Glory knew???

[Angelic Slayer]

Just got a thought with the whole key thing in season 5. It was said that originally, no one had ANY idea what this key was. For all they knew it could have been a book or a person or any random object, which was part of the reason why it was so hard for anyone to find it or even figure out what it was.

BUT, the ritual itself seemed to be almost common knowlege, Glory knew what to do, her minions knew what to do, the gang eventually figured it out, and obviously (the lizard guy who's name I can't remember- who actually did the deed in the end) knew that the ritual involved going up high and bleeding the key, to open the gateway between the dimentions to take Glory home. In fact, they must have known this ritual otherwise why would Glory waste time having insane people make a tower? Or like I said how could knowlege possibly get around so fast that suddenly all these people know what to do?

So if you work under that assumption, that would mean that the key would have to bleed. So WHY did everyone waste their time looking for a key in things that couldn't bleed? Wouldn't the ritual itself have automatically narrowed it down to a living animal of some sort? Maybe I'm missing something but it seems kind of off to me. I know that everything was a big mystery in a good part of this season, but I'm kind of left wondering how could they NOT know? ???

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Was it not that the Keys energies (SP?) had to be poured into a specific place at a specific time? That is why Glory had them build the tower, she knew the specific place, and she was working to a schedule because she knew when to use it. But the thing with the key was that it's energy had to be in that place at that time, and because it was now human the way to access those energies was through blood, but if it was something else the energy would have to be gotten from the thing into the place by a different way, Like, and I am only theorising here, if it was a book, maybe reading the book at that place at that time would have been the same thing as the human blood?

 

[The Arcane]

I think that it's fairly commomly acknowledged that this was a bit of an oversight on behalf of the writers. Most people have accepted that either Glory must have been incredibly dumb not to figure out from the details of the ritual that the key had to be some form of lifeform or it was just a little glitch that the writers didn't pick up on at the time.

One way of looking at it is that the ritual we saw may have only been that way specifically because the Key was in human form. Had it been a bicycle pump then the ritual might have had another method of opening the portal but because Dawn was human we just got to see the blood specific part.

 

[Mesektet Ra]

I don't look at it that way.

The Key could've been anything - so, therefore, the best way to harness the energy from the object would've been used. Whether it be bicycle pump, a book or a friggin' rock.

But, see, I view the Key itself this way - the Key was living energy, so it had to be funneled into a living form. And since the Key was so powerful, it had to be made into the most powerful living being - a human. Granted, a fourteen-year-old girl isn't the most powerful human on the planet, but I think you get my point.

What I'm saying is that a human being was the only form suitable enough to house the Key. I really don't think the Key could've been anything else, but I guess the show says otherwise. Shrug.

 

[The Arcane]

I don't look at it that way.

The Key could've been anything - so, therefore, the best way to harness the energy from the object would've been used. Whether it be bicycle pump, a book or a friggin' rock.

Which kinda is exactly what i said in my last paragraph. The ritual could be adapted to suit whatever form the energy was in but we only saw the one relating to it being a living being.

But, see, I view the Key itself this way - the Key was living energy, so it had to be funneled into a living form. And since the Key was so powerful, it had to be made into the most powerful living being - a human. Granted, a fourteen-year-old girl isn't the most powerful human on the planet, but I think you get my point.

What I'm saying is that a human being was the only form suitable enough to house the Key. I really don't think the Key could've been anything else, but I guess the show says otherwise. Shrug.

You are probably correct but i don't recall the Key being described as "living" energy. Which episode was that in?

Regardless of that though, prior to being made into Dawn, the Key was not a sentient being and therefore could be given any form that the monks chose for it. It's relative power had little relevance to it's given form as the power only mattered when it was being channeled for use, as shown by the fact that Dawn herself could not access it and there had to be a ritual to bring it into use.

Furthermore, the point was to hide the power from Glory and so it made sense to create a form for it that was the very last thing that anyone would expect. Ultimately the monks chose the form a a young girl, specifically a sister for Buffy, only because they knew that it would be the one thing that the Slayer would protect with her life. Had it been anything else, say a rock for example, Buffy would have had much less passion about keeping it safe.

