Great love is wild and passionate...

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I've been thinking about "Seeing Red" lately. I watched the AR scene again recently, even though it's very difficult for me, and I realized something.

Consider this exchange:

BUFFY: I couldn't do that.

SPIKE: Why?

BUFFY: You know why.

SPIKE: Because you love me.

BUFFY: No! I don't.

SPIKE: Why do you keep lying to yourself?

BUFFY: How many times...!? I have feelings for you. I do. But it's not love. I could never *trust* you enough for it to be love.

SPIKE: (scoffing) Trust is for old marrieds, Buffy! Great love is wild and passionate and dangerous. It burns and consumes.

BUFFY: Until there's nothing left. Love like that doesn't last.

One thing, this exchange references our little Spuffy and Fire theme that reaches it's pinnacle in 'Chosen', but what I love most about this is that Buffy doesn't argue with Spike - why? It's almost like she agrees with him that great love is wild and passionate, etc. It's like she contradicts herself. First she says that "it's not love" in her feelings for him, but then she agrees with his analogy. Is she implying that she loves him, and understands the analogy he's making regarding love? Buffy seems to agree that love is like that, even though unlike him, she believes it can't last.

Thoughts?

 

[Kean]

BUFFY: Until there's nothing left. Love like that doesn't last.

To me this implies that she views that as a lesser type of love. My take of what she says is that passion isn't enough, there has to be trust for love to last.

 

[Mumrik]

BUFFY: Until there's nothing left. Love like that doesn't last.

This is the crux. What Buffy is saying here is that she agrees what she is feeling for Spike is some kind of love (but not true love), that there are different ways to love a person. Buffy and Spike were wild, thrilling and completely (self-)destructive. Now take that to the extreme - how would a love like that last and turn out in the end, realistically? If they had gone on dating each other, they'd burn out and wind up hurting each other (and not in a good way), themselves and others (which they already have) until they hate each other, until there's nothing of the person the other fell for left.
But we know that this kind of love isn't what Buffy is looking for in the long run, she wants a love that lasts and isn't going to devour her.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

Hm, I'm pretty sure that I've said that before... we think so alike. 😀

My take was that, as I said in the Spuffy thread, that she loved him in that crazy passionate way (since she didn't disagree), but she didn't consider it to be "real" love, but rather a type of lust. I'll come back and explain when I'm home again. 😀

 

[Kean]

BUFFY: Until there's nothing left. Love like that doesn't last.

This is the crux. What Buffy is saying here is that she agrees what she is feeling for Spike is some kind of love (but not true love), that there are different ways to love a person. Buffy and Spike were wild, thrilling and completely (self-)destructive. Now take that to the extreme - how would a love like that last and turn out in the end, realistically? If they had gone on dating each other, they'd burn out and wind up hurting each other (and not in a good way), themselves and others (which they already have) until they hate each other, until there's nothing of the person the other fell for left.
But we know that this kind of love isn't what Buffy is looking for in the long run, she wants a love that lasts and isn't going to devour her.

Yeah, it's like phantom love, for lack of a better term.

I'm going to use a horrible analogy here, so my apologies. What I think she is trying to say is that even though it feels like the real deal, it isn't, not at all. Like a pregnant woman who has Braxton Hicks. She thinks she is in labour, she has all the pain but when she goes to the hospital it turns out it was just indigestion. False alarm. (I warned you about the anaolgy!)

She knows there is some sort of feeling there but she couldn't decipher it for awhile, when she got her head together she could tell the difference.

 

[white avenger]

I've been trying to come up with some relatively articulate way in which to express my opinion of Buffy's feelings for Spike during Season 6, and about the best that I can come up with is this. Buffy was NOT in love with Spike during Season 6. She did feel something for him, however, something that was deeper and more serious than she was willing to admit to herself or anyone else. If we could somehow erase everything that came after "Tabula Rasa," let the season progress out the way that it was headed up to that point, by the end of the season, we would have seen a Vampire Slayer whose best and most trusted friend in the world was a soulless vampire. Unfortunately, without those later episodes, and the catalyst that they provided, Spike would never have undertaken the unthinkable task of regaining his soul, and they would have remained exactly that: best friends.

