OK,what did you guys think of Giles in "Lies My Parents Told Me?" He seemed really tough on Buffy, and sure, she can act like a bitca🙂p)but sometimes I found Giles to be a little TOO pushy. And what was his deal with Spike anyway??
Giles in "Lies My Parents Told me"
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Blondie Bear
Zydrate Addict
He saw Spike as a weakness because Buffy had been sleeping with him and because of his First-trigger. Buffy didn't see it that way. Giles wanted her to get rid of Spike; she didn't want to get rid of him because she saw him as an asset, not a weakness. I think Giles expected to find Buffy just as dependent on him as she had always been and was kind of p-ed off when she wasn't. Almost everything he did was calculated to undermine her confidence and make her rely on him again, which was abhorrent, especially after "leaving for her own good" so she could grow up.
Joyce Summers
Mom of a Chocoholic
I don't quite agree with BB. I never saw it as Giles wanting Buffy to be dependent on him once more, I just think he was as overly concerned for her as a parent would be and it came out badly.
In a way he saw Spike as the inappropriate boyfriend and like a normal parent in a normal household would throw the unwanted boy out, this is BtVS and so the equivalent was Giles trying to take Spike out of the picture completely.
He also had (fairly reasonable) concerns about the danger Spike brought to the group. The First did have control over him and thus made him dangerous.
However I do agree that Giles was presumptuous of the whole thing and did make several bad decisions within this episode. And the (perhaps temporary) destruction of the Buffy/Giles relationship broke my heart.
In a way he saw Spike as the inappropriate boyfriend and like a normal parent in a normal household would throw the unwanted boy out, this is BtVS and so the equivalent was Giles trying to take Spike out of the picture completely.
He also had (fairly reasonable) concerns about the danger Spike brought to the group. The First did have control over him and thus made him dangerous.
However I do agree that Giles was presumptuous of the whole thing and did make several bad decisions within this episode. And the (perhaps temporary) destruction of the Buffy/Giles relationship broke my heart.
palabravampiress
Broke my heart, too. They need to patch up like pronto.
ILLYRIAN
Could it be that Giles was a Lynyrd Skynyrd Free Bird kinda guy. Where as Spike was a Billy Idol look-a-like with a liking of the Sex Pistols
Kana
Soulless human
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I definitely see both sides. Going behind Buffy's back bothers me mainly for practical reasons. As 'messy' as Empty Places was, at least it was an open confrontation.
As for the issues with Spike, it is an issue. As hard as Buffy seemed apparently, her feelings towards Spike seemed to emotionally based and Buffy's emotions are both her strength and her weakness (see various eps in pretty much every season for support), Giles saw it here as a weakness.
Giles is focused on the big picture and locking into this Watcher's Council authority mode. There are merits and dangers of that too. Giles with all his experience should know this.
As for the issues with Spike, it is an issue. As hard as Buffy seemed apparently, her feelings towards Spike seemed to emotionally based and Buffy's emotions are both her strength and her weakness (see various eps in pretty much every season for support), Giles saw it here as a weakness.
Giles is focused on the big picture and locking into this Watcher's Council authority mode. There are merits and dangers of that too. Giles with all his experience should know this.
Edmund Blackadder
Scooby
Spike had a trigger in his head - The First could have used it at any time to kill all the potentials and Buffy.
I don't agree with Giles way of handling it but I understand why he did it.
Buffy says in that episode that she would let Dawn die if it meant saving the world but for some reason she has allowed Spike to stay in the house with all the potentials when he could potentially be the biggest risk to them.
Giles was correct in her being clouded in regards to him, he could see what she couldn't.
I wasn't overly impressed with his petulant child act that followed, BIG issues with Giles after this, but in my opinion he had the right idea - just executed it incorrectly, I mean, Wood - seriously?
I don't agree with Giles way of handling it but I understand why he did it.
Buffy says in that episode that she would let Dawn die if it meant saving the world but for some reason she has allowed Spike to stay in the house with all the potentials when he could potentially be the biggest risk to them.
Giles was correct in her being clouded in regards to him, he could see what she couldn't.
I wasn't overly impressed with his petulant child act that followed, BIG issues with Giles after this, but in my opinion he had the right idea - just executed it incorrectly, I mean, Wood - seriously?
