I understand that Giles needed to kill of Ben in order to end Glory. But why was Giles' premeditated murder of Ben was just brushed under the rug, no problem what so ever, though Faith accidental slaying of Finch everyone acted like she was a monster? What are your thoughts on he differences between the two?
Giles didn't lie about Ben's murder (though it was also never bought up either until season seven) wheras when Faith was confronted about it she tried to pin it on Buffy (luckily Giles saw though that) and it was the final catalyst that lead to Faith turning evil where she did murder a few truly innocent people (and a presumably innocent demon), deliberately poisoned Angel and tried to help usher in an apocalypse
I understand that Giles needed to kill of Ben in order to end Glory. But why was Giles' premeditated murder of Ben was just brushed under the rug, no problem what so ever, though Faith accidental slaying of Finch everyone acted like she was a monster? What are your thoughts on he differences between the two?
Nobody knew Giles killed Ben/Glory. 😉 Everybody knew Faith killed Finch. Also, nobody thought Faith was a monster because of Finch. They were trying to help her!
Now, killing the Professor in cold-blood was monstrous!
Also, it is a lot more justified for Giles to kill Ben than Faith killing any of those people. Ben had shown he was ready to sacrifice anyone just so he could live. And Glory would have came back and could have killed a bunch of people. GO GILES! BOOO FAITH!
Seeing RedBoo Faith? At least I don't keep croissants in my bathtub.
But in the same breath, you could say that Giles killing Ben was cold blooded even if it could be justified. Giles could have called the council and had him sent to the UK to be placed under watch. There were other options Giles could have taken other than murder.
Buffy could have communicated and actually talked to Faith, Giles, and Wesley. Faith could not have been the only slayer to accidently kill someone. Although, communication has *Never* been a strong point in the Buffy universe.
Giles didn't lie about Ben's murder (though it was also never bought up either until season seven) wheras when Faith was confronted about it she tried to pin it on Buffy (luckily Giles saw though that) and it was the final catalyst that lead to Faith turning evil where she did murder a few truly innocent people (and a presumably innocent demon), deliberately poisoned Angel and tried to help usher in an apocalypse
What are your thoughts that if Faith had been offered more support from Buffy/Giles/the Scooby Gang, would she have gone evil? I personally don't think so, I believe that if the mayor had not been the one to offer support (monetary/safe housing/food/emotional support), that she would not have turned.
Nobody knew about it but even if they did Giles isn't afraid to say or do the hard things and he doesn't let his feelings for Buffy or his feelings at all stop him, he basically said to Buffy that he would kill Dawn if it came to that and she wasn't willing to, Ben was a sacrifice to Giles. It's very similar to Wesley so I feel like they just train watchers to be really cold people and monsters if they have to be. But they're very complicated people and characters. That's why in my mind Giles and Wesley aren't monsters and I don't think Faith's a monster either but for different reasons to them.
Yeah, I'm sure the Watchers could handle Ben (who could accuse them of kidnapping), or Glory (about as well as the Army of Byzantium did). Not that I think their special ops unit would let him live to arrive (about how like they tried to put a bullet into Faith/Buffy).
As for Faith. What you say makes me feel like we watched different shows. She was reached out to multiple times. At best, she brushed them off, at worst, she tried to kill. Ironically, the ONLY thing that would make me think they could do more is the fleabag motel she had to stay at, though she was offered some options (at least implied).
Giles is an officer of the Watcher's Council of Britain. Odds are, he has the right to execute dangerous supernatural criminals as part of his job duties. Given the risk of what an active Glory could do, again, the killing was justified.
This is the main issue but although it's only one thing it holds a lot of weight. I wouldn't feel cared for by anyone and I wouldn't feel particular loyalty to anyone if I had to live that way, so it was their right to choose to let Faith live that way but I don't see how anyone can be shocked when Faith acts selfishly and acts like she's the only one who matters when that's how she pretty much has to think to survive in her everyday life. I don't remember any implication that she was offered help but if you have evidence show it to me. I also think the show was making a point that Faith's living situation was bad when they had The Mayor give Faith an apartment and say "No slayer of mine is going to live in some fleabag motel."
