Giles in "The Gift"

[Hale Caesar]

Seriously, How badass was Giles in "The Gift"? I haven't seen this moment get much attention.

While everyone was being sappy and dying (maybe i'm being a little insensitive lol), what was Giles doing? He was, arguably, doing the darkest things we ever see in Buffy or Angel. Giles knowingly and willingly killed Ben, a human. He doesn't do it under some spell or in rage, he does it because he knows its what the world needs. What I find the most fascinating is that he is such a strong character that he isn't affected by what he did. Giles is a badass!

 

[Carrrrgh]

I really loved how he killed Ben in this episode. It showed me that he was willing to do whatever it takes to survive. Idk this was probably the moment I really really started to like Giles.

 

[Angelus Domini]

It was kinda stupid, the way he killed Ben though. I mean, WTF? He just covered his mouth an nose? Anyone can counter or break free from such a move. I was actually expecting Giles to choke Ben to death, on the neck, while Ben would struggle.

 

[Lyri]

It was kinda stupid, the way he killed Ben though. I mean, WTF? He just covered his mouth an nose? Anyone can counter or break free from such a move. I was actually expecting Giles to choke Ben to death, on the neck, while Ben would struggle.

Ben was completely wrecked from being battered with the troll hammer. It hurt Glory enough that she was forced into retreat and Ben was back in control of the body. I thin there was a lot of broken bones and internal bleeding. It's not surprising that Giles managed to smother him without much of a fight.

I will admit that Giles killing Ben was a pretty badass moment for the Watcher, but he is still a murderer to me. I can't defend this action in this thread while arguing against more or less the same thing in the Lindsey thread.

Yes, on this occasion, Giles had no choice. Glory, once she regained control of Ben's body, was just gonna come right back and start with the killing again. There was no hope for her to find redemption, because she wasn't human and she wasn't built that way. She doesn't have a soul.

But once Glory was down, taken out, maybe they could have found a spell or something to keep her locked away, but I understand that time was of the essence and Giles did the only thing he could.

I don't like it, but I accept that there was no alternative in this situation.

 

[patriot1123]

It was kinda stupid, the way he killed Ben though. I mean, WTF? He just covered his mouth an nose? Anyone can counter or break free from such a move. I was actually expecting Giles to choke Ben to death, on the neck, while Ben would struggle.

But that's why he asked him, first, if he could move -- to determine his level of strength. When Ben responded that he needed a moment, Giles knew he could kill him easily -- and did.

 

[Angelus Domini]

Ben was completely wrecked from being battered with the troll hammer. It hurt Glory enough that she was forced into retreat and Ben was back in control of the body. I thin there was a lot of broken bones and internal bleeding. It's not surprising that Giles managed to smother him without much of a fight.

I will admit that Giles killing Ben was a pretty badass moment for the Watcher, but he is still a murderer to me. I can't defend this action in this thread while arguing against more or less the same thing in the Lindsey thread.

Yes, on this occasion, Giles had no choice. Glory, once she regained control of Ben's body, was just gonna come right back and start with the killing again. There was no hope for her to find redemption, because she wasn't human and she wasn't built that way. She doesn't have a soul.

But once Glory was down, taken out, maybe they could have found a spell or something to keep her locked away, but I understand that time was of the essence and Giles did the only thing he could.

I don't like it, but I accept that there was no alternative in this situation.

But isn't Glory and Ben separate? Like whatever damage Glory gets doesn't pass over to Ben?

Hmmm... he could have had Spike kill Ben. At least it's a demon without a soul, at that time, Spike was.

But that's why he asked him, first, if he could move -- to determine his level of strength. When Ben responded that he needed a moment, Giles knew he could kill him easily -- and did.

I was actually thinking that Giles might stab him with his glasses when he removed them. Or.. did he remove his glasses? I might have gotten confused from another scene. XD

 

[Lyri]

But isn't Glory and Ben separate? Like whatever damage Glory gets doesn't pass over to Ben?

They share a single body. Glory can manipulate the body so that she has her own separate identity and form, but it's still one body.

Obviously Ben felt every little bone jarring thud of being hit with that wrecking ball. If you watch the scene, he's covered in blood, coughing against the obvious pain in his ribs and not moving very much. It's clear he felt everything Glory was hit with. Whether he has accelerated healing that would have kicked in had he been left alone we'll never know. But Giles asks him if he's okay, or if he can move or something, and he says something like he needs a minute.

 

[Angelus Domini]

Ah. Makes sense.

Darn though, it would've been more believable if Giles choked Ben by the throat. You could still breath through your mouth even if it's locked shut because there are spaces, though small, in between your teeth, which air can pass through. Oh well. lol

 

[Carrrrgh]

I think Giles felt a little guilty having to kill Ben bit he knew it had to be done.

For that reason I don't consider Giles a murderer, there was absolutely no other way to defeat Glory, and even though he had to kill a human, you have to realize Ben was also responsible for a lot of wrong doing on his own when he agreed to help Glory kill Dawn.

Also I feel that here in this scene, Giles is a hero for making sure Glory can never come back through Ben and seek revenge on Buffy. Not only was he protecting the world, he also was doing his job as a watcher and keep his slayer safe by any means. Buffy was also like a daughter to Giles, so what would you do to ensure the safety of someone you loved like your daughter?

 

[Lyri]

I do agree with everything you said, Carrr, but...

Buffy was also like a daughter to Giles, so what would you do to ensure the safety of someone you loved like your daughter?

If I killed someone to protect my daughter, I would still think of myself as a murderer. If my father killed someone to save my life, I'd think he was my hero, but in the back of my mind he would always be a murderer.