Hello Cutie
Save_us.222
I think the reason he was tough on Buffy was a mixture of different things.
Firstly, i think he was testing her in a way, seeing if she was really as strong and as ready as she thought she was for this whole final battle, and being a leader and the whole shebang (that's the whole dialogue).
Secondly, he's blatantly doing it on purpose to take her mind off whatever else could be happening- if she's concentrating on justifying herself etc to Giles, she's not gonna be thinking "hmmm, is he distracting me? i wonder why?"
Thirdly, its definitely that Giles sees Spike as a threat. Not in the sense that he's usurping Giles' position in Buffy being more reliant on him than Giles, but in a threat that could ultimately make her weak.
He feels there is misplaced faith in someone that, in his opinion can't be redeemed, despite the soul, and that currently could be extremely dangerous to have around, and he feels that Buffy's judgement is clouded on this issue. He also feels that Buffy is placing too much reliance on him in an emotional way... not in a love sense, but even Buffy says "I'm not ready for you to not be here"- she needs him in an emotional sense, to steady her, hold her up and help her continue the fight. So Giles is worried that if a decision comes up involving Spike (i dunno, say Spike dies and a potential lives), she might make what he sees as 'the wrong choice' because she places too much reliance on him, and through doing so, could potentially make the wrong choices, not just for herself (emotionally and physically) but ultimately for the people she leads.
Firstly, i think he was testing her in a way, seeing if she was really as strong and as ready as she thought she was for this whole final battle, and being a leader and the whole shebang (that's the whole dialogue).
Secondly, he's blatantly doing it on purpose to take her mind off whatever else could be happening- if she's concentrating on justifying herself etc to Giles, she's not gonna be thinking "hmmm, is he distracting me? i wonder why?"
Thirdly, its definitely that Giles sees Spike as a threat. Not in the sense that he's usurping Giles' position in Buffy being more reliant on him than Giles, but in a threat that could ultimately make her weak.
He feels there is misplaced faith in someone that, in his opinion can't be redeemed, despite the soul, and that currently could be extremely dangerous to have around, and he feels that Buffy's judgement is clouded on this issue. He also feels that Buffy is placing too much reliance on him in an emotional way... not in a love sense, but even Buffy says "I'm not ready for you to not be here"- she needs him in an emotional sense, to steady her, hold her up and help her continue the fight. So Giles is worried that if a decision comes up involving Spike (i dunno, say Spike dies and a potential lives), she might make what he sees as 'the wrong choice' because she places too much reliance on him, and through doing so, could potentially make the wrong choices, not just for herself (emotionally and physically) but ultimately for the people she leads.
anyatara
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Giles sucks, Spike rocks, let's move on already...Kidding 😛
Spike was killing people again, Giles knew that Buffy wouldn't kill him, even though she sacrificied Angel. The only way he could kill him was distracting her and getting the job done. He wasn't trying to be cruel, maybe he seemed like it, but as people say you gotta be cruel to be kind, he was just trying to help.
Spike was killing people again, Giles knew that Buffy wouldn't kill him, even though she sacrificied Angel. The only way he could kill him was distracting her and getting the job done. He wasn't trying to be cruel, maybe he seemed like it, but as people say you gotta be cruel to be kind, he was just trying to help.
LittleMissLikesToFight
Into Every Generation...
While in the end we know if it weren't for spike, they probably wouldn't have made it through the events of Chosen, i was definitely on Giles' side at first. I mean, the guy was a threat, and was horribly manipulated by the first.... i could see where Giles felt it wasn't worth the risk.
Blondie Bear
Zydrate Addict
The timing of Giles' attempted murder of Spike bothered me. They were trying to undo the trigger at the time; there was a better-than-average chance that Spike could be "cured" of the trigger and become as much of an asset as Angel had been, if not more (because he wouldn't be sulking in a corner half the time 🙂). Instead of continuing to try to fix the trigger and make Spike an uncontested member of the team, Giles decided--after one single attempt--that it wasn't going to work and Spike needed to be put down. Robin egging him on didn't help. Maybe if Giles had tried to have Spike killed while he was still firmly under the control of the First--while he was in the basement or newly out of it, for example--it wouldn't have been quite so bad and Giles could have come off as the good guy.
crabby patty
Potential
I think Giles didnt fall for all the "Vampire with a soul" stuff. At the end of the day he put the job first. He saw that Vampires were evil monsters soul or no soul. He had seen what had happened with Angel losing his soul and didnt want to risk it with Spike. He knew where he was with a souless Vamp, but a Vamp with a soul was more vunerable perhaps more complex.