I understand that Giles needed to kill of Ben in order to end Glory. But why was Giles' premeditated murder of Ben was just brushed under the rug, no problem what so ever, though Faith accidental slaying of Finch everyone acted like she was a monster? What are your thoughts on he differences between the two?
It wasn’t brushed under the rug, and there was a significant difference between the two.
Finch’s death was accidental and was the result of Faith having no control whatsoever. The idea is even tossed around that she maybe killed him knowingly, since the amount of time she had to react was enough to stop herself. It was a problem because she was callous with her abilities, and her lack of responsibility and accountability was troubling.
Giles was the complete other end of the spectrum. What he did with Ben was very controlled and very intentional, but it was 100% a necessary evil. They didn’t have a choice, and so Giles was the one who had to get his hands dirty. He even acknowledges this when he tells Ben that “she’s not like us”. Buffy is too clean to do what needs done, so the understanding in the group is that this had to happen. It was an equation of one life vs millions.
Think of it like a vigilante gunman and a Navy SEAL. A vigilante does things because they believe they have the power and authority to do so, regardless of what is right or wrong. A SEAL gets their hands dirty and does the same sorts of things, but under authorization and an understanding that it is for the greater good. One side is callous and arrogant and the other is collected and necessary.
This is the main issue but although it's only one thing it holds a lot of weight. I wouldn't feel cared for by anyone and I wouldn't feel particular loyalty to anyone if I had to live that way, so it was their right to choose to let Faith live that way but I don't see how anyone can be shocked when Faith acts selfishly and acts like she's the only one who matters when that's how she pretty much has to think to survive in her everyday life. I don't remember any implication that she was offered help but if you have evidence show it to me. I also think the show was making a point that Faith's living situation was bad when they had The Mayor give Faith an apartment and say "No slayer of mine is going to live in some fleabag motel."
Joyce invites Faith over, which Buffy hated. I think Joyce would've taken her in eventually had that continued (though partially in the hopes of Faith backing Buffy, or even better, replacing Buffy), but Faith was as uncomfortable with it as Buffy.
I think she'd been given a place around where Angel lived which was better, though Buffy would've hated that even more...but then maybe that would motivate them to finally do something more substantial than they had been. (I found it ironic because it was the only part where I think she was treated worse than she should've been, but it wasn't brought up.)
Still, I think it could've worked out were it not for two things: the rogue Watcher after the glove stoking Faith's insecurities and getting them to germinate, and then what Wesley had done just as Angel seemed to be making progress later on (and even then a hand was offered to Faith until it was clear she was with the Mayor). Had those 2 things not happened, I think Faith would've eventually come to trust them enough to accept more help from them.
Joyce invites Faith over, which Buffy hated. I think Joyce would've taken her in eventually had that continued (though partially in the hopes of Faith backing Buffy, or even better, replacing Buffy), but Faith was as uncomfortable with it as Buffy.
I think she'd been given a place around where Angel lived which was better, though Buffy would've hated that even more...but then maybe that would motivate them to finally do something more substantial than they had been. (I found it ironic because it was the only part where I think she was treated worse than she should've been, but it wasn't brought up.)
Still, I think it could've worked out were it not for two things: the rogue Watcher after the glove stoking Faith's insecurities and getting them to germinate, and then what Wesley had done just as Angel seemed to be making progress later on (and even then a hand was offered to Faith until it was clear she was with the Mayor). Had those 2 things not happened, I think Faith would've eventually come to trust them enough to accept more help from them.
I see what you're saying. I can't say with confidence that Faith would have accepted their help but if we had a scene of them offering and her rejecting them I would have a different opinion on the situation. Maybe if they knew fans would still be talking about it 20 years down the line they might have thought more about it who knows 😂 I'm definitely not happy that it comes across like Joyce and Giles weren't planning on giving Faith anything in exchange for their plan of her taking over Sunnydale to allow Buffy to go to a better college.
