Given The Choice Would Liam Have Really Wanted His Soul?

[white avenger]

Maybe that should be worded, "Does LIAM really want his soul," since Angel and Angelus are basically just two different pseudonyms used to separate the different extremes in his personality. Anyhow, my point is, would the real person who was the basis for the character really care one way or the other whether he had a soul or not?

As far as I can see, Liam wouldn't have cared one way or the other, as long as he was able to continue his existence as a wastrel and a drunkard without any responsibilities whatsoever. In fact, the prospect of immortality might have been the only thing that he would have considered in the bargain, since, with the exception of his younger sister apparently, he didn't care about anyone or anything beyond the next drink and the next woman. Granted, we saw very little of Liam in either series, but that's the impression that what little we were shown gave me.

 

[Kean]

Liam? I think he would have been indifferent to his soul. I don'ty think he cared one way or another. I don't think a soul and what it meant carried much weight for Liam. It really doesn't seem like something he would concern himself with.

Angel on the other hand? yeah...he cared.Alot.

WA, do you want both Angel and Liam included in this or will I change the title of the thread?

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Maybe that should be worded, "Does LIAM really want his soul," since Angel and Angelus are basically just two different pseudonyms used to separate the different extremes in his personality. Anyhow, my point is, would the real person who was the basis for the character really care one way or the other whether he had a soul or not?

As far as I can see, Liam wouldn't have cared one way or the other, as long as he was able to continue his existence as a wastrel and a drunkard without any responsibilities whatsoever. In fact, the prospect of immortality might have been the only thing that he would have considered in the bargain, since, with the exception of his younger sister apparently, he didn't care about anyone or anything beyond the next drink and the next woman. Granted, we saw very little of Liam in either series, but that's the impression that what little we were shown gave me.

Did Liam, before he was turned, want his soul?
I don't think he cared either way. I would imagine it was a low priority on his list of requirements, he just wanted to have fun.

Now does Angel want his soul?
I think its fair to say that Liam to Angelus is different.
While the vampire does release certain inhabitions, I wouldn't say that Liam was as sadistic as Angelus.
The Vampire is a demon without a soul. Yes a man is who he is because of the sum of his memories however, the lack of soul in this case does also show that the person is different.

So by that Liam and Angelus are different.
If Liam and Angelus are different, then that means Angel is different to them all, because he is the sum of two different beings.

Now, back to the question, does Angel want his soul - I think season 5 proves he does BUT he is willing to sacrifice it for the greater good.

 

[Perny]

I think it's important to think like this: Liam, Angel, and Angelus are three different persons.

Personally I don't think Liam would have gived a damn wether he had a soul or not. I mean, he willingly let Darla "show him the world."

Angelus doesn't want his soul. He's evil. Duh. (And they have chainsaws now!)

Angel wants soul. He wants to become human again. Being Angelus made him do stupid things, and when he got his soul he realized that. He's not Liam anymore, Liam is dead, but he's Angel. And Angel lives with the knowledge of what Liam took for granted, and what Angelus did. If Angel turned human, he'd live for the first time ever. And he wants that....Because he can't.

Do I make any sense at all?

 

[white avenger]

Regarding the title of this thread, I posted it very hurredly just before leaving home, and, ogf course, once I got in the car, realized that it was probably misleading. The question, and the thread title, should have both referred to Liam, human, mortal, pre-vampire. Certainly Angel cared, and it probably never even occurred to Angelus before he had that Gypsy Princess snack.

Sorry for any confusion.

 

[clemsgirlfriend]

Angel wants soul. He wants to become human again

I find the contrast in the angel series interesting - in early season 1 (I will remember you), he is actually turned human again, and he begs the powers that be to turn time backward so that he can go back to being a vampire, because he says he can't fight evil without the vampire strength that he had, so he is no good to the ptb's anymore as a human. And that in spite of the other implication of being able to be with Buffy again once he was human.

Then by the end of season 1, they show him getting all excited, and carrying that throughout the rest of all 5 seasons, at the prospect that he could be made human again as a reward for doing enough good stuff.

Anyone want to offer their wisdom and interpretation of that contrast?