Therefore, that is the reason that they chose a human form. Out of logic more than need.

 

[Allycat]

But, see, I view the Key itself this way - the Key was living energy, so it had to be funneled into a living form.

I'm sorry, but though this might seem "logical"... we kinda need some prove for this. Why could living enery (whatever that term may imply) not find a home in a inanimate object?

And since the Key was so powerful, it had to be made into the most powerful living being - a human. Granted, a fourteen-year-old girl isn't the most powerful human on the planet, but I think you get my point.

In the Buffyverse, humans are hardly the most powerful living beings. Many demons are much stronger. Besides, the Monks made a point about that they purposely chose to do it the way they did. It wasn't out of necessity, but rather it was what they thought wisest.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

To me, i always believed the Key was Dawn's Blood, NOT Dawn. The monks created 'The Shell' of Dawn as a means to hold the energy, power, within, but also giving it form for Buffy to care ofr, to protect with her life.
It wasn't the Key that created the false memories, it was the monks. They knew that whatever was to hold the energy needed to be protected.
Now, as far as the 'container' itself, well, again i have my own thoughts.
Whatever the key had been turned into, would only have been a shell. The Key energy would have been stored inside, something like BEG's comment about if its a book, reading the words, however, i believe it a little more ritualistic in the 'cutting' of Dawn. What i believe, Glory and her minions, would have been aware that whatever was the depository for the energy, would need to be 'cracked' open, allowing the energy to escape.
The Tower, again i believe that would have been a necessity even if the key was in the form of a teddy bear. The 'lock' that the energy opens, would have been at a specific place in space and time, hence why the time is important, and why the tower is built. Its easy to surmise that, the literature everyone gathered about the process, would have been telling the reader that the energy needed to escape whatever its trapped in, thus Dawns Body would need to be opened, allowing her to Bleed, and as all the key people were aware of the Key being in Human form, and that the energy was in the blood, its not beyond even the grasp of Xander to work out, what will happen to Dawn.

I don't see any sort of writing error in the story arc, i don't think there is any thing that suggests it HAS to be in a living form, its just, that as viewers, you have seen the option given, the blood, and assumed that the energy had to be in Blood, in Liquid.....

 

[The Arcane]

I don't see any sort of writing error in the story arc, i don't think there is any thing that suggests it HAS to be in a living form, its just, that as viewers, you have seen the option given, the blood, and assumed that the energy had to be in Blood, in Liquid.....

Don't ask me for a source for this because i've already looked and can't track it down but i recall Joss being asked a question relating to this exact topic and his reply suggesting that there was a tiny writing "hiccup" involved in this part of the storyline.

Nerd4Hire, if you happen to read this thread and have also read what i'm talking about, don't suppose you remember where this was all said, do you? Pretty sure that it was in a Q and A somewhere. I've Googled already but can't find it anywhere! :cussing2:

 

[Wicked]

Spike said at one point "its always blood". Cant remember what it was in reference too. Possibly this but if he knew that then Glory and her minions would too. Once they knew the key was a living thing its not such a leap to think that blood would have to be spilled for the ritual.

 

[The Arcane]

Spike was referring to exactly this issue, in The Gift ...

XANDER
Why blood? Why Dawn's blood? I mean, why couldn't it be like a lymph ritual?
SPIKE
'Cause it's always got to be blood.
XANDER
We're not actually discussing dinner right now.
SPIKE
Blood is life, lackbrain. Why do you think we eat it? It's what keeps you going. Makes you warm. Makes you hard. Makes you other than dead. Of course it's her blood.

But that isn't the real problem with what we are discussing here. The following line is said by Giles in the same episode. He is reading text from a book that gives details on the ritual Glory is performing ...

GILES
(reads)
"The blood flows, the gates will open. The gates will close when it flows no more." When Dawn is dead.

So the ritual very clearly states that blood needs to flow. That being the case then Glory must have always known that the Key was in the form of a living being. Despite that she makes it seem in an earlier episode that the Key could technically be anything at all. That is the error in the storyline that Joss was asked about.

