"God" represented as masculine: "sexism"? (Supernatural - possible spoilers)

[Nothing13]

Watching the depiction of "God" in Supernatural, I reflected about real "religion/theology and mythology".
Chuck/God was represented as a man, instead Amara (Darkness/Destruction) was represented as a woman.

• Chuck=Light and Creation/God
• Amara=Darkness and Destruction

Why this depiction? Probably because "God" was always represented as "masculine" (God the Father)?
It was also related to the depiction of women (and feminine) connected to evilness? (in short: like ideologies of Christianity in old/ancient times, witches/women linked to the Devil/Satan)?.
I don't think it is correct.

Do you consider this representation a form of "sexism"? (I'm interested in others opinions about the matter.)


Personal reasoning/opinion (I put it in spoiler since it is long)

Spoiler

"God"/God the father
The archetypical and theological depiction of "God" (as depicted in Abrahamic religions) has always been represented as a metaphysical/philosophical indefinite "entity "(more correct and not anthropomorphic) or anthropomorphic "masculine"/"father".

Abrahamic "God":

• Christianity: God the Father="masculine"; (the creator? But creation shouldn't be more "stereotypically feminine", like giving birth?)
• Judaism: Yahweh (also related to the god El that merged with Yahweh and El Shaddai etc.)
• Islam: Allah (that was based on Yahweh/El etc.)

Both Yahweh and Allah were represented as "masculine"; it was said that Yahweh, before the development of monotheism, had a consort called Asherah/Asirat (and also other similar names).
There was an early link between Asherah, sometimes with the title as "the mother of all living". Asherah was also related/identified with the Hurrian mother goddess, Hebat and other goddess from other "mythologies" that syncretized in ancient times.

However, logically (stereotypically talking) it should be the reverse. Linking "creation-destruction" to "masculine-feminine": "Creation" should be more stereotypically "feminine", instead "destruction" should be more stereotypically "masculine" (probably stereotypically related to Mars/Ares, the god of war: The epitome of "stereotypical masculinity").

As a matter of fact, the iconography and depiction of "God the Father" of Christianity was based on the Greek god Zeus (successively represented as Jupiter in Roman times), that deposed Cronus (Cronus also deposed/castrated Uranus).
However, the Greek "father of the gods" Zeus, was also the son of Rhea (not the son of anyone) despite having the epithet "Pantocrator". So everything is also mixed/confused depending on the sources.

Uranus, also, wasn't the creator, he was the son of Gea, the mother Earth, mother of Uranus and the Titans. After, Uranus (The Sky Father) became the leader with Gaia/Mother Earth as consort.

The Sky father archetype, the basis of the Christian "God, the heavenly father" had origin probably from the Vedic pantheon where Dyaus Pita (the original "Sky father archetype" also translated as Zeus Pater) was the divinity that represented the "Sky" with Prithvi, the divinity of "Earth" (similarly to Uranus-Gea).

So "the creation archetype" was originally related to "feminine" beings like Gea in Greco-Roman times or Vedic Prithvi, but successively got related to the "masculine" "Sky/Heavenly Father/God the Father" of Christianity with the development of monotheism and of a single "God" that took some attributes of other gods.

The same for Yahweh of Judaism: The early Israelites were polytheistic and worshiped Yahweh alongside a variety of Canaanite gods and goddesses, including El, Asherah, Astarte and Baal etc.
After the Babylonian captivity, Judaism became a monotheistic religion, Yahweh was proclaimed the creator deity and sole divinity to be worshiped. Other gods/goddess were abandoned (including his consort Asherah/Asirat).

 

[November]

Why this depiction? Probably because "God" was always represented as "masculine" (God the Father)?

For the show, I think it was as simple as that.

For the rest, its all fun and interesting to me 😀 so hopefully there is some more discussion beyond what I can offer.

Before reading the bible, I saw it as God the Father (sperm), Earth/planet the Mother (egg) and all life stems from the combination. Space is just another ocean.

I dont see it as sexist, I see it as a natural order.

 

[Bop]

I think God just appears as a man to humans because they typically associate men with leadership, especially when the Bible was written. So if anything it just reflects sexism amongst humans. Likewise although the Bible is the word of God it was still written by humans so I believe it contains a lot of human bias and I think within reason it's open to interpretation because it doesn't come directly from God, it's humans repeating the word of God. I'm mainly talking about the Christian God.

