"Grave" and Spike's soul getting back-ness

[EveryNiteISaveU]

So, I'm sure this topic has been discussed before, but I think it's something that needs more discussion.

I guess I'm confused as to why the trials that Spike endured really proved that he was worthy of getting his soul back.

So, he was able to defeat the gladiator fireball guy, chop the head off of some demon, and made it thru lots of creepy crawly bugs consuming him.

BUT....How does this really prove anything or that he's worthy of a soul again?

I know it shows his great love and devotion to Buffy, because he knows what he needs to be for her to ever think of him as anything other than a monster. But, how does killing during those three trials really prove the soul getting back-ness is right?


Discuss.


P.S. I love the beginning of the trials when he quotes Nirvana and says "Here we are now, entertain us"....CLASSIC!

 

[Perny]

I think it has something to do with this : (Now I'm just grasping, don't stake me)

If a demon-y creature wants his soul back, it's a slighty different deal than getting a soul forced on you. Wanting your soul freely should still come with a price, since a soul isn't just something you can go fetch in Wall-mart. To prevent any cocky creature to come wandering in and collect a soul, they must go through trials to prove that they truly are worthy to be handed a soul.

I can imagine the trials were many more than what we saw, and painful too. if you are willing to go through that much for your soul, you will be worthy. At that point Spike didn't just fight for Buffy. He fought for himself too. To also prove himself that he was more than just a vampire with a chip in his head. To prove himself a man.

 

[white avenger]

The trials were a test of Spike's sincerity and worthiness to have his soul returned. As you say, Wal-Mart doesn't stock them, they're a special order item with a very, very high price. No one would go through all of that just on a whim. There's also the distinct possibility that his actions were pre-ordained, another one of those prophecies that seem to abound throughout the two series, something similar to the Shanshu prophesy. (" A dark warrior shall, through great pain and sacrifice struggle and regain his immortal soul for the love of a former mortal enemy. He shall become the designated Champion of the Chosen One, and shall defeat the Greatest Evil even at the cost of his own life that the Chosen One and her army shall live to destroy all of the mystic forces in the world. You shall know him by this sign: that the Chosen One and her Champion shall share the Touch of Fire at the moment of their declaration of love and shall,by their joining, raise forth a great army of Champions in the struggle against evil" or something like that) The First Evil seemed to single him out for special attention for some reason, maybe it knew that Buffy and Spike were the an unbeatable team, the one force that it could not overcome, and tried to keep them separate, tried a lot longer and harder with them than he ever did with Buffy and that other vampire, whose name seems to escape me at the moment. Some minor character who was just on the show for a few seasons, mostly for comic relief, if I remember correctly. The one with the crazy hair and forehead who was just there to set up Spike's introduction.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

The First Evil seemed to single him out for special attention for some reason

The First only singled him out because it could not have Angel. The First wanted Angel to fight at his/her/it's side but Angel was going to kill himself instead. Along comes another vampire which the First can influence in the form of Spike, who is too self-involved to kill himself so the First latches onto him.

 

[EveryNiteISaveU]

But spike did kill/sacrifice himself. At the very end, with the amulet. He let it obliterate him at the end of the series..dont cha remember?
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Edit:
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WA ... Where do we find the Shanshu prophecy? Was this found in the comics, or am I just forgetting something that was said during season 7 episodes?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But spike did kill/sacrifice himself. At the very end, with the amulet. He let it obliterate him at the end of the series..dont cha remember?

But that was after the First thing, not BECAUSE of the First. Whereas two nights with the First and Angel was ready to off himself.

 

[EveryNiteISaveU]

well thats also partially due to writing of the show. They didnt introduce the amulet or it's purpose until the last episode. Season 7 was about Spike figuring out how to live with his soul back, and towards the end, trying to figure out what he was here to do...what his purpose in all this was.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Season 7 was about Spike figuring out how to live with his soul back

Exactly.. you made the point in which you disagreed. Spike was too self-involved to kill himself when tempted by the First.

 

[palabravampiress]

Wait. I disagree with the notion that Spike was too self-involved to kill himself in season 7. He stood still and waited for Buffy to do it a number of times. He even begged her once. He also refrained from fighting. He came back and remained alive because he thought he could help. When he wanted to die for his guilt, he lived because Buffy was the slayer and she insisted that she needed him in the fight. He spent a lot of season 7 trying to push aside his own feelings and do what was right -- be that helping Buffy even though she was beginning a relationship with Robin Wood, living and fighting when he didn't think he had the right to do either, or rejecting Buffy's love at the eleventh hour and sacrificing his life. In season 7, Spike was never really rocking the self-involved thing (except when the first made him see weirdo visions of himself; lol).