On a side note, just wanted to tell Mesektet Ra that i've just seen the quote where Giles refers to the Key as living energy, so you were correct in that. 🙂

 

[Wicked]

Ah, Id forgotten about that. Fair enough. I was too lazy to look it up 🙂

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Don't ask me for a source for this because i've already looked and can't track it down but i recall Joss being asked a question relating to this exact topic and his reply suggesting that there was a tiny writing "hiccup" involved in this part of the storyline.

Nerd4Hire, if you happen to read this thread and have also read what i'm talking about, don't suppose you remember where this was all said, do you? Pretty sure that it was in a Q and A somewhere. I've Googled already but can't find it anywhere! :cussing2:

My point is, even if it IS a writing hiccup, it doesnt have to be.
I mean we could take many hiccups from that arc.
Like the fact the ritual needed the blood to stop flowing to end, so even after Buffy kills herself, Dawn is still Bleeding, why isnt the protal still open.
Or, why didnt the monks make the key into a rat, send it to New York and be done with it, i mean Glory couldnt see it herself, so what are the chances of her finding it in that circumstance.
OR why the hell not just Give Glory her Key back, unless the Monks were working for the other Hell Gods, that makes them Evil(though i doubt), why not just let her home. How many human minda and lives would be saved. We could argue that it wouldnt be fair on those living in that world....but just because she was more powerful then the other two, doesnt mean she was gonna be worse then them....PLUS immigration Laws are strict in the US!

What i'm saying is that the blood thing, the container of energy, thats not that big an issue, because, the container would just be a shell for the energy, once you split it the energy would be released, in this case the container was the Blood.

As for Spikes, 'its always blood' comment, thats in reference to Xander asking why isnt is something else.
This isnt suggesting that this Blood thing is certainty, more that, IF blood is there, THEN its blood.....

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Spike was referring to exactly this issue, in The Gift ...



But that isn't the real problem with what we are discussing here. The following line is said by Giles in the same episode. He is reading text from a book that gives details on the ritual Glory is performing ...



So the ritual very clearly states that blood needs to flow. That being the case then Glory must have always known that the Key was in the form of a living being. Despite that she makes it seem in an earlier episode that the Key could technically be anything at all. That is the error in the storyline that Joss was asked about.

Again....not really sure about that.
Who wrote that, the monks, did they make the decision that they would, one day,hide it in a living vessel, that it would be blood.
Also, take into that Giles knew that Dawn was the Key, he might have been loudly interpretting it to read Blood, simply because he knew that it would be. I highly doubt the text was in english. It could have read something that indicated blood, and thusly he reather then straight forward say what it literally said, he said Blood.

 

[Wicked]

Like the fact the ritual needed the blood to stop flowing to end, so even after Buffy kills herself, Dawn is still Bleeding, why isnt the protal still open.

because Buffy's blood stopped it. When blood was let, it started the ritual, when buffy jumped into the portal, blood stopped it. The portal instantly closed. Dawns bood after that was useless.

Or, why didnt the monks make the key into a rat, send it to New York and be done with it, i mean Glory couldnt see it herself, so what are the chances of her finding it in that circumstance.

Because the monks wanted to be sure buffy would protect it in case Glory found it. It is pssible Glory couldve found the rat. Unlikely, but possible. Technically, it was safer with Buffy. if it had been sent to New York, Glory wouldve been there with no slayer to stop her.

OR why the hell not just Give Glory her Key back, unless the Monks were working for the other Hell Gods, that makes them Evil(though i doubt), why not just let her home. How many human minda and lives would be saved. We could argue that it wouldnt be fair on those living in that world....but just because she was more powerful then the other two, doesnt mean she was gonna be worse then them

Because if Glory had got home she would be all powerful again and there would be nothing to stop her wreaking havoc in Buffy's world. She was a God. I doubt anything could stop her travelling between worlds. And after she spent so long in Buffy's world, she'd probably have a grudge.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

because Buffy's blood stopped it. When blood was let, it started the ritual, when buffy jumped into the portal, blood stopped it. The portal instantly closed. Dawns bood after that was useless.

No,the ritual doesnt state thata burst of Blood will stop it, iot states when the Energy stops flowing the portal will close.
Buffy wasnt Key energy,Dawn was.....Dawn HAD to stop Bleeding, not Buffy...

