Giles killing Ben

[Btvs fan]

Given that he said something along the lines of always having to clear up messes, this was probably not the first time either that he'd done something like that.

The writing for Ben was all over the place in Season 5. That never got mentioned again either.

Also apparently they were even looking at him being a love interest at one point.

Yes, Ben (played by Charlie Weber) was originally intended to have a slightly larger role, specifically as a serious love interest for Buffy.
However, the writers adjusted his trajectory during the production of Season 5 due to two major creative shifts:
• Buffy's Primary "Love Interest" Became Dawn: The writers decided that the central emotional relationship of Season 5 should not be a romantic one. Instead, they focused entirely on the sisterly bond between Buffy and Dawn. Because Buffy was meant to pour all of her love, energy, and protective instincts into her family—especially while dealing with her mother Joyce's illness—the romantic subplot with Ben was intentionally dropped.
The Rise of Glory's Popularity: Interestingly, the initial plan for the season's Big Bad, Glory (Clare Kramer), was only supposed to span a few episodes. The production team originally wanted to assess Kramer's performance before committing to her long-term. Because she was an instant hit, her role expanded to encompass the entire season. This shift tethered Ben's narrative purpose entirely to Glory's arc as her human prison

 

[Btvs fan]

@NotASlayer Parker/Riley and now Ben ! The writers really loved the floppy haired douche bag as a love interest didn't they !
Its not stated but Im guessing the Spuffy elephant in the room also played a part too in not having Ben as the love interest.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Re: Why is Ben?: I forget where I read it, but Glory isn't an easy thing to maintain. The only reason she can even generate the will needed to manifest is due the hope of going home, with that gone, she gets reasorbed into Ben.

 

[Btvs fan]

Re: Why is Ben?: I forget where I read it, but Glory isn't an easy thing to maintain. The only reason she can even generate the will needed to manifest is due the hope of going home, with that gone, she gets reasorbed into Ben.

It never said that

 

[garfan]

Re: Why is Ben?: I forget where I read it, but Glory isn't an easy thing to maintain. The only reason she can even generate the will needed to manifest is due the hope of going home, with that gone, she gets reasorbed into Ben.

If some writer thought that they never got it anywhere on screen

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

Re: Why is Ben?: I forget where I read it, but Glory isn't an easy thing to maintain. The only reason she can even generate the will needed to manifest is due the hope of going home, with that gone, she gets reabsorbed into Ben.

Not easy to maintain was clear by the fact that she brain-sucked dozens of people (maybe hundreds) to maintain power just for a few months, but nothing is as motivated as an angry person with a vendetta. Losing sides in a war don't always lay down and accept the results. Logic is largely irrelevant. Even if she knew she would fail, that might not stop her from going after those that stopped her or just wreaking mayhem.

Nothing to stop her brain-sucking her way to staying the dominant persona and yes, even trying to get home again -- even if it is 100% impossible. From a logic standpoint, the fact she would have melted multiple dimensions into a dimensional chaos soup probably meant her plan was doomed to fail even in the original timeline. This did NOT stop her from trying. Apart from determination to go home & evilness there's also one other fact: Glory was deeply stupid.
Stupid people often get an idea in their heads and no matter how improbable it is that they can realize it, they doggedly hang onto it.

 

[Btvs fan]

Not easy to maintain was clear by the fact that she brain-sucked dozens of people (maybe hundreds) to maintain power just for a few months, but nothing is as motivated as an angry person with a vendetta. Losing sides in a war don't always lay down and accept the results. Logic is largely irrelevant. Even if she knew she would fail, that might not stop her from going after those that stopped her or just wreaking mayhem.

Nothing to stop her brain-sucking her way to staying the dominant persona and yes, even trying to get home again -- even if it is 100% impossible. From a logic standpoint, the fact she would have melted multiple dimensions into a dimensional chaos soup probably meant her plan was doomed to fail even in the original timeline. This did NOT stop her from trying. Apart from determination to go home & evilness there's also one other fact: Glory was deeply stupid.
Stupid people often get an idea in their heads and no matter how improbable it is that they can realize it, they doggedly hang onto it.

And lets not forget the God worshipping Monks who have God like powers they can literally create a human life apparently. It would've been smarter simply to turn the Key into a grain of sand on a beach somewhere but hey ho. Hell it probably wasn't a good idea for that monk to lead Glory right to the Town the Key was in either (did he fly from Euorpe?) but again oh well.

@garfan talking about dramatic potential dropped, this was another thing. When Buffy's told about Dawn she's appalled "this is my life" that she's basically been given a fake sister. You have so much potential there of Buffy wrestling with her own feelings towards Dawn and how the Monks basically mind raped her and her mother. Instead its all ignored.
Thats the thing, is if your plot makes no sense and it doesn't, then you need to substitute it with dramatic potential to cover for it so we as an audience don't mind. Joss didn't.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Hell he spent the first half of the Gift setting up a potential Buffy v Scooby conflict over Dawn which he never followed through on. Instead we just get Giles talking about what a hero Buffy is to Ben before he murders him. It left me dissatisfied to say the least.

We do get an exchange/argument between Giles and Buffy in The Gift. Buffy doesn't want to hear about any other possibilities and what they might have to do if they can't stop Glory. I loved that scene between them and wish it had been extended.

We do get a reminder and an insight into Giles though and where his head is at just before they head off for battle:

Giles: "...but I've sworn to protect this sorry world, and sometimes that means saying and doing... what other people can't. What they shouldn't have to."

 

[Btvs fan]

We do get an exchange/argument between Giles and Buffy in The Gift. Buffy doesn't want to hear about any other possibilities and what they might have to do if they can't stop Glory. I loved that scene between them and wish it had been extended.

