Giles Leaving: Wish you could stay? Then stay!

Kelsey

Scooby
Joined
Dec 26, 2008
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Okay, aside from the fact that Wish I Could Stay is a beautiful song, was anyone else just angry at Giles for leaving?

I tend to fume over this, so I apologize if this turns into a rant. But I cannot believe he thought it was better for him to abandon Buffy when she was so depressed and lost. I get the reasons behind it, and in different circumstances I may have been more understanding. But her mother had just died, she'd been ripped out of heaven and she was clearly in a very dark place. And he really thinks, "Gee, Buffy's not taking enough responsibility onto her shoulders. I should just give her more to worry about and add some more emotional upheaval into her already chaotic life." Of course, an Englishman would never say "Gee." But still!

And besides, she's spent so much of her life fighting off demons and saving the world, and mostly she does it thanklessly. She can't have a steady job because of it, she can't even go to college, so how does he expect her to support herself? And what's more, doesn't she earn the right to be taken care of? By taking care of all of her friends and risking her life every single day, don't you think she's earned the right for someone to help her out? Responsibility is often measured on whether or not one can support him- or herself, but in Buffy's case it shouldn't be. Buffy was prepared to die for the world at 16 years old. She shouldn't have to prove herself anymore than that.

And on top of that, it's not just herself she has to worry about. She's never been anything close to a mother, and now she's the primary caregiver for Dawn. She can't make enough money to support herself, let alone Dawn, and none of her friends seem to think they should help. Giles is the worst of them in my opinion, because he has always been the paternal figure for Buffy. And now he abandons her to "grow up," when all she really needs is love and support from him.

I don't know if the actor had reasons for leaving, but Giles' reasons were pretty terrible, in my opinion. Thoughts?
 
I didn't like him leaving. I, too, thought his reasons were pretty lousy. Especially at that point in her life.
 
I know it's kind of a cop out, but since Anthony Stewart Head was leaving the show, I pretty much overlook this. It wouldn't have been done otherwise.
 
Well,yeah,anthony stewart head did have reasons to leave he wanted to spend more time with his family in england. But as far as giles leaving ive always had mixed feelings. I disagree that he shouldnt of left. Eh,my heart bleeds for buffy cause buffy does have a huge weight on her shoulders that i know i couldnt take,But frankly...while that weight on her shoulders is unfair,She still has it. And shes not just responsible for buffy,Shes responsible for dawn,her friends and humanity at large. She,Like angel,has been chosen to be the champion of humanity. So he had to leave,buffy when she comes back is pretty much dead inside,metaphorically and almost literally,theres really not much he can do. When someones like that nobody can really help them,All they can do is help themselves. I was in a relationship with a girl like that,where she just got dead inside,and honestly,i dealt with it for two years,constantly got broken up with and screwed with. My heart bled for her,and she didnt deserve what had happened in her life. Yet i didnt deserve to get treated like i didnt matter and basically abused,humilated,and screwed over constantly again and again. And thats the thing,At the end of the day,Buffy doesnt deserve what has happened in her life,and she has all the reason in the world to be upset,But honestly the way she treats people in that season they dont deserve. Honestly,i know its a cliche and frankly lame,But if you love someone all you can do sometimes is let them free. but with that said,i missed giles. I didnt mind it in season 6 but man,i really dont like the idea of removing giles from the show,i think the show lost some of its magic without his constant presense. He fufills an almost for lack of a better term innocent role on the show,hes security. I kinda always took comfort that no matter what happened in their lives that giles would be well,the same. Always there. So yeah from that standpoint it bugged me.
 
W
Wesley
I've been critically hit by a wall of text, I take 10 mental damage. Good points but paragraphs sir!
I get what you're saying, Pryce, and I agree with you. I know Giles couldn't have made Buffy better, because I agree that Buffy had to do that herself. I wouldn't say Buffy was particularly abusing Giles, but I think your definition does apply to how Buffy treated certain platinum-blonde vamps, as well as her friends. But Giles leaving only put more responsibility on her shoulders, and only made her feel more overwhelmed and isolated. Perhaps the idea of letting Buffy go and letting her figure out her problems works in theory, but it practice it only made her more withdrawn.

It wasn't Giles' job to pull Buffy out of her misery. Nor was it Spike's job, Xander's job, Willow's job, Dawn's job or anyone else's. Buffy needed to do that. But leaving Buffy alone with the responsibility of Dawn, of supporting herself, of paying the bills and holding the Scooby gang together just didn't help.