Edmund Blackadder
Scooby
Something just hit me.
Of all the people on the show, and the one thing Buffy NEVER took into account, Giles is the ONE who has been hardest hit by a Vampire with a Soul who loses his ability to control himself.
I just found a new respect for what Giles did.
This was ALL about Buffy being safe.
C
crabby patty
exactly! You cant blame him for not being a fan of the Vampire!
to go behind buffy back was wrong.
but i am glad it was geils that tried to kill spike if it was xander everyone would have said jeasury. they did not think they could cure spike of the trigger. and buffy made many mistage with spike one of witch was taking out the chip with out talking to everybody. that put there life in danger.
just a side note in every season spike has been chip keeping him alive cost people there lifes, or put people in danger. so geils did not trust buffy with spike
but i am glad it was geils that tried to kill spike if it was xander everyone would have said jeasury. they did not think they could cure spike of the trigger. and buffy made many mistage with spike one of witch was taking out the chip with out talking to everybody. that put there life in danger.
just a side note in every season spike has been chip keeping him alive cost people there lifes, or put people in danger. so geils did not trust buffy with spike
IdiotJed
Glutton for punishment
Another reason the season didn't make sense. Buffy wasn't in her right head. She'd sacrifice Dawn if it meant saving the wrold, but not Spike, who was, at best at that point, like a puppy. It all worked out okay, but the reasoning behind it, I'm totally on Gile's side.
white avenger
white avenger
At the point where it would have become necessary to sacrifice Dawn in order to save the world, the battle would have fought and her death would've been the only thing that would close the opening between the dimensions, thereby saving not only our world, but all the others. At the point where it became necessary to sacrifice Spike to close the hellmouth, she did it. Rather than sacrifice Dawn, Buffy jumped in her place. Rather than tear the amulet off of Spike's neck and dragging him bodily out of the hellmouth, she left him there to die. She HAD learned, and when the moment came, she DID sacrifice Spike to save the world.
Before that time, Spike was, as she told Giles, "the most powerful fighter we have." Spike is the ONLY single person she had ever fought who was so close to being her equal that the outcome was always in doubt. (Well, there WAS Glory, but she got beaten in the end. Okay, Giles strangled Ben, but the good guys won in the end and Glory died.). Until the moment when the final decision became necessary, keeping Spike around was a calculated risk, certainly, but one that, as the leader, she had every right to take, even if it had meant the death of one or more Potentials, or one or more of the Scoobies. As a fighter, even when Faith showed up, Spike was still her strongest warrior. When the time came, when the choice had to be made, she made it, hard as it was. She left Spike to die in order to achieve victory.
Buffy was right, Giles was wrong. It was Giles. not Buffy, who refused to see the big picture. If Giles and Robin had been successful, the war, and the world itself, would have been lost. I sincerely hope she rubbed their noses in that fact for the entire time gap between the end of Season 7, and the beginning of Season 8, because they most certainly deserved at least that much. Buffy had no time for vendettas, and that is exactly what both Giles and Wood were trying to carry out, Robin for the loss of his mother, and Giles simply because he "wanted something better," for Buffy, as though that were his decision to make.
Before that time, Spike was, as she told Giles, "the most powerful fighter we have." Spike is the ONLY single person she had ever fought who was so close to being her equal that the outcome was always in doubt. (Well, there WAS Glory, but she got beaten in the end. Okay, Giles strangled Ben, but the good guys won in the end and Glory died.). Until the moment when the final decision became necessary, keeping Spike around was a calculated risk, certainly, but one that, as the leader, she had every right to take, even if it had meant the death of one or more Potentials, or one or more of the Scoobies. As a fighter, even when Faith showed up, Spike was still her strongest warrior. When the time came, when the choice had to be made, she made it, hard as it was. She left Spike to die in order to achieve victory.