Buffy fell in love with Spike in Season 7. That's what I saw, and that's what I believe. I don't require anyone else to believe as I do, because I know that there are always going to be people who disagree. But I also know that there are more than a few here who agree with me.

 

[faeriegrrl27]

What I find interesting is comparing this to Buffy's first admission of her love for Angel. In "Lie to Me," Angel asks Buffy if she trusts him. She says, "I love you. I don't know if I trust you." Obviously, her idea of love has changed since she fell for Angel. Has she redefined love since then? And again, in Sanctuary, she tells Angel that she's happy with Riley because she has something with him that she didn't with Angel: trust. So, Buffy has said more than once that her relationship with Angel lacked trust. And yet, she does consider that true love. I'm not entirely sure what that means. I'll think on it and probably post something later, but it's an interesting tidbit that I think should be taken into consideration.

 

[Tranquillity]

And it's interesting that she says "I could never *trust* you enough for it to be love." - the word 'enough' implies some degree of trust already exists - which is actually quite obvious - but not enough to love him. Angel she loves with no trust, Riley she loves and trusts, Spike she trusts but doesn't love... is each new standard of love a consequence of the one before? It's very interesting...

 

[Professor Walsh]

Our ideas of love change as we grow older and experience other aspects of love and loving. I'd be more suprised if Buffy's thoughts on love *didn't* evolve.

 

[thevikingsgirl]

I agree with Buffy that that kind of love won't usually last. When all you have is passion and fire, there's nothing left when the passion fades (as it will do over time, usually). There has to be a foundation for it. In season 6, all they had was the passion; it was in season 7 that they built the foundation. If they had had more time, they could definitely have had a great love that would last, because now they had both, a passion that was not all-consuming, and a foundation of trust and friendship.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I think love is more then that. But passion and wildness is a big part of love, I belive 🙂

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I
Buffy fell in love with Spike in Season 7. That's what I saw, and that's what I believe. I don't require anyone else to believe as I do, because I know that there are always going to be people who disagree. But I also know that there are more than a few here who agree with me.

White avenger, you're beating your head against the wall. There's no point in wasting words attempting to sway the opposing sides.

They will never back down. Neither will we. Buffy loved Spike. Joss said so. We know that's true, even if Spike didn't believe it, and even if the Bangels don't believe it. We have support. There's a lot of Spuffies out there, as you say. So...big deal. Some fans believe Buffy is meant to be with Angel.

If we all agreed on EVERYTHING, it'd be mighty boring around here.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

White avenger, you're beating your head against the wall. There's no point in wasting words attempting to sway the opposing sides.

They will never back down. Neither will we. Buffy loved Spike. Joss said so. We know that's true, even if Spike didn't believe it, and even if the Bangels don't believe it. We have support. There's a lot of Spuffies out there, as you say. So...big deal. Some fans believe Buffy is meant to be with Angel.

If we all agreed on EVERYTHING, it'd be mighty boring around here.

That's the beauty of the show, everyone can see what they want too see. Everyone can belive in something with no prejudices. If we all agree on the aspect of the show, it means that the show is bad, it has only one plot, and one reason people watch it. It's better this way. Well, it's more fun for sure.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

And it's interesting that she says "I could never *trust* you enough for it to be love." - the word 'enough' implies some degree of trust already exists - which is actually quite obvious - but not enough to love him. Angel she loves with no trust, Riley she loves and trusts, Spike she trusts but doesn't love... is each new standard of love a consequence of the one before? It's very interesting...

Mighty interesting, indeed. Remember this exchange between Buffy and Willow in "Something Blue":

BUFFY: I know.. I have to get away from that bad boy thing. There's no good there. Seeing Angel in LA.. even for five minutes.. hello to the pain.

WILLOW: The pain is not a friend.

BUFFY: But I can't help thinking - isn't that where the fire comes from? Can a nice, safe relationship be that intense? I know it's nuts, but.. part of me believes that real love and passion have to go hand in hand with pain and fighting.

