Gunn and Wesley.

[Ms.Trick]

It baffles me to see how Gunn and Wesley don't get along anymore.
I'm at season 4 and things are just bad between them.

They bond so much when Angel goes banana, Wesley is even shot once, trying to protect Gunn. They really became good friends at the time.
And now, they aren't anymore. At all.

Some think it's because of Fred, but I feel like it's not just a boy-about-a-girl-fight.
When Wesley took Connor because he believed the profecy, things really went bad.
I mean, there were some tensions since Gunn and Fred were dating but since that day, it is worse!

Fred says to Wesley "I understand why you did what you did. But from now on, stay away from us". Rip-throat poor Wes does as she says, and then Gunn keeps on saying "We don't need Wes, he doesn't even care about us anymore". But...they started not caring anymore about him first!

And even when Wesley helps, it never seems good enough for Gunn, he always has something to say against Wes, some blame to put on him.

According to you guys, what are the real reason why Gunn hates so much Wes? Fred? Connor? Other?

I created this thread because the whole "we abandon you when you need us the most because you did something terrible to Angel even if you didn't mean to hurt him and you just wanted to protect Connor and YOU don't even care about US" kind of bugs me.
Is it really enough to erase the friendship they once had?
Does it erase the bullet that hit Wes, causing him to move in a wheelchair?
Does it erase the fact that Wes was reliable when Angel wasn't?

Why could Gunn forgive Angel for firing them and going crazy and helping to a massacre, and not forgive Wesley?

 

[Marisa]

It baffles me to see how Gunn and Wesley don't get along anymore.
Why could Gunn forgive Angel for firing them and going crazy and helping to a massacre, and not forgive Wesley?

I am with you it Baffles me as well. What Wesley and Gunn were fighting over was nowhere near as big as the Angel fiasco. That is one thing I never liked for the writers to let this feud go so long. Cordy, Gunn and Wes became a family when Angel went "crazy" and it seems that was all thrown down the drain.

 

[StarSlayer]

According to you guys, what are the real reason why Gunn hates so much Wes? Fred? Connor? Other?

A part of me really thinks Gunn began to dislike Wesley because of Fred. He knew Wesley also had a crush on her, and I think Gunn was worried Wesley may still act on that, even though Wesley said Fred made her choice. For Fred, I think she wanted Wesley to stay away because I think she knew Angel or even Gunn would try and kill him again.

I created this thread because the whole "we abandon you when you need us the most because you did something terrible to Angel even if you didn't mean to hurt him and you just wanted to protect Connor and YOU don't even care about US" kind of bugs me.
Is it really enough to erase the friendship they once had?
Does it erase the bullet that hit Wes, causing him to move in a wheelchair?
Does it erase the fact that Wes was reliable when Angel wasn't?

Why could Gunn forgive Angel for firing them and going crazy and helping to a massacre, and not forgive Wesley

I think that's why Wesley was so hurt over it how they treated him afterward. Despite his betrayal, they completely abandoned him. They didn't try and talk to him, or really understand his reasons (except maybe for Fred). I think since it involved Angel's son, they were quick to judge, less forgiving, and didn't want to understand why Wesley did what he did. No matter what he did in the past, it all got washed away because of that act. And, for Wesley, that was hard to bear because it was like his friends and family had betrayed him.

 

[xfivebyfive]

Some think it's because of Fred, but I feel like it's not just a boy-about-a-girl-fight. When Wesley took Connor because he believed the profecy, things really went bad. I mean, there were some tensions since Gunn and Fred were dating but since that day, it is worse!

I think its partially Fred's fault but mostly Wesleys. He's the one that let Fred get in between them not Gunn. He was jealous that Fred chose Gunn. That's why Wesley didnt trust Gunn enough about the prophecy. He could have told Gunn or Fred about the prophecy instead of choosing to handle it on his own and taking baby Connor. Once he took Connor thats why Gunn doesn't forgive him. He stole Angel's son.

Fred says to Wesley "I understand why you did what you did. But from now on, stay away from us". Rip-throat poor Wes does as she says, and then Gunn keeps on saying "We don't need Wes, he doesn't even care about us anymore". But...they started not caring anymore about him first!

I agree that they can't say he doesn't care and tell him to stay away, but they had good reason to turn their back on him. But once Angel forgives in "Ground State" they should have all backed Angel.