But from what we see on screen Faith was never reached out to regarding how she lives. Buffy reaches out when the huge betrayal happened with Gwendolyn Post and they reach out when the accidental murder happens. But that's regarding those situations. And after Consequences all they seem to be officially offering Faith is a test- to test her reflexes and abilities which is good because better reflexes could have prevented the accidental murder but again can that really be called help for Faith as a person- it was help for her as a slayer.
The only example I can think of right now for Faith being reached out to as a person is by Joyce inviting her over for Christmas and Faith actually accepted that invite in the end and showed up even though it meant admitting that she lied about having anything else to do.
Sincerely, I find absurd the moral problem of Giles killing Ben and these ridiculous moral problems of the show.
Buffy is a heroine, she can't kill Ben. Yes, absolutely.
-She killed Angel (with a human soul) in order to close the Hell mouth of Achatla. (In detail, worse, she condemned his soul to eternal hell). Angel's human soul was innocent. Why this problem was never considered?
-Scoobies, Giles, and Robin wanted to kill Spike (with a human soul) in season 7. Are they "murderers"? (None talked about that. No moral problems? Why? What make Ben's life more valuable than Angel and Spike's life (with a human soul)?)
-Buffy wanted/tried to kill Faith to fed Angel with her blood also because of personal vengeance. However, obviously, she cannot kill Ben in order to prevent Glory's return and save other people life. It's better to tell Ben to go in another town (and let Glory kill people). Yes, pure logic. 🤣
l remember Faith being very popular until she alienated about everyone with her attitude, and her pure focus on Buffy until that backfired. (But plenty of Fuffy fuel on that.) Xander still did one time and was nearly killed for it.
But yeah, the show has plot holes, character holes, moral holes big enough to drive an 18-wheeler through. Sometimes it amazes me I've become so fond of the show. I love the characters, and yet it's not even character driven, it's whatever serves the plot (and plot contrivances) this episode. Even what magic represents or losing one's soul to become a vampire changes season to season but we're not supposed to acknowledge it, pretending it's a work of brilliance worthy of academic study.
My guess is, cultivating a healthy respect for human life in a murder horny young girl you have been calling the chosen one for the last couple years is probably a good idea, and letting the Watcher do the questionable dirty work, that is, killing the werewolf in their human form, slitting the cultists throat, and making sure the small child possessed by a demon is drowned in holy water et alt. War is a dirty business. It's probably one of the reasons the watchers council isn't a healthy institution.
But in the same breath, you could say that Giles killing Ben was cold blooded even if it could be justified. Giles could have called the council and had him sent to the UK to be placed under watch. There were other options Giles could have taken other than murder.
Buffy could have communicated and actually talked to Faith, Giles, and Wesley. Faith could not have been the only slayer to accidently kill someone. Although, communication has *Never* been a strong point in the Buffy universe.
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What are your thoughts that if Faith had been offered more support from Buffy/Giles/the Scooby Gang, would she have gone evil? I personally don't think so, I believe that if the mayor had not been the one to offer support (monetary/safe housing/food/emotional support), that she would not have turned.
Yes, it was cold blooded, but it had a logical purpose to protect the human world, starting with Buffy and her friends. Faith killed some people for the sole purpose of helping the Mayor, a power hungry sorcerer who only wanted to bring destruction to the world. We can't even be certain that he wouldn't have killed Faith in the long run too. It was very wrong, and also stupid!
As for blaming other characters for what Faith did, pftttt! She was old enough to make her own decisions. 😛 You can blame Wesley for being a thoughtless idiot and Gwendolyn for manipulating Faith, but I can't hold much against the gang. They liked her until she went nuts and lied. The only argument I could agree with is that Giles could have helped Faith out by having her living with him.
Nobody knew about it but even if they did Giles isn't afraid to say or do the hard things and he doesn't let his feelings for Buffy or his feelings at all stop him, he basically said to Buffy that he would kill Dawn if it came to that and she wasn't willing to, Ben was a sacrifice to Giles. It's very similar to Wesley so I feel like they just train watchers to be really cold people and monsters if they have to be. But they're very complicated people and characters. That's why in my mind Giles and Wesley aren't monsters and I don't think Faith's a monster either but for different reasons to them.