I'm not saying that doing something like that is wrong, far from it, but like I said earlier in this thread, I cannot, in good conscience, sit here and defend Giles' actions while condemning Angel's in the other thread. The only difference between Giles and Angel is that Giles KNEW, without question, that Glory would reemerge and commit even more unspeakable acts of evil, whereas all Angel had to go on was the fact that Lindsey MIGHT do something bad in the future. Two different thought processes, but their end decision was still the same - kill the human.

 

[Carrrrgh]

If I killed someone to protect my daughter, I would still think of myself as a murderer. If my father killed someone to save my life, I'd think he was my hero, but in the back of my mind he would always be a murderer.

Yeah I see what you mean I guess I would always think of him as a murderer but in the same sense it's like almost reassuring knowing how far someone would go to protect you.

Almost like a self-defense murder, that's how I can justify his actions, it needed to be done.

That gets me thinking about self defense if someone kills another human out of self defense, are they a murderer also?

I would say yes they are but idk I guess the question of whether the person deserved to die or not doesn't matter, it's still murder, giving them the murderer status.

 

[patriot1123]

I was actually thinking that Giles might stab him with his glasses when he removed them. Or.. did he remove his glasses? I might have gotten confused from another scene. XD

No ... he plucked them out of his shirt pocket and put them on, before killing Ben. It seemed kind of random, actually. 🙂

 

[BuffyElevated]

I felt bad for Giles for having to be the one to kill Ben.... It's not something I ever thought we would see from him, but it's good to know that he's willing to do what it takes, no matter what the cost.

 

[Marisa]

I think it is great that he killed Ben for that fact of he could do it. I don't want to sound mean but if it is needed for the world get it done. Buffy should have done it but like Giles said she couldn't do that.

 

[HalloweenRain]

But once Glory was down, taken out, maybe they could have found a spell or something to keep her locked away

I think I remember something being said about Ben being Glory's ONLY weak link. I'm sure if there was a spell to separate them she would have done it long before The Scoobies even met her. The idea of keeping a god contained with some Willow mojo sounds crazy, especially at her level. Willow could barely perform the spell that teleported Glory, much less one that would keep her locked up. I'm not trying to be argumentative, because I agree with you on your principles, I'm just saying murder was the only solution, even given some time.

 

[nmcil12]

Yeah I see what you mean I guess I would always think of him as a murderer but in the same sense it's like almost reassuring knowing how far someone would go to protect you.

Almost like a self-defense murder, that's how I can justify his actions, it needed to be done.

That gets me thinking about self defense if someone kills another human out of self defense, are they a murderer also?

I would say yes they are but idk I guess the question of whether the person deserved to die or not doesn't matter, it's still murder, giving them the murderer status.

It's instinctual to defend yourself when your life is threatened - and I think it would also be instinct for a parent faced with the eminent danger to their children to defend them as much as they could. You may have killed another human, but it is not the same as a premeditated murder. Killing in self-defense is not the same as a murder.

With Giles things get really complicated - his is a combination of premeditation with intent to kill, but it was also done with the direct intent to defend humanity against the return of Glory. Huge problem of ethics and morality. And Ben was not an innocent victim of Glory either - he had done things in the past to cover up Glory's crimes and actions and he was perfectly willing to have Dawn killed to save himself. Not easy to make a decide on the right or wrong of Giles killing Ben.

 

[Hale Caesar]

Ah. Makes sense.

Darn though, it would've been more believable if Giles choked Ben by the throat. You could still breath through your mouth even if it's locked shut because there are spaces, though small, in between your teeth, which air can pass through. Oh well. lol

That would have been to violent. People love Giles and to see him choke Ben would be very disturbing...if Joss did something so violent he would have to make Giles a Big Bad or something. I'm glad he did it so calmly and with a composure that he has shown since the beginning of the show.

 

[patriot1123]

I know that Giles had to kill Ben, but did anyone else think, "Oh, that's a fine way to repay Ben for treating your spear-impalement wound and saving your life in Spiral?" 😱

 

[Willow My Love]

Honestly, Giles terrified me in that scene. I figured it'd be someone who was crazy, or one of those knight guys to off Ben, but not Giles. And he was so calm about it. If I remember correctly, even cleaned his glasses before he did it. Like it was the natural choice. I didn't see it coming. Then he said, "us," and it all changed. Giles always slightly scared me after that. He was a murderer. Great, he stopped Glory, but he took Ben's life. I don't see that as a fair trade.

 

[patriot1123]

Honestly, Giles terrified me in that scene. I figured it'd be someone who was crazy, or one of those knight guys to off Ben, but not Giles. And he was so calm about it. If I remember correctly, even cleaned his glasses before he did it. Like it was the natural choice. I didn't see it coming. Then he said, "us," and it all changed. Giles always slightly scared me after that. He was a murderer. Great, he stopped Glory, but he took Ben's life. I don't see that as a fair trade.

It didn't bother me when Giles killed Ben, for two reasons.

First, Ben was not a complete innocent. He knew that his body was harboring a malevolent god, and yet he did little or nothing to stop Glory. (Caveat: that previous sentence is from memory - I have not rewatched season 5 yet. I hope I got that right.) Regardless if he had tried to do anything to stop Glory, however, it didn't work. If he had any honor, he should have *asked* Giles to kill him in that scene.

Second, Ben -- along with everyone else -- was going to die anyway. They had run out of options for stopping Glory. They could maybe stop her from doing the ritual, but she'd still be around and in all likelihood would find another way to destroy the world. So, the choice facing Giles was: do all of us die, including Ben, or does just Ben die?