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

I find the contrast in the angel series interesting - in early season 1 (I will remember you), he is actually turned human again, and he begs the powers that be to turn time backward so that he can go back to being a vampire, because he says he can't fight evil without the vampire strength that he had, so he is no good to the ptb's anymore as a human. And that in spite of the other implication of being able to be with Buffy again once he was human.

Then by the end of season 1, they show him getting all excited, and carrying that throughout the rest of all 5 seasons, at the prospect that he could be made human again as a reward for doing enough good stuff.

Anyone want to offer their wisdom and interpretation of that contrast?

Yes, Angel becoming human again in 'I Will Remember You' isn't a prize or his redemption, its something that takes him out of the fight now (which is my issue - plenty of guys without strength were fighting the good fight and Angel had centuries of fighting skill to fall back on but thats another issue) BUT the Shanshu is when the fighting is done, its his redemption for what has happened and thats after THE Apocalypse so I really don't see an issue here.

Sleeping with Buffy and having a life with her isn't what his redemption is about, thats something different.

 

[white avenger]

I find the contrast in the angel series interesting - in early season 1 (I will remember you), he is actually turned human again, and he begs the powers that be to turn time backward so that he can go back to being a vampire, because he says he can't fight evil without the vampire strength that he had, so he is no good to the ptb's anymore as a human. And that in spite of the other implication of being able to be with Buffy again once he was human.

Then by the end of season 1, they show him getting all excited, and carrying that throughout the rest of all 5 seasons, at the prospect that he could be made human again as a reward for doing enough good stuff.

Anyone want to offer their wisdom and interpretation of that contrast?

In defense of Angel, and I really can't believe that I just said that. the reason that he wanted to become a vampire again in "I Will Remember You," at least what he claimed to be the reason, was that he was afraid Buffy would die trying to protect him, or that HE wouldn't be able to protect HER.

I have several issues with this particular episode, but that lame a**ed excuse is probably the largest one. As EB pointed out, there were several quite effective demon fighters on both his show and Buffy's who were completely human, and if they could do it, there was not a single reason that he couldn't do exactly the same thing. In fact, he does exactly that very thing in "After The Fall." So what other reason could Ol' Broody have for wanting to remain undead and super powered?

Well, in LA, vampire Angel was the top dog, the alpha male, the most powerful demon fighter around. Human Angel would be just another guy, fighting things far more powerful than himself, kinda like Giles, Xander, Wes, and Gunn. Plus, there was that whole immortality thing. I'm just cynical enough to believe that, no matter how much he loved Buffy, the prospect of growing old, after 400 years of immortality, just didn't thrill him that much. It's not like the same issue with either Highlander Macleod. Angel had never loved someone only to watch them grow old, wither, and die. He had never loved anyone before Buffy, by his own admission.

As for his excitement about the Shanshu Prophecy at the end of that same season, well, he had struck a bargain with the Powers once before to restore his powers. I'm quite sure that he had little doubt that he could do the exact same thing again if it ever came down to it.

 

[DrusillaRox]

Yeah. I agree

Liam didn't give a rats ass
Angelus was pure evil and despised his "cage" (angel's soul)
Angel wanted his soul. He wanted to redeem himself

 

[Kana]

To be honest early on Liam may have cared but because of the conflict he felt of wanting to please his father and living up to his expectations of piety and finding flaw with his overly puritan and austere demeanour, it's understandable he'd want it gone.

As for the issues regarding I Will Remember You, I agree that he was most freaked out by Buffy's near death. Also, I'd contend that although he's able to fight without his vamp powers he wouldn't be as effective to the cause.

 

[Big Damn Hero]

I don't think he cared either way about his soul, and if he even KNEW about it, the prospect of immortality and getting to shag Darla for eternity would probably have FAR outweighed it.

 

[clemsgirlfriend]

Okay, i think the Buffy/redemption explanations are good explanations for the different behavior in iwry compared to the rest of the series. Thanks.

 

[Kean]

In defense of Angel, and I really can't believe that I just said that.

HA!

Personally I think his reasons run a little deeper than what you said WA.

When IWRY happened Angel was only beginning the "Good Fight" and seeking redemption. He didn't know what he was capable of as a vampire never mind human. He didn't equate his new found humanity with redemption. It was a fluke and he knew that.