I don't think Giles is a monster at all. He did what Buffy couldn't do, but that someone HAD to do. It would have been a very bad idea to leave Glory alive, as she would have went on a rampage. At that point she would have had no way to go back home. She'd have been extremely pissed off.
And as far as difficult moral choices go, this was a pretty simple one. Like I said earlier, Ben had had a chance to do the selfless thing, but he didn't. Why save someone like him when it would have cost the lives of many many more, including Giles' family?
Some of what Faith did was pretty terrible. Plus, unlike Spike and Angel she had a soul when she perpetrated these acts.
Yeah, I'm sure the Watchers could handle Ben (who could accuse them of kidnapping), or Glory (about as well as the Army of Byzantium did). Not that I think their special ops unit would let him live to arrive (about how like they tried to put a bullet into Faith/Buffy).
As for Faith. What you say makes me feel like we watched different shows. She was reached out to multiple times. At best, she brushed them off, at worst, she tried to kill. Ironically, the ONLY thing that would make me think they could do more is the fleabag motel she had to stay at, though she was offered some options (at least implied).
No, that's a terrible idea. This is the kind of reasoning that always leads to terrible consequences. The Watchers' Council proved time after time that they were incompetent and useless. I would never have left Glory in their hands.
But I agree, multiple people tried to help Faith, but she didn't want to give them the benefit of the doubt, always expecting the worst out of them. It would have required a very good person who could have played a parental role and whom Faith would have been able to respect.
This is the main issue but although it's only one thing it holds a lot of weight. I wouldn't feel cared for by anyone and I wouldn't feel particular loyalty to anyone if I had to live that way, so it was their right to choose to let Faith live that way but I don't see how anyone can be shocked when Faith acts selfishly and acts like she's the only one who matters when that's how she pretty much has to think to survive in her everyday life. I don't remember any implication that she was offered help but if you have evidence show it to me. I also think the show was making a point that Faith's living situation was bad when they had The Mayor give Faith an apartment and say "No slayer of mine is going to live in some fleabag motel."
It wasn’t brushed under the rug, and there was a significant difference between the two.
Finch’s death was accidental and was the result of Faith having no control whatsoever. The idea is even tossed around that she maybe killed him knowingly, since the amount of time she had to react was enough to stop herself. It was a problem because she was callous with her abilities, and her lack of responsibility and accountability was troubling.
Giles was the complete other end of the spectrum. What he did with Ben was very controlled and very intentional, but it was 100% a necessary evil. They didn’t have a choice, and so Giles was the one who had to get his hands dirty. He even acknowledges this when he tells Ben that “she’s not like us”. Buffy is too clean to do what needs done, so the understanding in the group is that this had to happen. It was an equation of one life vs millions.
Think of it like a vigilante gunman and a Navy SEAL. A vigilante does things because they believe they have the power and authority to do so, regardless of what is right or wrong. A SEAL gets their hands dirty and does the same sorts of things, but under authorization and an understanding that it is for the greater good. One side is callous and arrogant and the other is collected and necessary.
I agree with all that you said, but I think one element about it that bothered Seeing Red is that Giles killing Ben was never brought up after that. I know I said others weren't aware of it, but logically they should have questioned what they should do with Glory after Buffy's death and if Giles was honest he would have had to mention what he did. The show had a tendency of skipping over certain important things. Just like how they skipped over Faith nearly killing Xander or big moments like the aftermath of Grave with Willow.
I see what you're saying. I can't say with confidence that Faith would have accepted their help but if we had a scene of them offering and her rejecting them I would have a different opinion on the situation. Maybe if they knew fans would still be talking about it 20 years down the line they might have thought more about it who knows 😂 I'm definitely not happy that it comes across like Joyce and Giles weren't planning on giving Faith anything in exchange for their plan of her taking over Sunnydale to allow Buffy to go to a better college.
