Giles in "Choices" vs "The Gift"

So you propose a meta-explanation? I don't like it when people do that because there's no way to verify writer's intentions and also because it basically kills every discussion. Every meaningful thread on this board can be ended with because writers. Do we really want that?

It's not a meta explanation, it's explaining the difference between the direction of TV show Spike's change vs S8/S9 vamps. In the TV show, vamps were still uniformally evil. In S8/S9, they say all vamps have a choice (??). The point is basically this:
That is something that the comic book writers have now decided is cannon, (and grrrrr, argh, Buffy is a murderer, etc), but as of The Gift, the MO of Buffy and co as it related to the morality of slaying was vampires yes, (unless chipped or souled), humans no.

Personally, I don't like the idea that Spike is special. It's baseless and it diminishes the character, hell, it completely ruins him.

There are two main ways in which Spike is different: One, he has a chip; Two, he fell in love with Buffy. Having the chip wouldn't have stopped him from being evil (as we see in As You Were), or even from getting yet another doctor from getting the chip out. Obviously the reasons for his lack of action were the writers' need to keep him on the show, but we don't like meta explanations, do we? So we put it down to (a) stupidity, and (b) his personality--he's different. His lack of action demonstrates he's 'special'. Angelus, for example, would've just talked people to death First-style, or just gone for mental hurt and manipulation the whole way through.

Spike helps Buffy not because he's good but because he has a good enough reason to do so

Yeah, no one is contesting this. It is absolutely true.

He realizes that his chip doesn't work against Buffy, what's the next thing he does? He attacks an innocent. How's that for a change? No, Spike never changes.

He's still evil. He can never be truly good or selfless without a soul. There's no way for that kind of change to happen. But while he doesn't change completely, he does change. Actually, there are two ways of looking at it: that Spike himself doesn't change, only his motives do (i.e. the women he changes for); or that Spike does undergo a dramatic change--he is unable to be a man or vamp, and manages to changes (or chooses to gain the ability/the choice to genuinely change) in choosing man. I can't argue against either because I think both are valid.
 
Gum Gnome33
Gum Gnome33
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So we put it down to (a) stupidity

Makes sense to me, I mean, Spike even admits his own stupidity, right?

I don't exactly have a reputation for being a thinker. I follow my blood which doesn't exactly rush in the direction of my brain so I make a lot of mistakes.

To be honest, I prefer stupid Spike over special snowflake Spike.

His lack of action demonstrates he's 'special'. Angelus, for example, would've just talked people to death First-style, or just gone for mental hurt and manipulation the whole way through.

I'd say it demonstrates his pragmatism because the chip is what keeps Buffy from staking him. The moment Spike realizes he's obsessed over Buffy he stops trying to remove that chip, it even takes place in the same episode.

or even from getting yet another doctor from getting the chip out.

Fun fact: he doesn't need a doctor. Raid the nearest hospital, grab some Cobalt-60 or whatever radionuclide they use there and irradiate the damn chip. He's dead, it's not like radiation can harm him. And he calls Buffy a moron without school. What a dumbass.

Spike does undergo a dramatic change--he is unable to be a man or vamp, and manages to changes (or chooses to gain the ability/the choice to genuinely change) in choosing man.

What does that even mean? He changes because he choses to brainwash himself? That's not a change. He simply realizes that after his rape attempt Buffy will not sleep with him again. He decides to get a soul because he wants to **** her, OK? Everything he does he does for the same reason, to **** the slayer. Even in season 7.
 
[MENTION=11194]EVIL UU[/MENTION], In my eyes in season 7 for Spike its definatly not all about '******* the slayer' as you say. Its more than that he loves her and everything shes about, not just to get her into bed - and that comes from the man himself.

Back to the thread topic - I think Giles said what im sure alot of people were thinking so i guess he did the right thing 🙂
 
I think there's a pretty big distinction between the cases. For starters, for all the hype and bluster of the Ascension, Buffy did take him out pretty cleanly and smartly. She blew him up, just like The Judge. With Glory, it was different. Glory was already giving Buffy more than she could handle physically, and if she completed the ritual involving Dawn the walls of reality would literally come crumbling down. Not really the same case as The Mayor.

However, Giles does change a lot over the course of the series. He goes from being a seemingly stalwart and true guardian for Buffy and her friends to highly manipulative in S7 to borderline evil in Angel S5.
 
I think there's a pretty big distinction between the cases. For starters, for all the hype and bluster of the Ascension, Buffy did take him out pretty cleanly and smartly. She blew him up, just like The Judge. With Glory, it was different. Glory was already giving Buffy more than she could handle physically, and if she completed the ritual involving Dawn the walls of reality would literally come crumbling down. Not really the same case as The Mayor.

However, Giles does change a lot over the course of the series. He goes from being a seemingly stalwart and true guardian for Buffy and her friends to highly manipulative in S7 to borderline evil in Angel S5.
Giles isn't even in S5, how is he evil? If you mean for not trusting them at W&H can you really blame him for being wary? He has never truly forgiven Angel for murdering Jenny and torturing him. If what Wesley's robot dad said was true about the evil of Wolfram&Hart being well known, then I understand how Giles would be very wary of anyone named CEO of that place.
 
Giles isn't even in S5, how is he evil? If you mean for not trusting them at W&H can you really blame him for being wary? He has never truly forgiven Angel for murdering Jenny and torturing him. If what Wesley's robot dad said was true about the evil of Wolfram&Hart being well known, then I understand how Giles would be very wary of anyone named CEO of that place.

That is what I'm referring to. When Fred, pretty much the nicest person ever (and a friend of Willow's), is quite literally dying and Angel calls begging for help, Giles won't lift a finger. I know the things that he's been through with Angelus (not Angel, and Giles made it pretty clear in S3 that he believes there's a distinction) and that it has to be disconcerting seeing Angel work at a company like Wolfram & Hart, but you would think that after all the times Angel has saved the world and the lives of every single person in the Scooby gang when he was there, that Giles would help him save a life, or at least try.

Plus, without Angel (and W&H) in S7, they all die and the world ends. Buffy has made it very clear by the end of S7 that she trusts Angel (and Spike, who's there too). For Giles to not even tell her that Angel is in trouble or try and help is pretty heinous in my books. And I always sort of took it as implied that that's the reason why Buffy isn't speaking to Giles in S8 and has pretty much excommunicated him.
 
[MENTION=11975]Always Bangel[/MENTION]

As far as I'm concerned Giles in season 8 is pretty much a villain. He's not as rotten as Angel but he's still pretty damn rotten. Disgusting, petty little bastard, I always disliked Giles but season 8 provided me with more hate fodder than I could ever hope for 😀
 
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