And I figured Anthony Head has some reason for leaving, but I still find it an interesting topic to discuss. =)
 
To be fair,honestly im probably over anaylzing. I love season six the most out of the post high school years,which is probably a criminal offense on here as is most parts of the buffy community but theres some stuff from that season that doesnt simply jump the shark it literally does flips over it. And I get where you're coming from but my thing is I think it did help,I think buffy ironically needed more pressure,I think buffy needed to fully feel responsibility again to be well...buffy. Giles stepping in and always being there left her kind of in the state of mind that its all okay to act this way. If anything,Id say him leaving dawn and the scoobys with buffy is more dangerous because they all used to have the security of buffy to fall back on,now they dont...and now they dont even have the security of giles. But also,while giles is a father figure,hes also a watcher at heart and buffys his champion. So ultimately hes not simply looking out for her,hes trying to look out for the world. I think at a point like that maybe giles choice was simply so black and white in either stay and keep buffy happy,and watch her self destruction and possibly as a result literally the worlds or leave her and hope for the best. Neither are particularly great,he tried to pick the lesser of two evils. And honestly,while giles is strong,i think if he had stayed and supported her through everything he would of lapsed back into that role and nothing would of ended up getting done. Just because giles cares more about buffy than probably anybody else in the buffy universe with the exception of a certain "poof who buys nancy boy hair gel" and a platinium blonde vampire..maybe even more. Buffy keeps on kinda running from the obvious while hes there in season six,yes his leaving does dump more problems on her,but ultimately it helps her. Confronting herself ends up making her well buffy again. And there is candy and parades and such. but with that said,I couldnt of brought myself to do that. I probably would of at least left money for her. but i dont know if thats the right thing to do. Just the compassionate thing.
 
I
InsaneMystic
don't worry, S6 is BY FAR my fave of the post-HS years too. ;)
Whoa... I actually really like your argument. Kudos, friend. You have succeeded in calming my anger a bit. =)
 
I realize they had to get rid of the character somehow due to the actor's leaving, but I despise the way they did it.

Giles used to be my all-time favorite and at first during this season I was just depressed he was gone. It slowly turned to annoyance. It's now full-on hate. Probably because I was diagnosed with depression about a year ago and so it's a little more of a personal matter to me now.

Yes, she may ultimately end up okay and of course he couldn't have "fixed" her by staying. But, he sure did contribute to putting her through hell. You never just dump a person with depression in the deep end and say "sink or swim", which is definitely what he did. He expected her to get over multiple traumatic events and a mental illness completely on her own and quickly.

He absolutely shouldn't have taken on all her responsibilities or babied her. But, she might have been able to deal a little better and a little sooner if she'd had more support. If her one parental figure left hadn't abandoned her in a desperate time.

Wow... that rant had been building up for a long time. 😀
 
But, she might have been able to deal a little better and a little sooner if she'd had more support. If her one parental figure left hadn't abandoned her in a desperate time.

I agree, and I think that her friends should have supported her as well. They dragged her back from heaven, but I can't honestly remember a time when they actively tried to make up for their actions. Granted, I haven't watched Season 6 in awhile and so much of it was focused on Spike and Buffy's steamy affair that maybe I'm overlooking the details. But they never really seemed to offer their support. Their love, sure, but they seemed so tied up in their own deals that Buffy wasn't at the forefront of their minds. I would think, considering what their selfishness put her through, that they'd want to help more.
 
I realize they had to get rid of the character somehow due to the actor's leaving, but I despise the way they did it.

Giles used to be my all-time favorite and at first during this season I was just depressed he was gone. It slowly turned to annoyance. It's now full-on hate. Probably because I was diagnosed with depression about a year ago and so it's a little more of a personal matter to me now.

Yes, she may ultimately end up okay and of course he couldn't have "fixed" her by staying. But, he sure did contribute to putting her through hell. You never just dump a person with depression in the deep end and say "sink or swim", which is definitely what he did. He expected her to get over multiple traumatic events and a mental illness completely on her own and quickly.

He absolutely shouldn't have taken on all her responsibilities or babied her. But, she might have been able to deal a little better and a little sooner if she'd had more support. If her one parental figure left hadn't abandoned her in a desperate time.