I always found this quote really interesting. For one thing, Buffy refers to Angel as a "Bad boy" which is interesting. Buffy was traumatized by her relationship with Angel, in my opinion. So, with Riley, as you say, she gave it a try for the complete opposite; a loving and trusting relationship. Unfortunately, there was no passion. Buffy wants to have her cake and eat it, too but she can't have everything in a relationship. Her rocky relationship with Angel "taught" her that true love is full of pain. Riley "taught" her that she needed to allow herself to open up more, and Spike "taught" her that real love CAN be passionate and full of trust.

It's also interesting that it's in this episode that she's "engaged" to Spike - the same guy who she does initiate a relationship later on that's characterized by pain and fighting.

Perhaps with Spike in Season 6 she was trying to re-capture what she claims she had with Angel; a wild, passionate, non-trusting relationship with "fire", fighting, and the pain that goes with that.

Our little Buffy. She's had a hard time "defining" what loves means to her, hasn't she?

Now, she seems even more confused. Now, she seems to think that a true friendship without passion is what she should be going for - hence her hitting on Xander.

 

[Flannen]

I think it's a bit unfair to say there was no passion between Riley and Buffy. That kiss in 'Hush' was intense and need I mention 'The I in Team' and 'Where the Wilds Things Are' - don't forget it was their passion that invoked those spirits, not the other way round.

And Angel, Riley and Spike all had a part in teaching her those things. Each of the relationships had all of those things. It isn't fair to ignore in order to put one above another.

 

[white avenger]

To steal a little thunder from another thread...

"They didn't agree on much. In fact they rarely agreed on anything. They fought all the time and they challenged each other everyday...But in spite their differences, they had one important thing in common, they were crazy about each other."

...seamed to sum up the entire Spuffy relationship from the first moment that I read it.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I think it's a bit unfair to say there was no passion between Riley and Buffy. That kiss in 'Hush' was intense and need I mention 'The I in Team' and 'Where the Wilds Things Are' - don't forget it was their passion that invoked those spirits, not the other way round.

And Angel, Riley and Spike all had a part in teaching her those things. Each of the relationships had all of those things. It isn't fair to ignore in order to put one above another.

She did not have the the kind of passion with Riley that she had with Angel or Spike, in my opinion. I'm not ignoring the others to put Spuffy above the others. I feel like I'm acknowledging the truth as I see it. I always thought "Where the Wild Things Are" was sort of a strange episode, anyway. The way they acted in that episode wasn't the way they usually interacted. I thought it was a bit overdone. Of course she was attracted to Riley (after all, he was an appropriate substitution for Angel physically) - but I believe in her little speech I quoted earlier she was referencing Riley. She liked him, but there wasn't that "fire" she had with Angel. That's what she meant with Willow. She was weighing the pros and cons of pursuing a "safe, happy" relationship with a man that she didn't feel the passion for.

 

[Flannen]

Well, if she was referring to Riley then she's even more of a little *restrains* twit than I thought she was. If she said that before her and Riley had done much more than flirt a bit and establish an interest then she really should have sorted herself out a lot earlier than I thought.

Either way there wasn't only one thing that each of those men taught her when it comes to love and relationships. They each offered her insight to all of them.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Well, if she was referring to Riley then she's even more of a little *restrains* twit than I thought she was. If she said that before her and Riley had done much more than flirt a bit and establish an interest then she really should have sorted herself out a lot earlier than I thought.

Either way there wasn't only one thing that each of those men taught her when it comes to love and relationships. They each offered her insight to all of them.

No, Buffy and Willow are definitely talking about Riley in the context of their conversation. Willow asks about him, and Buffy says he's nice, and she likes him, and there's "sparkage"...but she wonders if a safe relationship with someone like Riley could have passion in it, as well.

She decides to date Riley because she thinks it's safe and that he won't hurt her. It's pretty clear though, considering what she said to Willow, that there's minimal passion there. That's not me putting one 'ship above the rest, I'm simply going on what Buffy said and implied. 🙂

 

[Flannen]

And you don't think that there's any chance that passion could have developed there because of something she said before even experiencing what it was to be in a relationship with him?

She may well have been talking about Riley there but that doesn't prove that she never, once, felt any spark or passion whilst she was with him.

Seriously, Riley gets SUCH a raw deal sometimes!