But from what we see on screen Faith was never reached out to regarding how she lives. Buffy reaches out when the huge betrayal happened with Gwendolyn Post and they reach out when the accidental murder happens. But that's regarding those situations. And after Consequences all they seem to be officially offering Faith is a test- to test her reflexes and abilities which is good because better reflexes could have prevented the accidental murder but again can that really be called help for Faith as a person- it was help for her as a slayer.
The only example I can think of right now for Faith being reached out to as a person is by Joyce inviting her over for Christmas and Faith actually accepted that invite in the end and showed up even though it meant admitting that she lied about having anything else to do.
I think the explanation was always that the other characters thought Faith didn't want any help. It would have required someone to forcibly come in and act as a parental figure for Faith. Angel tried to play that role a bit, but, imo, it was too late.
Sincerely, I find absurd the moral problem of Giles killing Ben and these ridiculous moral problems of the show.
Buffy is a heroine, she can't kill Ben. Yes, absolutely.
-She killed Angel (with a human soul) in order to close the Hell mouth of Achatla. (In detail, worse, she condemned his soul to eternal hell). Angel's human soul was innocent. Why this problem was never considered?
-Scoobies, Giles, and Robin wanted to kill Spike (with a human soul) in season 7. Are they "murderers"? (None talked about that. No moral problems? Why? What make Ben's life more valuable than Angel and Spike's life (with a human soul)?)
-Buffy wanted/tried to kill Faith to fed Angel with her blood also because of personal vengeance. However, obviously, she cannot kill Ben in order to prevent Glory's return and save other people life. It's better to tell Ben to go in another town (and let Glory kill people). Yes, pure logic. 🤣
The difference is that both Angel and Spike are literal mass murderers. Yes, they didn't have a soul when they accomplished this, but they still have that attached to them.
Also, in the case of killing Angel at the end of season 2, Buffy had to or everyone would have been sucked into hell. Keeping Ben alive is not a good plan, but it doesn't spell immediate doom for everyone. Buffy still thought she could just stop Glory from opening the dimensional gate.
As for killing Faith to save Angel, it was not for personal vengeance. It just seemed to be the only way to save Angel and she would have had to defeat Faith eventually to stop the Mayor.
thrasherpixNot tongue in cheek enough. I meant the WC would kill him anyway, unless she turned to Glory, in which case she'd kill them all as she did that army. So yes, terrible idea handing him over to the WC (among other reasons I could think of)
The difference is that both Angel and Spike are literal mass murderers. Yes, they didn't have a soul when they accomplished this, but they still have that attached to them.
1) Following these professed moralities, a "human life" is a" human life", doesn't matter if it is a mass murderer. In particular, if we talk about the "human soul". Isn't the human soul more important than the body (according to some religions, it is? So which criterion is used in order to define a scale of value of lives (humans, slayers, vampires, demons, vampires with human souls, werewolves etc?) Obviously, the show never addressed these "moral problems" because this was too problematic.
2) A "murder" is still a "murder" following these moralities. Killing a mass murderer doesn't change the fact that it is "murder". If Angel and Spike had been humans (biologically), the show and everyone (audience) would have been elaborate every kind of "moral argument" about the matter, however being vampires (despite the human soul) none cared about the bullshit: you killed a man! You have taken a human life! etc.
3) Also, the human soul of Angel was innocent of Angelus (the demon) similarly as Ben being innocent of Glory's crime. The show never addressed the level of responsibility of a vampire'actions to the human soul. Condemning his soul to eternal hell surely wasn't "justice".
Also, in the case of killing Angel at the end of season 2, Buffy had to or everyone would have been sucked into hell. Keeping Ben alive is not a good plan, but it doesn't spell immediate doom for everyone. Buffy still thought she could just stop Glory from opening the dimensional gate.
Yes, Buffy had to kill Angel like Buffy had to kill Ben in order to save other people.
Buffy didn't think to stop Glory. She told Ben (and Glory) to go to another town and stay away from her loved ones.