As had been revealed 5 episodes earlier what Angel wanted was forgiveness. He wanted to atone for what he had done. Given the destruction a he caused over a hundred years...a human life span wasn't going to be enough to make up for that. That was all banking on him not getting killed in battle.

As a human Angel at his best was going to be no more than Gunn. Have a smallish gang taking out vamps here and there. Angel was looking to take out the big dogs and cause some real damage. No regular human is going to stop an apocolypse and they were the kinds of dangers he was going to be faced with.

Plus, and I really don't think you can under estimate this...he had been told Buffy would die. I don't know about you folks but If I was told the person I love more than anything was going to do and there was something I could do to stop it. There is NOTHING that is stopping me doing that.

In the long run, I still don't know if that was the right decision? Him and Buffy have a blissful year and half and she dies (and would stay dead...no way he would let Willow bring her back)...or what we have now, the two champions still fighting the good fight?

Spoiler

I think what makes the difference between season 1 and ATF, in regards fighting human is that Angel had no other choice in Hell.

 

[white avenger]

HA!

As a human Angel at his best was going to be no more than Gunn. Have a smallish gang taking out vamps here and there. Angel was looking to take out the big dogs and cause some real damage. No regular human is going to stop an apocolypse and they were the kinds of dangers he was going to be faced with.

At least we agree that he didn't want to be just another demon fighter. But as for stopping apocalypses, that was Buffy's job. Angel was centered on "helping the hopeless" (though I prefer Harmony's version, "We hope you're helpless," more.) And don't I seem to recall a certain rather overweight carpenter stopping an apocalypse at one point? Of course, he used that broken yellow crayon, so I guess that made all the difference.

But to get back to Liam and that pesky ol' soul, I agree with Green Crabbit. Immortality and a beautiful woman to spend it with. That would certainly be the deciding factor for someone like him, at least from what little we actually know about him.

(And I still believe that there was as much, if not more, ego involved i Angel rejecting his humanity as there ever was the desire for redemption)

 

[Kean]

At least we agree that he didn't want to be just another demon fighter. But as for stopping apocalypses, that was Buffy's job. Angel was centered on "helping the hopeless" (though I prefer Harmony's version, "We hope you're helpless," more.) And don't I seem to recall a certain rather overweight carpenter stopping an apocalypse at one point? Of course, he used that broken yellow crayon, so I guess that made all the difference.

But to get back to Liam and that pesky ol' soul, I agree with Green Crabbit. Immortality and a beautiful woman to spend it with. That would certainly be the deciding factor for someone like him, at least from what little we actually know about him.

(And I still believe that there was as much, if not more, ego involved i Angel rejecting his humanity as there ever was the desire for redemption)

I'll never agree with the ego comment. Angel was vain but he wasn't so vain that he would give up humanity for it. That's ridiulous to me.


But back to Liam. Considering the time period I'm assuming his parents at least were religious. He would have been told from a very early age that is his scoundrel ways would have led him to damnation (which they did lol). I think Liam would have view his soul as something holding him back...something he could afford to lose. In fact he probably would have encouraged everyone to lose their souls and just enjoy themselves.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Do you know what I haven seen from you guys in a while that I miss?

"Bangel"
"Spuffy"
"Bangel"
"Spuffy"
"Bangel"
"Spuffy"
"Bangel"
"Spuffy"
"Bangel"
"Spuffy"

This thread could totally head that way!

 

[white avenger]

I think Liam would have view his soul as something holding him back...something he could afford to lose.

If he ever thought of it at all. Unfortunately, all that we have as hard facts about Liam are the few rather brief flashbacks from the two series, so it's hard to do much more than guess at what the whole man was really like. To be honest, though, at the moment of his turning, mortal Liam had no real idea just what was happening to him. A beautiful woman made some rather obscure promises to a very drunk man. No mention of souls, death, or immortality.Like Spike much later, he was only following his blood, and at that particular moment, it wasn't flowing in the direction of his brain.

 

[Kean]

Do you know what I haven seen from you guys in a while that I miss?



This thread could totally head that way!

Do you want it to go that way?

I'm sure we could organise a thread to faciliate that.

 

[white avenger]

If you're talking about me and Miss K dancing, we'll have to put it off for about 3 hours. I'm meeting Lady Avenger for lunch. After that, my dance card is open.