As far as the soul trials go, well, I got the impression that we just sort of got the highlight reel -- or maybe even the blooper reel. I got the impression that in order to get his soul, he had to fight and suffer until he literally could not fight and suffer anymore, at which point he got the soul. since Spike wasn't the main character or even the main plot of that episode, we sort of just got the outtakes. The point was just to show us that he fought and suffered for his soul. I don't think what we saw proved it. No one (or ten or twenty) fight sequence(s) can prove what's inside. I think we're just supposed to trust the writers.

 

[Airam]

But that was after the First thing, not BECAUSE of the First. Whereas two nights with the First and Angel was ready to off himself.

I'm sorry, but does that not just make Spike stronger willed than Angel? Spike fought against the First's hold on him, sought out Buffy's help and beat it, no more trigger, he was able to overcome it. Angel, on the other hand, turned to putty at the hands of the First, a weak mess. He didn't fight it, he gave up, thats why he was going to kill himself, he wouldn't even allow Buffy to help him, the powers or whoever had to step in and intervene with the snow.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Wait. I disagree with the notion that Spike was too self-involved to kill himself in season 7. He stood still and waited for Buffy to do it a number of times. He even begged her once.

If he wanted to die he didnt need Buffy's help to do it. If he was really concerned about his place he wouldnt say 'just spike me' to get Buffy's approval of him. He would watch the sunrise. But his saying kill me, was just to show Buffy he changed, when in fact he really had not changed (yet)

So yes, for much of the season he was too concerned and self-involved with showing Buffy how much he changed to kill himself. It was still all about showing he was better than Angel.

 

[Airam]

So yes, for much of the season he was too concerned and self-involved with showing Buffy how much he changed to kill himself.

?????? I am just not getting your reasoning AT ALL. First of all, I think Palabra pointed out extensively how very unself-involved Spike was. And secondly, you keep going on and on about Spike killing himself like it was the right thing for him to do or something? Why should he have "gotten over himself" and killed himself?

 

[palabravampiress]

^ Yeah. I'm not getting it, either. I mean in the end, when it was the right thing to do and for the right reasons, he did kill himself.

Not killing himself earlier wasn't about Angel; it was about the fact that there was something bigger going on. Buffy was fighting the First. The First wanted Spike to kill himself. The First was trying to drive him so mad with pain and guilt and, well, madness, that he'd off himself or the gang would do it for him. The First almost succeeded. But with Buffy's help, Spike stuck it out and played an essential role in defeating the First. I'm not seeing how killing himself would have been the right, unselfish thing for him to have done an instant before he did it. He just would have played right into the First's hands.

As far as the Buffy thing goes, well, she was the slayer. She had the right to take him out. Had Spike done it himself, his last act on Earth would have been the willful murder of yet another ensouled being. I'm pretty sure that someone who is torn up with guilt for killing isn't going to want to end life by killing -- unless it's for a good cause, as in Chosen.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

?????? I am just not getting your reasoning AT ALL. First of all, I think Palabra pointed out extensively how very unself-involved Spike was.

I must have missed that.. in fact, I still dont see that. If anything it further proved my point. When it said "except when the first made him see weirdo visions of himself"

And secondly, you keep going on and on about Spike killing himself like it was the right thing for him to do or something? Why should he have "gotten over himself" and killed himself?

I didnt say it was the right thing. I was answering the question WHY the First latched onto him. Because at that time Spike wanted to show Buffy he changed. He just got his soul back, went to Sunnydale and got trapped in the basement. All he wanted was to make things right with Buffy. He wasnt worried about being used by the First, he just wanted Buffys approval. Ergo, he was too self-involved.

 

[Airam]

I must have missed that.. in fact, I still dont see that. If anything it further proved my point. When it said "except when the first made him see weirdo visions of himself"

Umm, it seems you missed where that was a joke.

I didnt say it was the right thing. I was answering the question WHY the First latched onto him. Because at that time Spike wanted to show Buffy he changed. He just got his soul back, went to Sunnydale and got trapped in the basement. All he wanted was to make things right with Buffy. He wasnt worried about being used by the First, he just wanted Buffys approval. Ergo, he was too self-involved

Yeah partly he wanted to show Buffy he had changed but that was in no way all that his time in the basement was about. He was feeling the effects of the soul, being tortured by it, feeling all the remorse, etc, etc, all the while being mind f****d by the First disguising itself as Buffy. he wasn't yet worried about being used by the First at this point because he had no clue he was being used. He was doing his best to deal with the ramifications of the soul and all the hallucinations he was having. If all he cared about was looking good in front of Buffy and getting her approval, immediately after the trials he would have gone right to her house knocked on the door and said, "Hey! Look at this shiny new soul I got just for you! Doesn't it make me pretty?" instead of hiding out in a basement not once trying to contact her until they randomly bumped into eachother while she was down there saving Dawn's ass.