 

[November]

So, you saw it as a sort of Uranos (Sky Father) with Gea (Earth Mother) (But Uranos was also the son of Gea according to Greek myths)

It was one of those things that falls apart as soon as its intellectualised. It wasnt based on anything I had learned or read, just on what I felt.

Now my needs have changed and the direction of my faith is in religion for self preservation and community participation. The choice to believe in an order to the universe. I enjoy reading about all of the different spiritual ideas.



In terms of Supernatural the show, I was surprised they showed God at all, and was delighted that it was Chuck 😀

Amara being the Darkness made sense in my fan mind. Chuck the creator and the weakness of the male being - women. First born vs the last born.

 

[Nothing13]

I think some legitimate questions about the representation of "God as masculine" are also:
1) The Christian dogma that "God the Father" made "Virgin Mary" pregnant with Jesus. I think it was also a reason that influenced people ideas of relating "God=Masculine".

2) The main prophets of these 3 religions were all male.

• Jesus (Christ): Christianity
• Moses: Judaism
• Muhammad: Islam

Jesus (Christ), a man, is considered "God incarnated" by Christians. Why didn't "God" incarnate into a woman?

It was one of those things that falls apart as soon as its intellectualised. It wasnt based on anything I had learned or read, just on what I felt.

Now my needs have changed and the direction of my faith is in religion for self preservation and community participation. The choice to believe in an order to the universe. I enjoy reading about all of the different spiritual ideas.

Yes, good thing for you.
Personally, I don't believe in anything from a religious or theological/mythological point of view, however I don't know if there is an order or meaning etc. in the universe (or multiverse?)/existence or not. Probably yes, or probably there is nothing. There isn't a definitive answer to it.

 

[Stake fodder]

I just like that God here is named Chuck.😆

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

I believe that would be a fair description of a feminist take on the issue.

As far as portraying destruction as feminine, I think there are mythological grounds for it, Tiamat was described as feminine, Gaia was understood as also being Nature's destructive capability, Ishtar was a war goddess. I think Daoism embodies a similar philosophy.

Theologically, Ancient Hebrew uses the masculine case for both masculine gender and gender nonspecific, like Formal English and Latin. For example, The Divine Name for God Most High in Hebrew, which is easier not to type out, is masculine. But God and other spirits, like Angels and Demons, should be understood as being beyond human notions of sex and gender.

 

[Nothing13]

Theologically, Ancient Hebrew uses the masculine case for both masculine gender and gender nonspecific, like Formal English and Latin. For example, The Divine Name for God Most High in Hebrew, which is easier not to type out, is masculine. But God and other spirits, like Angels and Demons, should be understood as being beyond human notions of sex and gender.

I think it is important to define also that Canaanite Mythology was the origin of the Hebrew Bible (for example, the Ugarit clay tables were a sort of prototype of the Hebrew Bible.)

In reality, the Hebrew Bible was based on Semitic/Mesopotamian gods. El, Baal etc. were already gods of Canaanite mythology before the Bible was even written.
Example:

Spoiler

Originally, El (successively Yahweh) "God" was a male god, and he had a consort, Asherah. Simply after the development of monotheism and the creation of "God", it was all changed.

According to The Oxford Companion to World Mythology,

It seems almost certain that the God of the Jews evolved gradually from the Canaanite El, who was in all likelihood the "God of Abraham" ... If El was the high God of Abraham—Elohim, the prototype of Yahveh—Asherah was his wife, and there are archaeological indications that she was perceived as such before she was in effect "divorced" in the context of emerging Judaism of the 7th century BCE

Also:

• Astarte (feminine goddess) became the demon Astaroth (masculine demon). Why? Because she was a real demon? No, simply because with monotheism, other gods were considered false gods and "demonized".
• Baal (male god) wasn't a demon originally. He became the demons Baal, Beelzebub, Baal Berith etc. of Christian demonology.

The history of the "God" of the Bible has been already studied by numerous historians.

 

[Taake]

Watching the depiction of "God" in Supernatural, I reflected about real "religion/theology and mythology".
Chuck/God was represented as a man, instead Amara (Darkness/Destruction) was represented as a woman.