I created this thread because the whole "we abandon you when you need us the most because you did something terrible to Angel even if you didn't mean to hurt him and you just wanted to protect Connor and YOU don't even care about US" kind of bugs me.
Is it really enough to erase the friendship they once had?
Does it erase the bullet that hit Wes, causing him to move in a wheelchair?
Does it erase the fact that Wes was reliable when Angel wasn't?

I am not on Wesley's side for this issue. Some mistakes are unforgivable, costing a man his son (at that point he thought Connor was dead) even costing him his childhood, is unforgivable. But Angel does forgive him. He may have had good intentions but he still betrayed them. He chose to act on his own as he always does. Do what he thinks is right, what he thinks is best, without consulting his friends. He should have told Gunn, his best friend, about the prophecy. But instead he lets his jealousy over Fred cloud his judgement of Gunn. He could have called Cordelia or even brought it to Angels attention. Instead he goes to Holtz. He takes Connor and as a direct result Connor lands into Holtz' hands. Wesley isolated himself, and Wesley made his choices. There were consequences. He gets his friends back in the end but I think they had, especially Angel, every right to turn their backs on him.

A part of me really thinks Gunn began to dislike Wesley because of Fred. He knew Wesley also had a crush on her, and I think Gunn was worried Wesley may still act on that, even though Wesley said Fred made her choice. For Fred, I think she wanted Wesley to stay away because I think she knew Angel or even Gunn would try and kill him again.

Gunn doesn't start showing signs of jealousy about Fred until after Wesley interferes in their relationship in season 4. Wesley was the one who let Fred interfere in their relationship.

 

[white avenger]

Possibly some of the ill feelings between Wes and Gunn are brought about by jealousy, but not as much over Fred as their different backgrounds. Primarily, Wes was the brains and Gunn was the muscle, and it's quite possible that secretly each envied and resented what the other had. Gunn, almost certainly poorly educated, found himself working in a team where everyone else was more literate and better equipped to handle the aspects of vampire and demon fighting that required more than just swinging an axe and watching the dust settle to the ground. Wes, on the other hand, was a trained Watcher, well versed in all of the intellectual requirements of his trade, but, as we saw in Sunnydale, poorly prepared for actual physical combat. He found himself working in a team where everyone was a better and more experienced fighter than he himself was.

If you notice, Wes and Gunn seem much more friendly toward each other in Season 5, when Wes has proven himself as a capable demon fighter, and Gunn is more highly educated and sophisticated than he was before. Basically, once the two men could face each other on more or less level ground, both physically and intellectually, they became more friendly.

 

[xfivebyfive]

If you notice, Wes and Gunn seem much more friendly toward each other in Season 5, when Wes has proven himself as a capable demon fighter, and Gunn is more highly educated and sophisticated than he was before. Basically, once the two men could face each other on more or less level ground, both physically and intellectually, they became more friendly.

Yes except that they were the closest in season 2 when Gunn was still very much a street boy-muscle man, and Wesley was still his dorky watcher self. And again in season 5 it's Wesley who throws away their friendship for Fred. Gunn says its cool by him that they go out, he's happy for him. And then Wesley shoots him because he blames Gunn. Hypocritical much?

 

[Tome]

Possibly some of the ill feelings between Wes and Gunn are brought about by jealousy, but not as much over Fred as their different backgrounds. Primarily, Wes was the brains and Gunn was the muscle, and it's quite possible that secretly each envied and resented what the other had. Gunn, almost certainly poorly educated, found himself working in a team where everyone else was more literate and better equipped to handle the aspects of vampire and demon fighting that required more than just swinging an axe and watching the dust settle to the ground. Wes, on the other hand, was a trained Watcher, well versed in all of the intellectual requirements of his trade, but, as we saw in Sunnydale, poorly prepared for actual physical combat. He found himself working in a team where everyone was a better and more experienced fighter than he himself was.

If you notice, Wes and Gunn seem much more friendly toward each other in Season 5, when Wes has proven himself as a capable demon fighter, and Gunn is more highly educated and sophisticated than he was before. Basically, once the two men could face each other on more or less level ground, both physically and intellectually, they became more friendly.

Nice point of view on all this!

As for the OP, I think the whole thing with their friendship being broken over Fred was really stupid. Very immature too. I think Wesley had the right to be mad at them the way they treated him. I think Angel's reaction was understandable, but Fred, Gunn & Cordy were in the wrong. They should have went to see him and talk with him.

What sucked even more is the fact he couldn't talk because he had his throat cut... He should have had the right to express his feelings/opinions to his family. Yes I say family because freaking Angel used that term enough times about Cordy & Wes. That doesn't go down the drain suddenly. His family betrayed him, he wasn't Judas at all.