Wow... that rant had been building up for a long time. 😀

Ok,First off,Im probably going to get cyber dropkicked for what im about to say but. Yeah,I realise its a terrible thing to do. but,another thing. Buffy isnt simply any human being and giles isnt simply her father figure. hes her watcher. Buffys a champion,i know shes going through hell,but think about what she says in season 7. As sad as it is for me to say,when it comes down to it,being a slayer is about the mission. Shes there to save the world. and shes failing at it. She doesnt really have a choice but get better in a quick amount of time. You've got a nerd whos hellbent on making people pay for what happened to him in high school,an increasingly dangerous wiccan friend and the always looming threat of something coming out of nowhere. She doesnt simply need to grow up in that season,she HAS to. humanity hangs in the balance,not just her friends. And humanity is bigger than buffy. And plus,buffy is self destructive in that season and also its a problem she faces always. think about what spike says"slayers have a death wish" hell why else would they date vamps? And when youre self destructive,sometimes the only thing you can do is let them hit rock bottom,then they want to save themselves. and it could of ended rather badly,as you said,its not wise to do that to depressives but honestly..theres little choice. Both choices are horrible and frankly,the other one probably would of ended worse. Please dont cyber dropkick me for this message.
 
A
Amanda108
No cyber dropkicking :-D I like that you explain your opinion so in-depth.
I guess they had to do it. But if it were RL and there was no actor wanting to leave, I'd say he could have drawn better boundaries with Buffy without abandoning her. That was lame. I wish he'd stayed away after he came back to help with Willow at the end of the season. I really came to hate him in season 7.
 
K
Kelsey
Yeah, S7 Giles is not my favorite Giles.
I was so angry at him. Buffy had lost too much, he really should stay. He was like a father to her, and just like every father he did some bad choices, and just like every daughter, she did to, but in the end of the day all would be allright. I really don't know why Joss decided to took away from her father figure.
 
Rupert Giles WAS NOT Buffy's father. He was not obliged to remain in Sunnydale and act as her guardian. Buffy was 20 years old at the time. She was Dawn's guardian, not Giles. It was time for her to grow up, whether any of us liked it or not.
 
Rupert Giles WAS NOT Buffy's father. He was not obliged to remain in Sunnydale and act as her guardian. Buffy was 20 years old at the time. She was Dawn's guardian, not Giles. It was time for her to grow up, whether any of us liked it or not.

You are not the most positive person here, are you? He was her father, he was the only father figure she had in the show, and I don't mean a person who made her, I mean a person who was there for her, guiding her and protecting her, standing up for her, couldn't lie to her even if it was his job, like in Helpless, person who made bad choices, and person on who her bad choices made a mark. A person who had forgiven her all her mistakes and was there even when he didn't had to. And that's what makes a father. Hank Summers was her real father but when was he when she had to kill love of her life, sacrafice herself to save the world - twice, or when one of the most important persons in her life died, her mother? He was there when she needed shoes. Where was he when she needed someone to belive her that she is the slayer? He sent her to the mental institution. Giles was her father, her watcher, her best friend. And yeah, she needed all that. She was 20, so what? Like person ever stop needing his/her parents. So after someone finish High School he/she doesn't need their parents anymore? She needed him, she needed someone, and she probably wanted him to stay, just she was to screwed up to say something, and he was to sensitive to ask. He left. That was his mistake. He didn't only left her, he left all of them. He wasn't her real father, but he was more father to her then Hank was.
 
K
Kelsey
[No message]
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Amanda108
Thank you so much for saying all this.
G
GrrArghx
[No message]
We always seem to return to this whole question of if Giles was Buffy's father figure when we discuss Giles. It's beyond me how anyone could not believe that Giles was Buffy's father figure. But hey, to each their own, I guess.
 
A
Amanda108
[No message]
Rupert Giles WAS NOT Buffy's father. He was not obliged to remain in Sunnydale and act as her guardian. Buffy was 20 years old at the time. She was Dawn's guardian, not Giles. It was time for her to grow up, whether any of us liked it or not.

Of course he had no legal obligation to stay. But it's certainly not a complete absurdity to suggest he had some sort of moral obligation not to bail on her in a time of great need.
 
Just wanted to add something I forgot to say in my original post:
“growing up” does not equal suddenly not needing any support, any help. She was going through a personal crisis. Most so-called-adults would have completely crumbled after some of the stuff she’s had to face.


Buffy isnt simply any human being and giles isnt simply her father figure. hes her watcher. Buffys a champion,i know shes going through hell,but think about what she says in season 7. As sad as it is for me to say,when it comes down to it,being a slayer is about the mission. Shes there to save the world. and shes failing at it.

I definitely agree that she isn’t a normal human and, unfortunately, doesn’t have the luxury of being treated like one. However, in this case, I feel like slaying was the one thing she was actually handling rather well. Technically, she was never supposed to have to deal with things like family, friends, or a job. Now, granted, she chose to keep those things. I just don’t think that Giles can use her slayer-status as a reason for her needing to be on her own in this case.
 