• Chuck=Light and Creation/God
• Amara=Darkness and Destruction

Why this depiction? Probably because "God" was always represented as "masculine" (God the Father)?
It was also related to the depiction of women (and feminine) connected to evilness? (in short: like ideologies of Christianity in old/ancient times, witches/women linked to the Devil/Satan)?.
I don't think it is correct.

Do you consider this representation a form of "sexism"? (I'm interested in others opinions about the matter.)

I would say, no, it doesn’t appear sexist to me. In part because they make it clear that Chuck is just as destructive as creative, and Amara can be creative, but was destructive for a reason (revenge against god). Amara resurrects a significant character, a sign of good within universe I would say. While Chuck goes on to eventually try to ruin the whole universe.

Taken as their original forms, light and darkness co-exist in harmony, neither being more valuable than the other. Chuck shutting Amara away is what makes her destructive, not darkness in and of itself.

So it is their relationship that is a problem, not the powers they have or represent. Essentially, he is the ”bad guy” because he betrays her and then dodges her, letting her get away with horrible things just because he doesn’t want an awkward conversation.

So if anything, light and darkness here takes a stand for darkness, because Amara is often more sympathetic than is Chuck.

So god might be male, because within SPN, Chuck is the ultimate villain, rather than the hero, and the writers used Amara as a point to show hos ”men screw women over to serve their own needs”.

I think the depiction comes from old myths that there were generally female and male forces, both working within the cosmos, like Yahweh and Shekinah ( in Kabbahla), or others mentioned above. Which isn’t sexist to me because it is about balance.

But also, specifically in this case, I think it comes from a way of portraying patriarchy as a bad thing and ”light” and ”creation” being put into question as necessarily good.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

There is a biblical passage that says "you cannot see the face of God and live". God is a tremendous dynamic that includes everything, both noun and verb, that is, was or ever will be. No person in any lifetime can grasp the entirety of God. Therefore, in order for religion to be talked about, we have to have a user interface that simplifies reality., just like looking at my computer screen allows me to have a simplified idea of the things that are going on with the computer calculating register addresses, performing operations etc. - I just never see it.

One of the names of God that remained in the Judaic religions was Elohim. This is a masculine name with a feminine plural ending. If it was all masculine, it would have been Eloim. For those who read between the lines, the notion of God includes masculine and feminine.

 

[Nothing13]

Chuck and Amara were said to represent Yang-Yin:

In theory, there would be harmony/balance between "Yang-Yin" however it isn't really so in reality, since, historically, everything related to the "Yin principle" has been discriminated (Because it has also been linked to a "moral connotation".)

Day and Night

• Yang: White, Light
• Yin: Black, Darkness

Why "Black and Darkness" are linked to evilness? Is it right?
Why is day considered "good" and night is "evil"? I don't think so. But the color black has been linked to a "moral connotation of evilness" (because humans bias? Since in past we were afraid of night and couldn't think logically about this dichotomy?)

Defining "evil characters" as "dark", is it right?

Masculine and feminine

• Yang: Masculine
• Yin: Feminine

Why the "feminine principle" has always been discriminated or considered "less" than the "masculine principle"? (Because "masculine" is related to "strength" and "feminine" to "weakness"?)
Is it also the origin of the idea of linking women/feminine principle with "the Devil"?

Skin color

• Yang: White people
• Yin: Black people

Is this also the basis of the discrimination against "black people" (considered less than "white people")?

Right and Left

• Yang: Right: The English word "right" as direction is also the same of the word "right as true"
• Yin: Left: The hand of the devil?

North and South

• Yang: North: More advanced countries (North America, North Europe?)
• Yin: South: Less advanced countries (South America, South Europe?)

Amara resurrects a significant character, a sign of good within universe I would say. While Chuck goes on to eventually try to ruin the whole universe.

Taken as their original forms, light and darkness co-exist in harmony, neither being more valuable than the other. Chuck shutting Amara away is what makes her destructive, not darkness in and of itself.

So it is their relationship that is a problem, not the powers they have or represent. Essentially, he is the ”bad guy” because he betrays her and then dodges her, letting her get away with horrible things just because he doesn’t want an awkward conversation.

So if anything, light and darkness here takes a stand for darkness, because Amara is often more sympathetic than is Chuck.