Because the monks wanted to be sure buffy would protect it in case Glory found it. It is pssible Glory couldve found the rat. Unlikely, but possible. Technically, it was safer with Buffy. if it had been sent to New York, Glory wouldve been there with no slayer to stop her.

Again, i get the reason, but the Slayer wasn't a match for Glory, not really.
IF the monks had given her some defences then ok, but how many times could Glory have defeated her. IF Glory hadknown of Dawn earlier, then there was nothing Buffy could have done....infact it makes melaugh at how Glory let her live, i mean, look at when she took Dawn, the whole host of the Knights of Byzantium were taken out.
Glory was in Sunnydale following the Monks, had the had any brains, when they craeted the Key, he should have left the town, OR sent it to somewhere else in the world...hecks....even maybe the rainforest as a maggot....anything.....this was a poor decision.

Because if Glory had got home she would be all powerful again and there would be nothing to stop her wreaking havoc in Buffy's world. She was a God. I doubt anything could stop her travelling between worlds. And after she spent so long in Buffy's world, she'd probably have a grudge.

Glory made it clear she didnt want to be here.
How do we know that she would have come back.
Buffy should have at the very least, looked into other ways of sending her home and working out the possibility of repercussions.
The fact she was willing to let Ben thus Glory live indicates she didn't much care about future repercussions.
You don't know that Glory wasn't a benevolent God WHEN she had power, that she was ousted because the others of the triuvirate were jea;lous of her power(which generally comes with the more peopleyou have following you).
Again, theyshould have done it the good old English way....gone round for a Cuppa, tried to sort out fact from supposition then try and work out whats in the best interest of everyone.....:headphone

 

[Wicked]

No,the ritual doesnt state thata burst of Blood will stop it, iot states when the Energy stops flowing the portal will close.
Buffy wasnt Key energy,Dawn was.....Dawn HAD to stop Bleeding, not Buffy...

yeah but they did the whole bit with "my blood is your blood" summers blood. created out of buffy etc. so Buffy's blood would work.

Again, i get the reason, but the Slayer wasn't a match for Glory, not really.
IF the monks had given her some defences then ok, but how many times could Glory have defeated her. IF Glory hadknown of Dawn earlier, then there was nothing Buffy could have done....infact it makes melaugh at how Glory let her live, i mean, look at when she took Dawn, the whole host of the Knights of Byzantium were taken out.
Glory was in Sunnydale following the Monks, had the had any brains, when they craeted the Key, he should have left the town, OR sent it to somewhere else in the world...hecks....even maybe the rainforest as a maggot....anything.....this was a poor decision.

like i said before, they wanted Buffy to protect it. She wasnt a match, fair enough but she's the best they had. After all, she did beat her eventually. If the key had been sent elsewhere, Glory may have found it and Buffy and co wouldnt know what was happening til the world ended.

Glory made it clear she didnt want to be here.
How do we know that she would have come back.
Buffy should have at the very least, looked into other ways of sending her home and working out the possibility of repercussions.
The fact she was willing to let Ben thus Glory live indicates she didn't much care about future repercussions.
You don't know that Glory wasn't a benevolent God WHEN she had power, that she was ousted because the others of the triuvirate were jea;lous of her power(which generally comes with the more peopleyou have following you).
Again, theyshould have done it the good old English way....gone round for a Cuppa, tried to sort out fact from supposition then try and work out whats in the best interest of everyone.....:headphone

something just occurred to me. They couldnt send her home. When the portal started to open, the world went into chaos. Dragons, demons etc. If it had been allowed to open completely, the world would have been destroyed.

 

[The Arcane]

With all due respect, Dia DeLa Muerte, i think you are confusing a lot of this debate with your own private speculation. It's fine to try and come up with your own ideas for various plotlines, to fill in the blanks of an open ended topic, but you are basing an awful lot of your ideas and theories on other of your own ideas and theories, which tends to be a vicious circle.

If we simply boil all this down to canon information, however, we are left with some undeniable facts. Firstly that, early on in the season, Glory clearly was not aware that the Key had to be in human form to perform the ritual ...