Personally I think that he could have give her a little bit more time perhaps, but I do think that I can understand the reasoning behind his desicion to leave.
I get the feeling that he choosed to do what was harder for him, to leave. Staying and keep stepping in and fix things for Buffy would probably be easier but not necessary the best thing.
But yeah, he really didn't give her much time. I also think Giles himself says he regrets leaving.

At times I also think that he should have stayed, if not for Buffy so for the others.
I often think that Willow is the one that really needed him there, always wonder if he could have helped her in any way.
Guess that is a subject for another thread though. 🙂

/SK
 
Just wanted to add something I forgot to say in my original post:
"growing up" does not equal suddenly not needing any support, any help. She was going through a personal crisis. Most so-called-adults would have completely crumbled after some of the stuff she's had to face.




I definitely agree that she isn't a normal human and, unfortunately, doesn't have the luxury of being treated like one. However, in this case, I feel like slaying was the one thing she was actually handling rather well. Technically, she was never supposed to have to deal with things like family, friends, or a job. Now, granted, she chose to keep those things. I just don't think that Giles can use her slayer-status as a reason for her needing to be on her own in this case.

I was content in making this post simply" but I do think giles can use that defense" then do a celebratory I win dance and start a parade in my honor. Become a self proclaimed king,and enforce abitrary rules like banning pidgeons. but i realise i cant do this. Now onto what I was going to say.
I guess instead of going for elaborate wording I can sum it up in a line from once more than feeling"Am I leaving dawn in danger/Is my slayer too far gone to care?" And the answer is pretty much god yes. She is. Shes too far gone to care about anything,her friends,spike,anything. So,ergo,anything means the world. Ergo. Humanity is doing an alyson hannigan crying face cause well,We're in serious trouble. she may be slaying vampires,but shes"going through the motions"(God i feel so camp for typing that),she doesnt really care. And that not caring could result in the entire world going big boom. Goodbye Picadilly, farewell, leicester Bloody Square. and yes,growing up doesnt simply equal that,no. But,in this case she didnt need to simply grow up,she needed to stop self destructing. Sometimes the only way to do that is to let someone hit rock bottom. Ive seen it happen many a times. Its not ALWAYS the best thing. and his choice isnt neccessarly compassionate and once again i highly doubt i would do it,But...hes looking out for the greater good you gotta remember. not just buffy. I think if he had stayed also,nothing would of gotten resolved,Lets think about it this way,at the end of the day while giles does morally questionable things most often than not he'll side with buffy even if it results in her death,or otherwise. He,like any father figure,has a sometimes weak will to his child. He wants them to be happy. Happy doesnt always equal happy in the long term,sometimes in the short. So giles probably would of fallen in the same role just due to how much he cares about her. I think he felt he had to,to save buffys life,to save the world.
 
K
Kelsey
LOL at "Humanity is doing an Alyson Hannigan crying face" and "Farewell, Leicester bloody Square." Nice post!
I
InsaneMystic
I bow to the sheer geek power of your wording. LOL!
Alright, after reading all these arguments, I'm finding myself completely torn. On one hand, I look at Buffy and my heart just goes out to her. She's spent her entire life fighting, having to be the strongest person around, never having any sort of real support system since her mother didn't really understand, and Giles had to be more of a teacher than a father. All this time, she's been going through life doing the best she can, and all the while she has to go it alone. The only person she's ever loved, she had to kill, and even though he's back, she can't be with him. So finally we reach the end of S5, and she's found a way out. It's noble, and she's taking care of her sister in the process, and even though she's technically killing herself, she's reached her final act of protecting the world...and then she's free. She's in heaven. Literally. Free from all the constraints of her old life, free from being the one who always has to sacrifice everything and save everyone else.

Until she's ripped out and has to come back. Because of her friends who are so selfish they can't think of any place she might be other than in hell and somehow can't find a way to move on and just let Buffy rest in peace.

(I realize that if they had, there wouldn't be a show, but whatever.)

Actually, now that I've written it all out, I don't think Giles should have just left. Maybe set more boundaries, but even if he did fall back into his old ways of taking care of her, I think at this point, Buffy deserved to be taken care of. Her whole live has been her worrying about saving everyone else, and then she was just abandoned by the only person that took a little bit away from the burden that she'd been forced to carry. She had enough to worry about without losing the only real 'father' she had, since her real one completely abandoned her years before that. There were ways he could have forced her to 'grow up' without completely abandoning her. After all, teaching her is his job. Just teach her how to be a grown-up.

Wow that was long. Sorry XD
 
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Amanda108
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