So god might be male, because within SPN, Chuck is the ultimate villain, rather than the hero, and the writers used Amara as a point to show hos ”men screw women over to serve their own needs”.

Yes, I agree, they wanted to represent Amara as a victim of discrimination perpetrated by Chuck/God, like women discriminated by men.
They wanted to reverse the social representation that "God is good" and in order to put God as the villain, linking it to "masculinity and patriarchy".
In short: Women were considered evil, in reality men were the problem so, in Supernatural Amara (and to a lesser extent Lucifer/The Devil) were considered "evil", in reality "God" was the problem.

But also, specifically in this case, I think it comes from a way of portraying patriarchy as a bad thing and ”light” and ”creation” being put into question as necessarily good.

Yes, the main point was to portray patriarchy as a bad thing. However, I think that writers, since the show talked about "Yang and Yin", they connected White/Light with Masculine and Black/Darkness with Feminine.
However, I am not sure about the dichotomy "Creation and Destruction", since creation should be a more "feminine" attribute (giving birth?) and destruction a more "masculine" attribute (following these stereotypical classifications).


Also, I don't even think that "patriarchy" must necessarily be represented as "masculinity".

In Greco-Roman terms, the gender symbols of "masculine and feminine" are the symbols of the Roman gods Mars and Venus.

Stereotypically talking, it would be more logical:

• Zeus: Jupiter (Sky Father): "Patriarchy"
• Ares, Mars: "Masculinity"

Why the symbol of "masculinity" is the symbol of "Mars" and not the symbol of "Jupiter"? (In reality, should be the Sun at the center of the Solar System?)

Analyzing these things I came to the conclusion that, through myths and religions, there are 3 main (stereotypical) principles representation of Masculinity and Femininity:

• Sky Father-Mother Earth (Patriarchy and Motherhood)
• Mars-Venus (Mars, the god of war and Venus, goddess of love/beauty)
• Sun-Moon (Rationality-Emotions? Helios? Jesus?)

Jesus is linked to the Sun/Masculine (Mary-Moon feminine?), the festivity of 25 December (based on Sol Invictus), Sun-day- festivity of Christians.
Jesus has always been represented with the Sun cross on his head, as a matter of fact, the 12 apostles were related to the 12 Zodiacal Signs.
The "Western" Zodiac is based on the Earth's revolution around the Sun. As a matter of fact, the 12 signs of the Western Zodiac are called sun signs. Aries is the first sign of the Zodiac because in ancient times it began just as the Sun transited to the point where the plane of the ecliptic intersects the Earth's equatorial plane. That point is called the First Point of Aries or Gamma point.
The Sun cross on Jesus' head represents the Sun at the center of the 12 Zodiac signs.

Spoiler

I also saw that Chuck was called Christo, so probably in Supernatural, writers wanted to represent him also a "Jesus Christ-like incarnation" of "God" in a man. Linking the "Sun-Masculinity" principle to Jesus ("God" incarnated).

 

[November]

Chuck and Amara were said to represent Yang-Yin

That was my first impression when watching. Loved it! I had been gunning for Michael to bring on Armageddon, but the light and the dark predates him, so I was not disappointed.

Why is day considered "good" and night is "evil"

You answered yourself, and its origins are likely as simple as you say -

Since in past we were afraid of night and couldn't think logically about this dichotomy?)

In the light we can see, and what we can see, we can understand and navigate (2Peter 1:9)
Humans arnt always as complicated as we like to think we are.

discriminated or considered "less" than the "masculine principle"? (Because "masculine" is related to "strength" and "feminine" to "weakness"?)

The order comes into play here, Man was made before Woman, Man is that one step closer to the Creator. (1Corinthians 11:3)

• Yang: North: More advanced countries (North America, North Europe?)
• Yin: South: Less advanced countries (South America, South Europe

Hey! Australia is South... Maybe you have a point 😉

Jesus has always been represented with the Sun cross on his head, as a matter of fact, the 12 apostles were related to the 12 Zodiacal Signs.
The "Western" Zodiac is based on the Earth's revolution around the Sun. As a matter of fact, the 12 signs of the Western Zodiac are called sun signs. Aries is the first sign of the Zodiac because in ancient times it began just as the Sun transited to the point where the plane of the ecliptic intersects the Earth's equatorial plane. That point is called the First Point of Aries or Gamma point.
The Sun cross on Jesus' head represents the Sun at the center of the 12 Zodiac signs.