 

[Marisa]

Nice point of view on all this!

As for the OP, I think the whole thing with their friendship being broken over Fred was really stupid. Very immature too. I think Wesley had the right to be mad at them the way they treated him. I think Angel's reaction was understandable, but Fred, Gunn & Cordy were in the wrong. They should have went to see him and talk with him.

What sucked even more is the fact he couldn't talk because he had his throat cut... He should have had the right to express his feelings/opinions to his family. Yes I say family because freaking Angel used that term enough times about Cordy & Wes. That doesn't go down the drain suddenly. His family betrayed him, he wasn't Judas at all.

I agree with this. I don't blame Angel for his actions. The others though were wrong. Fred herself even said something about talking to him, but overall they abandoned him.
Everyone in the verse does something stupid. For Cordy after all her and Wes have been through heck even Gunn was wrong. Fred came in later but still they were a unit and everyone deserves to be heard.

The throat being cut thing was the icing on the cold hearted cake. Poor Wes no one would even talk to him and he couldn't talk.
I actually never understood why at least Cordy wouldn't talk to Wes. Out of all of them she seems to be so nurturing at this point and I thought she would have.

 

[white avenger]

Yes except that they were the closest in season 2 when Gunn was still very much a street boy-muscle man, and Wesley was still his dorky watcher self. And again in season 5 it's Wesley who throws away their friendship for Fred. Gunn says its cool by him that they go out, he's happy for him. And then Wesley shoots him because he blames Gunn. Hypocritical much?

In Season 2, neither Gunn nor Wes actually knew each other that well in the beginning. Gunn was still in his "king of the street fighter" mode, as contemptuous of anyone whose main knowledge of vampires and demons as a combat infantry veteran would be of an Army supply clerk. Wes, on his part, to compare with the same metaphor, saw himself the way that supply clerk saw that foot soldier: someone who just makes use of the vital equipment (in this case, knowledge of various demons)that he, himself, supplies It took time for the jealousy to manifest itself.

And I for one can understand, if not really approve of Wes' actions in Season 5. Gunn was indirectly responsible for what was happening to the woman who he had secretly loved for years, and with whom he was finally in a relationship with. I'm truly surprised that he only shot to wound rather that emptying the clip into him. If you remember, shortly thereafter, he was just about at the same point with Angel when he became suspicious that sacrificing Fred had been included in the terms of Angel taking control of Wolfram & Hart.

 

[Kana]

On the issue of Gunn. It started out to do with Fred. Gunn was suspicious of Wes' intentions whenever he helped out even when his intentions were entirely noble.

The gang were all too quick to turn their back on Wes because, they felt that his going to Holtz behind their back instead of trusting them was the wrong thing to do and tells him for his own safety not to come back. This leaves Wes in a bitter place. From his perspective, even if he did the wrong thing, he did it for the right reasons. He helps Fred in The Price because he loves her and because she was the only one who bothered to see him after Angel's outburst.

As WA says, Gunn begins to develop an inferiority complex about his role within the group. As Wes is an intellectual, he feels he and Fred would have a connection he wouldn’t be able to understand.

After time went on, however, Gunn and Wes, although not as close as they were, managed to bury the hatchet. The line about Wes becoming civilised in A Hole in the World, is about Wes actually considering Gunn’s feelings when pursuing a relationship with her, instead of, you know, kissing her behind his back and Gunn shows compassion for Wes when a dead Lilah shows up to give them the W&H deal

---------- Post added at 12:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:45 PM ----------

On the issue of Gunn. It started out to do with Fred. Gunn was suspicious of Wes' intentions whenever he helped out even when his intentions were entirely noble.

The gang were all too quick to turn their back on Wes because, they felt that his going to Holtz behind their back instead of trusting them was the wrong thing to do and tells him for his own safety not to come back. This leaves Wes in a bitter place. From his perspective, even if he did the wrong thing, he did it for the right reasons. He helps Fred in The Price because he loves her and because she was the only one who bothered to see him after Angel's outburst.

As WA says, Gunn begins to develop an inferiority complex about his role within the group. As Wes is an intellectual, he feels he and Fred would have a connection he wouldn't be able to understand.

After time went on, however, Gunn and Wes, although not as close as they were, managed to bury the hatchet. The line about Wes becoming civilised in A Hole in the World, is about Wes actually considering Gunn's feelings when pursuing a relationship with her, instead of, you know, kissing her behind his back and Gunn shows compassion for Wes when a dead Lilah shows up to give them the W&H deal