Glory in Forever:

Jinx, you robed stud, you're my man! I'm even going to let you slide on the lame toadying on account of you're dying and stuff. (to other minions) So the Key's all secreted away in a flesh wrapper! This narrows the search from now on in a serious way. I mean, we didn't have a clue. It could have been a log or a bicycle pump or whatever, am I right?

Secondly, we know that she must have been aware of the specific ritual for opening the portal back to her home dimension. She knew that it had to be done in a specific time, a specific place, under specific conditions.

Finally, we know that the ritual itself had been clarified in written form, as read by Giles ...

Buffy and Giles in Weight of the World:

BUFFY
I hear you found the ritual text.
GILES
Something like that, yes.
XANDER
Did you know that Ben is Glory?
BUFFY
So I'm told. What do we know?
GILES
Well... according to these scrolls, it's possible for Glory to be stopped.
Giles hesitates and Buffy raises her eyebrows at him expectantly.
GILES
I'm afraid it's... well, Buffy, I've read these things very carefully and there's not much margin for error. You understand what I'm saying?
BUFFY
Might help if you actually said it.
Giles smiles and nods.
GILES
Glory plans to open a dimensional portal by way of a ritual bloodletting.
BUFFY
Dawn's blood.
GILES
Yes. Once the blood is shed at a certain time and place, the fabric which separates all realities will be ripped apart. Dimensions will pour into one another with no barriers to stop them. Reality as we know it will be destroyed and... chaos will reign on earth.

Giles in The Gift:

GILES
(reads)
"The blood flows, the gates will open. The gates will close when it flows no more." When Dawn is dead.

Note both the quotation marks and the script direction. Giles isn't translating anything, he is reading it. For me there isn't much room for speculation. Particulary when you take into account the fact that Joss pretty much acknowleged the error.

Don't get me wrong here, i see what you are trying to do in working out a logical way to remove the error, or at least cover it up, but there are times when you simply cannot get around what is there in the script. Sometimes mistakes happen!

 

[PirateMF]

If the fabric of reality was changed to incorporate Dawn/The Key, why couldn't the text have been changed as well as a consequence of the monks' dabbling? Or maybe The Key was always meant to be in human form... Like destiny or something...

And it seems Summers blood was the actual Key... Since Buffy could close the portal. Or maybe it was just a contingency plan. In making the Key the Slayer's sister they made sure the Slayer would protect it, but conversely, if the Key fell into Glory's hands the Slayer would not want to destroy it.

 

[The Arcane]

If the fabric of reality was changed to incorporate Dawn/The Key, why couldn't the text have been changed as well as a consequence of the monks' dabbling? Or maybe The Key was always meant to be in human form... Like destiny or something...

Absolutely no reason why the text could not have been changed as part of the reality switch. Only problem is that, had that been the case, Glory would always have been thinking that the ritual involved a living being because that would have been the way she always remembered reading it. So we are back to the same problem as before.

It isn't that the ritual couldn't always have been destined to involve a living being. It almost certainly could. It's that Glory, who supposedly knew all about said ritual and had been preparing for it for years, did not know that the Key was in the form of a living being despite the ritual itself making that very obvious.

And it seems Summers blood was the actual Key... Since Buffy could close the portal. Or maybe it was just a contingency plan. In making the Key the Slayer's sister they made sure the Slayer would protect it, but conversely, if the Key fell into Glory's hands the Slayer would not want to destroy it.

Not exactly. The Key itself had simply taken the form of Summer's blood, giving Buffy the "loophole" of closing the portal with her own death. That was less to do with the monks planning and more to do with Buffy seeing the opportunity for herself.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Having read all of this it does seem like Summers blood has been made the key, because Dawns blood is the key, its summers blood which Buffy also has making Buffy the key as well. The key is her blood, dawn was constructed around the blood, and the blood came from Buffy. Thereby making two keys which allowed the portal to close, because the portal only reacts on The key and since Buffy is the key also, when she jumped it reacted the same way as it would because Buffy was the key as well!
It was not taking the form of summers blood it was summers blood, she was made from Buffy!