BUFFY: Tell her it's over. She missed her shot. (Ben watches her, not moving) She goes. She ever, *ever* comes near me and mine again...
BEN: We won't. I swear.
So, according to her speech, you can conclude that what Buffy cared about the most is to protect her lovers, family, and friends; other people are secondary for her. Glory can go in another part of the world (obviously killing) according to Buffy. This is not heroic, but ridiculous talking.
As for killing Faith to save Angel, it was not for personal vengeance. It just seemed to be the only way to save Angel and she would have had to defeat Faith eventually to stop the Mayor.
Yes, it was also for personal vengeance, It wasn't necessary to kill Faith. Buffy could have given her blood to save Angel without die and kill anyone (like she did at the end).
Also, killing Faith wasn't absolutely linked to stop the Mayor. Buffy could have stopped the Mayor without killing Faith.
C'mon, don't invent excuses for the show plot holes and faulty moral problems.
thrasherpixI'd have liked to seen an ep in which Buffy faces real consequences in letting killers like Dru and even Harmony go that affected her personally (rather than collateral damage she hears very little about), especially not sparing others for jealousy
Nobody knew Giles killed Ben/Glory. 😉 Everybody knew Faith killed Finch. Also, nobody thought Faith was a monster because of Finch. They were trying to help her!
Now, killing the Professor in cold-blood was monstrous!
Also, it is a lot more justified for Giles to kill Ben than Faith killing any of those people. Ben had shown he was ready to sacrifice anyone just so he could live. And Glory would have came back and could have killed a bunch of people. GO GILES! BOOO FAITH!
But in the same breath, you could say that Giles killing Ben was cold blooded even if it could be justified. Giles could have called the council and had him sent to the UK to be placed under watch. There were other options Giles could have taken other than murder.
Buffy could have communicated and actually talked to Faith, Giles, and Wesley. Faith could not have been the only slayer to accidently kill someone. Although, communication has *Never* been a strong point in the Buffy universe.
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What are your thoughts that if Faith had been offered more support from Buffy/Giles/the Scooby Gang, would she have gone evil? I personally don't think so, I believe that if the mayor had not been the one to offer support (monetary/safe housing/food/emotional support), that she would not have turned.
Giles is an officer of the Watcher's Council of Britain. Odds are, he has the right to execute dangerous supernatural criminals as part of his job duties. Given the risk of what an active Glory could do, again, the killing was justified.
There's never any indication that the council has any official standing. Giles may feel the killing is necessary (and it probably is), but he certainly has no legal right to do so. And justification would only apply if he could convince people that Ben was the alternate body for a hell goddess.
@Kendar : The Watchers are said to have connections and resources, I'm willing to bet, even if they don't work with the consent of the shadow government, they could make a extrajudicial murder case go away for an operative as valuable as Giles, if needed.
As far as having government sanction, I argue they probably do. Consider, Vampires have only been a secret for just over two hundred years, prior to that, every government would have known about them, and would have had to hunt them. Short answer, the Watchers are a relic of a post reformation anti vampire team assembled by the Crown. Long answer, the shadowmen made a covenant with Nimrod when they anointed him as King. Either one works for me.
But in the same breath, you could say that Giles killing Ben was cold blooded even if it could be justified. Giles could have called the council and had him sent to the UK to be placed under watch. There were other options Giles could have taken other than murder.
No, I don't think so. Even if they had Ben locked up all he needed to do was turn back into Glory and there would have been no way to contain her. She would have been out and free in a New York second! Killing Ben was the only way to keep Glory from coming back........ And if she did, she would have been very pissed off for sure and who knows what she would have done then.
For all we know, Giles might have already killed someone before during his Ripper days. In fact wasn't there a reference to something like that in one of the epi's?
Giles just did what needed to be done, however unpleasant it was..........kind of like 007!
I would argue that their decision to send three assassins to murder Faith qualifies as a stance. It was made pretty clear in the episode that they were told to take her out back and pull an “Old Yeller” by the Council.
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