I LOVE this stuff and finding links everywhere back to spiritual texts and practices. Its so much fun! Absolutely my favourite thing to meditate on.

Its no coincidence, its all connected 😀 just presented in different ways to guide understanding. The simplicity of the bible is what appeals to me - hence using scripture here.

One of the things that peaked my interest in questioning if Jesus did die on a literal cross, was an old navigation tool, the cross staff. (John 14:6) The cross staff existed long before Jesus was on earth, to guide the way of travellers. There is so much stuff like this that is just fun to discover and discuss.

Supernatural, writers wanted to represent him also a "Jesus Christ-like incarnation" of "God" in a man. Linking the "Sun-Masculinity" principle to Jesus ("God" incarnated

I expected them to do this with Michael and they didnt 🙁 oh what I would have given to see Micheal!Dean on a white horse... (Rev 6:2)

 

[ILLYRIAN]

When the series Supernatural was originally being shown I did enjoy it, especially the good music but I quit watching it after season four thinking its content was becoming crap. Several episodes were going on about them fighting amongst themselves and being stupid with it.
Recently I bought seasons 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6. Once again I found many of the episodes were of a ludicrous content, so much so that I cannot be bothered with watching season 6.
Which of the later episodes are worth watching?

 

[November]

When the series Supernatural was originally being shown I did enjoy it, especially the good music but I quit watching it after season four thinking its content was becoming crap. Several episodes were going on about them fighting amongst themselves and being stupid with it.
Recently I bought seasons 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6. Once again I found many of the episodes were of a ludicrous content, so much so that I cannot be bothered with watching season 6.
Which of the later episodes are worth watching?

Skip 6. It picks up again with The rise of Dick in season 7.

Hilarious and worth watching (if you like the older style tv).

I want to rewatch the Michael episodes now. I like doing character watches but lose track on my own!

The whole series is streaming for free on 9now in Australia.

 

[TheMaster666]

Pretty sure the Devil is also a dude. After all, the only way a character on screen can possibly be evil is if he's wearing a goatee. Goatee's are 100% evil, while clean shaven faces are akin to Jesus. Except for Jesus, of course, who has a lovely beard.

Is it sexism? Oh absolutely. Got to remember, religion and religious mythology were penned in ancient times. Did you ever find it odd that the Bible has strict instructions on how a master must treat his slaves, but never once does it occur to God that perhaps he should leave it in there that they shouldn't be slaves?

God: Ah, Adam's a bright young lad. I'm sure he'll figure it out, slavery's bad. Having other gods besides me, sleeping around, I can forgive the old dog for that. He needs rules. But slavery, man couldn't possibly mess that one up, right?

5000 Years Later (according to the scientifically inaccurate timeline of the world)

 

[Tome]

When the biggest religions began, who had the power in the world? Men. Who started those religions? Men. Who wrote those holy books? Men. Who controlled religions henceforth? Men.

So, yea. It's not too surprising that the most powerful being in those religons would be a male. If the roles had been reversed and women had been in those positions, I'm pretty certain that their "God" would have been a female. It's human nature, we tend to imagine and create things based on our own experiences, not those of others.

Oh and, yea, men at the time didn't have a very good opinion of women in general. I don't think they'd have believed a female to be the creator of everything. They obviously didn't think that would even be possible. A male had to be at the top of everything because that's how it was on Earth.

As for Supernatural, I mean they were just respecting the Christian canon, right?

 

[Nix]

Just guna leave this here! If you know then you know!

 

[Nothing13]

Oh and, yea, men at the time didn't have a very good opinion of women in general. I don't think they'd have believed a female to be the creator of everything. They obviously didn't think that would even be possible. A male had to be at the top of everything because that's how it was on Earth.

Greek Mythology: Gea/Gaia was the mother of everything, she was the mother of Uranus and the Titans.

Some civilities in the past didn't have problems to put a female principle as creator/generator of everything: Gaia was the ancestral mother of all life.

In Theogony of Hesiod, only Chaos predated her.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

All of Greek Mythology came a poor second to Lilith who came before Eve and Ruby.

To say a male had to be at the top of everything because that's how it was on Earth infers that you were about then, which I doubt as you are a lot younger than me.