We do get a reminder and an insight into Giles though and where his head is at just before they head off for battle:

Giles: "...but I've sworn to protect this sorry world, and sometimes that means saying and doing... what other people can't. What they shouldn't have to."

It was a great scene as was Xanders "we can kill Ben, hes innocent but not Dawn innocent, oh God" it was great set up for a scenario that Joss had no interest in doing, so it was essentially just filler. We as the audience are just meant to accept its heroic (not understandable or sympathetic but straight out heroic) for Buffy to let the whole world be destroyed because she doesn't want to kill Dawn.

He did a further cop out by magically having Buffys blood be the same as Dawn's (so is Buffy the spare key ?) And by that point, it was publicly well known Buffy was moving to UPN for 2 years and you can't have a Buffy show without Buffy (though you probably could've done) so everyone knew she was coming back

 

[hoponlilmama]

It was a great scene as was Xanders "we can kill Ben, hes innocent but not Dawn innocent, oh God" it was great set up for a scenario that Joss had no interest in doing, so it was essentially just filler. We as the audience are just meant to accept its heroic (not understandable or sympathetic but straight out heroic) for Buffy to let the whole world be destroyed because she doesn't want to kill Dawn.

I guess that line shows the rest of the Scoobies might not be on board with sacrificing Dawn (though I think Anya quietly might agree with Giles!).

He did a further cop out by magically having Buffys blood be the same as Dawn's (so is Buffy the spare key ?)

Haha, you just gave me a laugh with your 'spare key' comment. 😂

Joyce dying, splitting from Riley, Dawn supposedly being made from Buffy was all done to heighten the emotional stakes of the season. When Buffy says to Dawn, "It's Summers blood, it's just like mine" - when was that even confirmed to be 100% fact? Just as you said, it was a cop out.

The monks made a human, and altered everyone's lifetime of memories, violating them. When Giles says, "She's not your sister", he's right.

And by that point, it was publicly well known Buffy was moving to UPN for 2 years and you can't have a Buffy show without Buffy (though you probably could've done) so everyone knew she was coming back

True.

Generally if a series is named after you and you're the protagonist, they're not going to permanently kill the character off. So even BTVS didn't move from WB and continued, audiences would be safe in their knowledge knowing Buffy would somehow return.

 

[NotASlayer]

Re: Why is Ben?: I forget where I read it, but Glory isn't an easy thing to maintain. The only reason she can even generate the will needed to manifest is due the hope of going home, with that gone, she gets reasorbed into Ben.

From what I recall, Glory gained power as the conjunction grew closer and was able to take control of the body more often. It was the conjunction that granted her that power. And the thing about conjunctions is that they rarely happen once.

Yes, there were some major issues with the writing about Ben being Glory - for one thing Glory looked to have been exiled much longer than Ben was alive - and it might be argued that Ben might be dead before the next one. Or he might not; having a god inside him might increase his lifespan. And what about Dawn? She's human now, but instead of dying, might she revert to being an energy lifeform instead?

Basically, if you don't know for sure the being in question can't ever come back and try again, it's generally not a good idea to risk it when being wrong means the end of the world. Or the end of everything.

 

[Btvs fan]

From what I recall, Glory gained power as the conjunction grew closer and was able to take control of the body more often. It was the conjunction that granted her that power. And the thing about conjunctions is that they rarely happen once.

Yes, there were some major issues with the writing about Ben being Glory - for one thing Glory looked to have been exiled much longer than Ben was alive - and it might be argued that Ben might be dead before the next one. Or he might not; having a god inside him might increase his lifespan. And what about Dawn? She's human now, but instead of dying, might she revert to being an energy lifeform instead?

Basically, if you don't know for sure the being in question can't ever come back and try again, it's generally not a good idea to risk it when being wrong means the end of the world. Or the end of everything.

Apparently they were originally separate characters in separate bodies which makes more sense.
Anyway :
Why would the other Hell Gods who beat Glory, bother to do that anyway and not just simply kill her ?
Did they put the forgetting spell on her who sees her change because if so that is stupid ?
How did the Monks come by the Key and what made them think they could use it and why ?
How did Olafs Hammer become the Hammer of the God's that can hurt Glory ?

Final most important question, why am I giving this way more thought than Joss and the writers, given it was obvious they couldn't care less even at the time

 

[NotASlayer]

And by that point, it was publicly well known Buffy was moving to UPN for 2 years and you can't have a Buffy show without Buffy (though you probably could've done) so everyone knew she was coming back

I'm curious as to the exact timeline for this. It's obvious that S6, going by the fact it's an incoherent mess, didn't have adequate time for planning, so it was clearly not renewed early, and I have read that when they filmed The Gift, it hadn't been renewed. If that's true, then it makes a lot more sense because Buffy wasn't coming back.

Apparently they were originally separate characters in separate bodies which makes more sense.

Yes, like Dawn's earlier behaviour is written for a younger character,

Why would the other Hell Gods who beat Glory, bother to do that anyway and not just simply kill her ?
Did they put the forgetting spell on her who sees her change because if so that is stupid ?
How did the Monks come by the Key and what made them think they could use it and why ?
How did Olafs Hammer become the Hammer of the God's that can hurt Glory ?

These are all things that needed more backstory and, frankly, thinking about by the writers.

How did Olafs Hammer become the Hammer of the God's that can hurt Glory ?

According to @NoShip New Viewers and Season 5 this was because the writers forgot to include that little detail in the episode.

Final most important question, why am I giving this way more thought than Joss and the writers, given it was obvious they couldn't care less even at the time

Because this is what fans do. 😀