Buffy was right, Giles was wrong. It was Giles. not Buffy, who refused to see the big picture. If Giles and Robin had been successful, the war, and the world itself, would have been lost. I sincerely hope she rubbed their noses in that fact for the entire time gap between the end of Season 7, and the beginning of Season 8, because they most certainly deserved at least that much. Buffy had no time for vendettas, and that is exactly what both Giles and Wood were trying to carry out, Robin for the loss of his mother, and Giles simply because he "wanted something better," for Buffy, as though that were his decision to make.
Kana
Soulless human
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I do agree about Giles deferring to Buffy but I don't think the events of Chosen should be used as an argument because neither Giles nor Buffy had any idea the amulet was going to turn up, that was dumb luck, not to mention that Spike was cured as a result of Giles and Wood's intervention but I agree that going behind Buffy's back was wrong way to go. If formally they change leaders, that's ok, I can actually go with that but splitting off into private factions is not only dangerous but undermining. Giles made the error that has still hurt their relationship to this day.
Tranquillity
That'll put marzipan in your pie plate bingo
I suppose i always felt a bit sorry for Giles in season seven - he never was really sure of his place. He left in season six so that buffy could grow up and find her independence and because she didn't need a watcher anymore and she did that. But when he came back he was sort of stuck between roles - a little bit father, a little bit watcher, a little bit mentor, a little bit teacher - yet he wasn't really needed for any of them (he should have just tried "friend" and 'ally'). So i always saw his decision to side with Wood as a consequence of this displacement and an attempt to try and find a position in the group again. I do think it was wrong to go behind buffy's back, it was handeled with deception and really, buffy and Giles's relationship should demand more honsesty and respect between them.
white avenger
white avenger
Name one other champion available to Buffy in Season 7 who had Spike's strength, experience, and fighting skill. The truth of the matter is that no one, not even Faith when she finally showed up on the scene, was Spike's equal. He was, in Buffy's words, "The strongest fighter we have." Even without the advent of the Scythe and the amulet, Buffy and Spike were at least 75% of the total fighting force. All of the othere were either tied up in research, training, or were off somewhere gathering more Potentials.
Oh, I forgot Andrew. He was busy in the kitchen making funnel cakes and eating Hot Pockets.
Kana
Soulless human
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Buffy is a girl of her emotions. It wasn't Spike's fighting ability that won the day in the end, it was mainly the amulet and not to mention that Spike's cure happened as a result of Wood and Giles intervention. Had Buffy not pushed, there is no telling what might have happened. I'm not saying Spike would have definitely been a threat but things did sort of work out and it wasn't all down to Spike, or Spike being there (we could assume that Angel could have worn the amulet had Spike not been there, or Faith.)
Like I said, not agreeing with Giles but I don't think it was all logic on Buffy's part. She clearly didn't just *need* him as fighter.
Like I said, not agreeing with Giles but I don't think it was all logic on Buffy's part. She clearly didn't just *need* him as fighter.
white avenger
white avenger
It didn't really matter WHY Buffy needed Spike, whether it was because of his admittedly superior fighting skills, she really did love him, she liked his poetry, or they sat late into the night playing Old Maids. The fact was that she believed Spike was necessary to somehow aid her in her fight. Giles had no right to take it upon himself, especially at the urging of Robin Wood, to plot the destruction of the one person Buffy trusted to guard her back, indeed the only one really capable of doing so.
Buffy needed backup of a type that Giles, Xander, or Willow COULD NOT provide. They simply weren't strong enough. Spike was. As long as Buffy kept her eye on him, which she did most of the time, (the rest of the time he seemed to be voluntarily chained away in the basement) she could handle him. On the other hand, who could she trust to protect the gang if something were to happen to her? Remember, all of this was before Faith showed up. Buffy and Spike were the only super powered fighters there. By the time Faith arrived, the issue was pretty much settled.
Buffy needed backup of a type that Giles, Xander, or Willow COULD NOT provide. They simply weren't strong enough. Spike was. As long as Buffy kept her eye on him, which she did most of the time, (the rest of the time he seemed to be voluntarily chained away in the basement) she could handle him. On the other hand, who could she trust to protect the gang if something were to happen to her? Remember, all of this was before Faith showed up. Buffy and Spike were the only super powered fighters there. By the time Faith arrived, the issue was pretty much settled.