missions.